Can anyone tell me about this helm?

[Urban]

It's on display in the Kremlin, I've found info on the museum itself but nothing specific on this particular helm. Does it fall within the SCA's time guidelines? Oh and on a slightly related subject does anyone know of a yushman (pictured below) being adapted/used for SCA combat?

Thanks in advance.

(Helm on the right)
[img]http://textplay.net/img/russ_armory_1.jpg[/img]

Yushman

[Gordon the Grey]

The helm should easly fall within the SCA,s time period,,looks very much like ones done by Windrose or Knotwolf ,, I've never seen a yushman used in the Sca but looks like a great way to get the best of both worlds ,, looks Very historical and give s you protection from blunt force blows.. I would love to see someone on the field wearing something along those lines.

[Glaukos the Athenian]

"Godfrey almost killed me in the Lebannon.... I did not know he had a son...."

[Benedek]

somehow I'm not able to see the pic of the helm......



I'm curious.

[Armourkris]

I made some maille and plates for my sca armour, both for my torso and legs. i cut all my plates from 1 1/4" pallet banding.

I fight mostly cut and thrust these days, but when i made it i was fighting heavy, and feel perfectly comfortable fighting rattan with it. I've heard I'm in a harder hitting kingdom, but I've never fought anyone not local so I really cant say.

Construction wise I'd say make the extra effort and go with riveted or welded rings. Mine started out with 14ga 3/8" butted rings and needs to be repaired after every practice. that said making the columns of maille 5 rings wide rather than 3 would probably go a long way towards making butted maille work better is . split rings also work alright, but my experience shows that they take just as long as riveted rings and are only 3/4 the strength.
also the plates in most yushamans I've seen look to be 2-3" tall rather than my 1 1/4, that'll spread impacts better and add a lot more redundant rings which should make things much more low maintenance.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Maille- ... es-Armour/ is the tutorial i made for my body armour, I've since re-tailored it and switched it to front opening.
http://www.instructables.com/id/Maille- ... eg-armour/ is a sideshow of the construction of my leg armour.

hope something in there his helpfull.

[Urban]

somehow I'm not able to see the pic of the helm......



I'm curious.

http://textplay.net/pages/0017.htm it's the helm on the far right

[Hanko Kal]

Looks like a 15th-16th century Ottoman Turkish helm. The visor was normally given to those that were not of Islamic birth. Those without were born of the faith did not have a visor.

[Benedek]

Dammit....still cannot see the pic...grrrrrrr.

[Sasha_Khan]

The visor was normally given to those that were not of Islamic birth. Those without were born of the faith did not have a visor.

Citation, please!

[Norman]

The Kremlin armoury had been the armoury of the Russian tzars. The majority of the armour collection is still the stuff that had belonged to the Tzars.
Catherine the Great was an avid collector of art. The palace in Leningrad may well be the first purpose built and maintained museum. From at least her time (and realy from before - from Tzar Peter I ("Peter the Great") the Tzars had a very strong sense of history, antiquities, art and history as propaganda.
So the armoury collection was a damned good one and while some stuff has gotten lost between revolutions and wars - it is still darned good.

Unfortunately, their catalogues don't seem to be all that good.

I saw that particular helmet in at least one book but I don't recall there being a description with it. It is certainly not one of the famous ones.
I believe that it may be an 18th century piece.
The details make me think that it may be Indian or based on Indian style (based on comparable pieces apearing in George Cameron Stone's "Glossary").
But on the other hand, the case can be made that these same aesthetics are comparable to some Russian work (including the cloth helmet right next to it in the photo)
And there is certainly not much about it that does not belong in the 16th century -- and it pretty much fits the generic East_Europe/West_Asia model of the time.

As for the Yushman,
I was afraid to make my armour non overlapping in one direction. So I modified it and realy wound up doing a Kuyak of very similar structure.
Considering that Armourkris "play tested" a Bakhteretz - an armour with much smaller plates - and was happy, I'd say go for it on the Yushman.
Just remember to wear it with a nice padded coat in the Russian style!
(in period it was also worn over a hauberk as a second layer -- so that would give even more protection)

As for the issue of breaking rings that Armourkris had, if I remember the pictures when he did the armour, I believe it could be aleviated by reversing the mail pattern.
Certainly riveted mail is always best - but if you feel that it is beyond you, don't get scared off. I have made a number of mail and plates armours with butted mail and it is quite workable.
But we can get into such details when you start in seriously on the project.

[Hanko Kal]

The visor was normally given to those that were not of Islamic birth. Those without were born of the faith did not have a visor.

Citation, please!

Looking for the resource that gave me that one. I have so many Ottoman sites bookmarked it might take while to weed through them.

[Norman]

The visor was normally given to those that were not of Islamic birth. Those without were born of the faith did not have a visor.

Citation, please!

Looking for the resource that gave me that one. I have so many Ottoman sites bookmarked it might take while to weed through them.

I remember Russ mentioning this with respect to Ottoman military. It was not a birth issue -- it was current faith - The rationale was that the "visor" (or "peak") (meaning the baseball hat type thing) got in the way of the Muslim style of prayer. Have never seen the documentation myself.
'Course, the peak predates Ottoman use - the Mongol helmets had them (but that would kinda fit - they were Budhist or Shamanist at the time)
And I'm pretty sure I've seen peaks on helmets in Timurid and other post-Mongol Persian art.
Also, if the helmet was Rajput or Russian then any rules the Ottomans may have had for them are irrelevant.

[Chris Gilman]

The helmet is dated to 1620. The armour looks to be about the same era.

[Hanko Kal]

The visor was normally given to those that were not of Islamic birth. Those without were born of the faith did not have a visor.

Citation, please!

Looking for the resource that gave me that one. I have so many Ottoman sites bookmarked it might take while to weed through them.

I remember Russ mentioning this with respect to Ottoman military. It was not a birth issue -- it was current faith - The rationale was that the "visor" (or "peak") (meaning the baseball hat type thing) got in the way of the Muslim style of prayer. Have never seen the documentation myself.
'Course, the peak predates Ottoman use - the Mongol helmets had them (but that would kinda fit - they were Budhist or Shamanist at the time)
And I'm pretty sure I've seen peaks on helmets in Timurid and other post-Mongol Persian art.
Also, if the helmet was Rajput or Russian then any rules the Ottomans may have had for them are irrelevant.

By style, it the armour and the helms look to all be Ottoman. And your comment on faith looks to be better put then mine, but I still can't find where I had seen that before as of yet(Too many pages to look through and my three books on the Ottoman are in storage at the moment, will keep looking).

[Urban]

The helmet is dated to 1620. The armour looks to be about the same era.

Curses! Ah well looks like I'll go look for something earlier.

Going to change gears on this thread instead of starting another.

Looking over Sloan's site I see something called a Kuyak. From what I gather it was a leather garment with metal plates riveted to the outside. The site says they existed from the 13th-17th centuries. (ETA: This would be doable for me, I think the Yushman might be a bit out of my abilities)



If I did that one with some bazubands and hidden legs would that be passable as a 13-14th century Russian kit?

Any suggestions on a helm that would work with it?

Thx again for all your help.

[Armourkris]

Here's a couple more Kuyak pics

http://velizariy.kiev.ua/avallon/cuiras ... es/002.jpg
http://velizariy.kiev.ua/avallon/cuiras ... Panzer.jpg

both from http://velizariy.kiev.ua/avallon/cuiras ... allery.htm
the largest collection of maille and plates armour i've been able to find on the internet so far.

If you don't want to deal with maille then i'd personally recommend something along the lines of this,
http://velizariy.kiev.ua/avallon/cuiras ... s/op09.jpg
but that's largely cause i think that it''s cooler, I also think it's more of a 15th or16th century thing.
if you don't do all that fancy fluting and whatnot then it's not much more complicated than a coat of plates. i believe these are articulated on leathers on the inside rather than a solid foundation layer.

[Benedek]

Here's a couple more Kuyak pics

http://velizariy.kiev.ua/avallon/cuiras ... es/002.jpg
http://velizariy.kiev.ua/avallon/cuiras ... Panzer.jpg

both from http://velizariy.kiev.ua/avallon/cuiras ... allery.htm
the largest collection of maille and plates armour i've been able to find on the internet so far.

If you don't want to deal with maille then i'd personally recommend something along the lines of this,
http://velizariy.kiev.ua/avallon/cuiras ... s/op09.jpg
but that's largely cause i think that it''s cooler, I also think it's more of a 15th or16th century thing.
if you don't do all that fancy fluting and whatnot then it's not much more complicated than a coat of plates. i believe these are articulated on leathers on the inside rather than a solid foundation layer.

I've perused this site many many times. There appears to be one of the kuyaks that is made from horn, bone, or ivory.....something of that sort. I just don't have time to look for it at this moment.

[Norman]

The helmet is dated to 1620. The armour looks to be about the same era.

Chris,
You seem to be very definite about that helmet. Can you tell me more of its provenance?

Going to change gears on this thread instead of starting another.
Looking over Sloan's site I see something called a Kuyak. From what I gather it was a leather garment with metal plates riveted to the outside. The site says they existed from the 13th-17th centuries. (ETA: This would be doable for me, I think the Yushman might be a bit out of my abilities)
...
If I did that one with some bazubands and hidden legs would that be passable as a 13-14th century Russian kit?
Any suggestions on a helm that would work with it?
Thx again for all your help.

The pictures at xenophon are from a 19th century book on the Tzar's Armouries which is not quite ...up to par on many of its details.
A Kuyak is actualy a Coat of Plates with plates on the outside but they should overlap.
I am sorry that my site is still down since Yahoo killed it (just haven't had time to rebuild)
Um ...the black-n-white photo is me -- the girdle of overlapped plates is done in the style I'm talking about. The period Russian version would just continue the theme (as I mentioned, I kinda wanted a Yushman but was worried about the protection - so mine is sort of hybrid).
[img]http://www.redkaganate.org/structure/contacts/norman1.jpg[/img]
The attachment photo (with the orange shirt) is a Siberian-Mongol version of this same sort of armour (note that many of the plates use a six-hole arrangement to sew the plates to the garment rather than rivet them -- there were analogous 6-hole plates found at Novgorod). Note that this one has a skirting. At least "mythicaly"/"propagandisticaly" you would distinguish a Russian armour by not using a skirt and instead having pteruges (in red leather) - for a Byzantine/Roman look. In reality, Russian armour was likely quite often quite identical with the Mongol (more protection from full skirts and upper arm defenses)
And Yes - a simple Kuyak would work for 13-14 century and Bazubands (except you should realy call them Naruchi if you're doing Russian) come up in the finds aplenty at this time -- you want two piece on a hinge (here I posted a photo of the find from mid-13 century http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=91102 )
The simplest helmet to use for a Russian portrayal without worrying about date is a connical with a mail drape.
Otherwise, we'll have to dig about for the finds. I believe (if I am not misrecollecting) that one with cheek plates is fine.

Here's a couple more Kuyak pics...

Armourkris, those are Kolontar (or Kalantar) not Kuyak. Kolontar has non-overlapping plates attached in mail. Kuyak is a sort of Coat of PLates.

If you don't want to deal with maille then i'd personally recommend something along the lines of this,
http://velizariy.kiev.ua/avallon/cuiras ... s/op09.jpg
but that's largely cause i think that it''s cooler, I also think it's more of a 15th or16th century thing.
if you don't do all that fancy fluting and whatnot then it's not much more complicated than a coat of plates. i believe these are articulated on leathers on the inside rather than a solid foundation layer.

Yep -- that is a late-to-post period Zertsalo (I attached a photo of the back of one I did) - a development from the Kuyak (the Kuyaks often had a central disk - they then mutated with the disk expanding and the other plates lessening in importance) without the fluting the plates are rather straight forward but the internal leathers may be a bit of a task for a first time project (I had worked up to it with Roman segmented armour - this one requires quite a bit more planning to get right).
If you want the earlier Kuyak with some ...Pizzaz -- have a central disk (8 to 10 inches) surrounded by the simple rectangle plates.

[Donald St. Colin]

1100-1250 for the helms. The maille shirt looks like the one they always put on Alexander Nevsky. So its in the 1200s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Nevsky

[Chris Gilman]

The helmet is dated to 1620. The armour looks to be about the same era.

Chris,
You seem to be very definite about that helmet. Can you tell me more of its provenance?

Yes, in a book I have about the collection they date the helmet to 1620. It is all in Russian so, that is the most I can give you. An almost identical body defense is dated at 1630, If memory serves.

[Cian of Storvik]

That helmet on the right looks similar to an ottoman helm, but it's identical to a Russian yerikhonka. The body defense appears to be a kalantar.

http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russ ... ordef.html

And as far as the images of Nevsky, I'd take those with a grain of salt, as they are not contemporary with Nevsky. And it's very common for painters to miss styles by several hundred years when done centuries later (perhaps they don't know better or to make them look more flamboyant or contemporary for people to associate with). Note that Nevsky (circa 1250) is wearing 18-19th century shoes in that one painting on Wikipedia (dated 1836) along with the kalantar and the yerikhonka in the background.
-Cian

[Norman]

The helmet is dated to 1620. The armour looks to be about the same era.

Chris,
You seem to be very definite about that helmet. Can you tell me more of its provenance?

Yes, in a book I have about the collection they date the helmet to 1620. It is all in Russian so, that is the most I can give you. An almost identical body defense is dated at 1630, If memory serves.

Can you scan the page for me? I'll translate.
As for the body defense -- the Yushman style lasted for quite a while. Unless its the specific shirt, I would say anywhere between 1500 and late 19th cent.

1100-1250 for the helms. The maille shirt looks like the one they always put on Alexander Nevsky. So its in the 1200s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Nevsky

With all respect, you are wrong.
The art you are basing yourself on is "post-period" idealisations with the artists thoroughly unconcerned about (and likely not knowing about) the actualities of what Nevsky wore. The level of anachronism is akin to putting William the Conqueror in one of Henry VIII steel trouser armours. In fact, the helmet which the artists most commonly give Nevsky is a specific one -- made by Nikita Davidov for Tzar Mikhail Romanoff in 1621.

That helmet on the right looks similar to an ottoman helm, but it's identical to a Russian yerikhonka. The body defense appears to be a kalantar.

The Kolontar has plates all separate inserted into maile. A Yushman has the plates overlapped in one direction. That armour is a Yushman. See my posts above for further. You can see my armour history website on archive.org (see my sig) for a full set of definitions.

[Urban]

The pictures at xenophon are from a 19th century book on the Tzar's Armouries which is not quite ...up to par on many of its details.
A Kuyak is actualy a Coat of Plates with plates on the outside but they should overlap.
.

So is the "kuyak" I posted a picture a different type of armor or is it just a modern idealization altogether. I'm not doubting your information, just saw mention of what I showed as a "kuyak" in a few different places. The xenophon site of course, but also http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/Armor/armordef.html which admittedly borrows heavily from the xenophon site, but also quotes another source saying

"There were three types of kuyak. One had large, overlapping rectangular plates. Another allowed gapping between the plates that let the leather backing show, similar to the kolontar. The third had small, non-overlapping discs attached to the backing."(Finkelshteyn)

Again not trying to be argumentative just trying to get the facts, the reason I'm asking is I think the thing I pictured would be doable for me, a yushman/zertsalo/mongol kuyak you pictured I think would be a bit out of my abilities (I guess your kuyak wouldn't be too hard, but not gonna like I'm not jazzed about the looks of them).


And hopefully I'm not going to get flamed for this but despite the fact that the helm I initially posted about is about 20 years past the sca boundaries, could I get away with it? That particular one is dated 1620 but would there have been ones similar to it in the decades preceding it?

Sorry if I'm just shooting out hot air but I have an image in my head of that helm with so called "kuyak" over a mail shirt (kolchuga?) it just looks awesome in my head. Thanks again for all the info.

And Norman, I'm sad your site is down, any idea on when it'll but up and running again?

[Donald St. Colin]

Can you scan the page for me? I'll translate.

+1

Yes I'm aware that alot of the stuff in the Nevsky artwork is BS.
Sometimes the only thing right, is that there was infact a guy named Nevsky.

The russians seemed to be about 100+ years behind the style of armor in the west. I always wondered why. Was it a lack of tech? Did the winter weather favor maille over plate? Is it a cultural thing? Slow to accept change. When you look at the litchina face plates, tech doesn't seem a prob.

[Norman]

The russians seemed to be about 100+ years behind the style of armor in the west. I always wondered why. Was it a lack of tech? Did the winter weather favor maille over plate? Is it a cultural thing? Slow to accept change. When you look at the litchina face plates, tech doesn't seem a prob.

They were not behind, they were on a separate line of armour development. In fact, the one piece with elbow Naruch (Bazuband) starts in places that may be called "Southern Russia" in the 8th century. The West does not start on plate elbow defenses until? And, the eastern defense gets adopted as the Bridle Gauntlet by the West in the 17th (or is 16th?). Likewise, the helmet type currently discussed - adopted last by the West.
But yes - they were very definitely into mail, I understand that a specific type of mail was termed "Moscow mail" and exported to the West from Russia in the 16th.
They only get "behind" when they directly copy the West as a result of Peter's reform.

The pictures at xenophon are from a 19th century book on the Tzar's Armouries which is not quite ...up to par on many of its details.
A Kuyak is actualy a Coat of Plates with plates on the outside but they should overlap.
.

So is the "kuyak" I posted a picture a different type of armor or is it just a modern idealization altogether. I'm not doubting your information, just saw mention of what I showed as a "kuyak" in a few different places. The xenophon site of course, but also http://www.strangelove.net/~kieser/Russia/Armor/armordef.html which admittedly borrows heavily from the xenophon site, but also quotes another source saying
"There were three types of kuyak. One had large, overlapping rectangular plates. Another allowed gapping between the plates that let the leather backing show, similar to the kolontar. The third had small, non-overlapping discs attached to the backing."(Finkelshteyn)

The Kuyak picture you provided is the drawing from that 19th century book I mentioned.
I believe that it was based on a misunderstanding when plates were remounted on the backing in the 19th century and my understanding of the artist's work is that firstly, he probably did not see the armours he drew as close as he should have and secondly, that he sometimes is basing himself on medieval art - but he doesn't distinguish.

The "Finkelshteyn" quoted is me but I don't remember ever saying what it says I did. Nowadays I usualy surf the net from work and I can't get into the www.archive.org site -- you can go there and look at what I said - look up www.geocities.com/normlaw I discussed the Kuyak under Brigandines. If I did say all that, that was over 15 years ago and I have learned alot since then. Most of what I wrote I stand by, but I have noted errors and was planning a rewrite.

Here is a fairly full set of those illustrations http://www.memorandum.ru/viskowatov/imglist.html#T01
The particular set we are looking at are in volume I which starts here http://www.memorandum.ru/viskowatov/T01 ... c00000.jpg
And -- the full drawing on Kuyaks is here http://www.memorandum.ru/viskowatov/T01 ... ic0033.jpg
Now, he does show something with round plates as well. But this could have been a normal scale that was mismounted or it could be that he was actualy basing himself on medieval art (as he did in this drawing for example http://www.memorandum.ru/viskowatov/T01 ... ic0027.jpg ) in which case he may have been misinterpreting a Brigandine where the medieval artist had drawn overly large rivets.

At present, I would say that a Coat of Plates with non-overlapping plates essentialy gets you a Mel Gibsonism. And kids on the playround will laugh and point at you. And personaly, I am not at all comfortible about the protectiveness - when plates overlap, the force of a blow to one plate is spread to the plates it is braced against - without the overlap, that force goes directly to the foundation garment - and your soft squishy body parts.

the reason I'm asking is I think the thing I pictured would be doable for me, a yushman/zertsalo/mongol kuyak you pictured I think would be a bit out of my abilities (I guess your kuyak wouldn't be too hard, but not gonna like I'm not jazzed about the looks of them).

Using simple rectangular plates and overlapping them a little should not be much more difficult then non-overlapping. It would require just a little more planning for where to put the holes, a little more playing with paper mockups.
I recomend create your foundation garment, make plates from paper and tape them on first to see how it works.
'course, if you just dislike the looks of it - thats another issue.

And hopefully I'm not going to get flamed for this but despite the fact that the helm I initially posted about is about 20 years past the sca boundaries, could I get away with it? That particular one is dated 1620 but would there have been ones similar to it in the decades preceding it?

First, 1620 (early 17th cent) falls into the "expanded SCA timeline" that allows English Civil War
Secondly, these helmets were certainly in use by the late 15th century. By the mid-16 the Germans were making copies to sell back to Eastern Europe and by the English Civil War the helmet was fully adopted by the Western Europeans (it is the origin of the classic ECW "roundhead" helmet)
On a random look over the internet -
the following two are in the GIM (I think it stands for Government Museum, at the moment, I forget whether this is Leningrad or Moscow)
late 15-early 16 cent
http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php? ... st&id=3458
16 cent
http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php? ... st&id=3459
helmet of Bosnian Visier Mehmed Sokol (I don't know whether that was his last name or he was nicknamed "the Hawk"), manufactured 1560, now in Vienna, Austria
http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php? ... st&id=3463

[Urban]

Excellent, thank you very much Norman.

[Donald St. Colin]

сенсационный! большое спасибо