Pertaining to the Viking look...

[Bran_mac_Conlae]

What's a cheap and easy way to obtain that viking look? Especially when it comes to armor. I don't need so much help with the soft kit (all I really need is pair of viking boots), but I do need some help with my armor. I'm more interested in acheiveing the late viking period (11th-12th century) than the heroic age, but that'll work too. Any help or suggestions would be most appreciated and welcomed.

[losthelm]

buzubans and a spangen helm.
Chainmail or hidden armour for the rest.

[Tomburr]

buzubans and a spangen helm.
Chainmail or hidden armour for the rest.

^ This.

For a cheap yet effective solution for Viking armour, go with sport pads/plastic armour (legs, arms, kidney belt, gorget) and cover it all up with your clothes. I'd recommend seeking out low-profile stuff so you don't have a bunch of wierd looking bulges. When properly done, the only visible armour you should have (unless you're doing Rus lamellar) is maille and a helmet.

You may have to save up to get fighting-quality maille, so in the meantime just wear it all under your Viking clothes. There are some really great looking Viking kits that utilize hidden armour here on the forum. Check them out for inspiration.

[Bran_mac_Conlae]

Yeah, i've gotten the hidden armor suggestion a lot and I'm going to persue it at the moment. What about for additional exterior armor when I can afford it? What would be appropriate and what wouldn't?

[talaananthes]

Mail, a plate helmet, and NOTHING ELSE. Lots of SCA vikings wear bazubands, but these are completely ahistorical. Also, viking lamellar is way, way, majorly overrepresented in the SCA.

[Bran_mac_Conlae]

Not even shoulder protection? And what about the gorget?

[talaananthes]

Well, you have to follow SCA armour rules, but authentic Viking armour doesn't even come close.

Thus, you hide it.

[Halbrust]

Hand protection?

Nothing is appropriate, but I think gauntlets and "viking" weapons seem better than basket hilts.

[talaananthes]

Agreed, finger gauntlets painted some natural or russety color look the least out of place.

I'm sorry, I guess I interpreted appropriate to mean authentic.

[Bran_mac_Conlae]

oh no lol i'm looking for suggestions for SCA use

[Lorccan]

Showing plate armor of any kind really screws up the effect. However, plate armor is sometimes easier to hide than leather or plastic - well-fitted, it may be less bulky.

A coat of plates is a pretty simple armor to make, and as long as your plates are not too big it's also easy to hide. Low-profile shoulder cops can be integrated into it as well.

In Viking Scandinavia, a collar was the mark of a slave. A fancy one meant you belonged to a wealthy man, not that you were anything special. So, no gorget is the look you want. If you have a plate gorget, cover it in leather or paint it flat black to make it less noticeable. If you have mail for your helm, it can help hide the gorget.

If you don't want to wear a long-sleeved tunic, cover your bazubands/vambraces in fabric (preferably something appropriate to an under-tunic, like linen in a muted color). You can do this pretty easily with contact cement (I saw this done very well by a fellow who added brass 'bracelets' - very cool). Even if you do wear long sleeves, this is a good trick for making metal or plastic less obtrusive.

Speaking of "majorly overrepresented in the SCA", huge Rus pants also qualify. As I understand it, most Scandinavians did not wear extra-poofy pants. So, if you're going for anything other than Rus, try a less baggy cut. Sir Haroun's plastic legs might work well for you, if you can get a pair (I haven't looked in on his waiting list in a while).

[CiaranBlackrune]

Speaking of "majorly overrepresented in the SCA", huge Rus pants also qualify. As I understand it, most Scandinavians did not wear extra-poofy pants. So, if you're going for anything other than Rus, try a less baggy cut. Sir Haroun's plastic legs might work well for you, if you can get a pair (I haven't looked in on his waiting list in a while).

Ditch the pants altogether and go Irish! (As Lorccan well knows and very well portrays.)

[Norman]

buzubans and ...

"Bazubands" (persian name) or Naruch in Russian - ie: one piece forearm defenses with elbows started in use in the Caucas mountains and spread to Russia first and later into Persia.
They did not get to Western Europe until the late medieval "Bridle Gauntlet" - around the same time as the Zichage (the roundhead helmet of the English Civil War)

If you realy want forearm defenses on a Scandinavian - you want splints like those found in ...was it Valsgarde?

Speaking of "majorly overrepresented in the SCA", huge Rus pants also qualify. As I understand it, most Scandinavians did not wear extra-poofy pants. So, if you're going for anything other than Rus, try a less baggy cut. Sir Haroun's plastic legs might work well for you, if you can get a pair (I haven't looked in on his waiting list in a while).

Worse than that -- the majority of evidence in Russia is for pretty normal narrow pants. The extra poofy ones described by the one traveler seem to have been special to some ... someone. The Cossacks with the extra poofy pants were realy essentaily post period.

[Mord]

Mail, a plate helmet, and NOTHING ELSE. Lots of SCA vikings wear bazubands, but these are completely ahistorical. Also, viking lamellar is way, way, majorly overrepresented in the SCA.

So is mail.

I go with hidden gear...it's cheap too.

The hard part is the shield.

Mord.

[Armand d'Alsace]

Viking is HARD.
I strongly suggest that you go Vendel or Rus instead. There just insn't enough findings of armour from the Viking era.

[Bran_mac_Conlae]

Well, I'm not going to change my look that I'm going for because there isn't much historical precendence for armor. After all, this is an INTERPRETIVE RECREATION of it right? My interpretation of viking armor for MY uses in the SCA would be bazuband/bazuband-like arm defenses, elbow pads underneath, a spangen or valsgarde helm. hidden kidney belt, CoP, or maybe a leather breast plate with wrap-arounds, pauldrons, mantle style gorget, and legs of some kind (probably hidden). Might include a shirt of riveted maille in there two if at all feasable. So, with that being said, can someone suggest how I might obtain this kit for, oh say, under 250 dollars?

[Eamonn MacCampbell]

I don't know why I am bothering, but it seems to me, that in almost every thread you start, you ask for something, and receive good info on how to do it, and then you just ignore anything said, and decide you are gonna do what you want, and come up with an crappy excuse for it, and then want some more info and whine about being it needs to be cheap...

Man the fuck up, and do something for your self. Find the info you need by searching , like many of us do, figure out how to hide what armour wouldn't have been appropriate. It really isn't hard to do if you use the thing between your ears...And mostly look at some photos. God knows there are thousands of them floating around here of excellent kits.

And don't try that poor college student shit with me....I am a single father raising my kid with no help and make less than 15000 a year and I can still produced a pretty respectable suit, that while not totally accurate...Comes pretty close for what I am trying to portray..And I did it all buy reading the articles here, asking for advice AFTER I searched for the answers, and made the stuff my self, with minamal tools.

With your posts, it seems more and more that you are wanting people to give you a suit so you can go play....Build it and learn how it was done..That is part of this group as well, LEARNING..

[James B.]

Mail, a plate helmet, and NOTHING ELSE. Lots of SCA vikings wear bazubands, but these are completely ahistorical. Also, viking lamellar is way, way, majorly overrepresented in the SCA.

So is mail.

I go with hidden gear...it's cheap too.

The hard part is the shield.

Mord.

If you are going to drop the maille you should forget a sword too. Poor guys should have a spear. If you can afford a sword you can likely afford a maille shirt and helmet too. But that is only if you want to be realistic.

Maille shirts are cheap I say be a pimp and have the best gear.

[talaananthes]

Mail, a plate helmet, and NOTHING ELSE. Lots of SCA vikings wear bazubands, but these are completely ahistorical. Also, viking lamellar is way, way, majorly overrepresented in the SCA.

So is mail.

I go with hidden gear...it's cheap too.

The hard part is the shield.

Mord.

This is true from the everyman's perspective, but we're all lords in the SCA, aren't we?

[Halbrust]

but we're all lords in the SCA, aren't we?

I challenge this notion in that I do not WANT to play a lord.

I offer you a movie quote of "som of these poor country knights aren't much more than peasants". While that is (I assume) a butchered qupte from a non-historical movie, that is the persona I currently want to achieve.

[Keegan Ingrassia]

That also doesn't really give all the merc's any place to be.

[Bran_mac_Conlae]

I don't know why I am bothering, but it seems to me, that in almost every thread you start, you ask for something, and receive good info on how to do it, and then you just ignore anything said, and decide you are gonna do what you want, and come up with an crappy excuse for it, and then want some more info and whine about being it needs to be cheap...

Man the fuck up, and do something for your self. Find the info you need by searching , like many of us do, figure out how to hide what armour wouldn't have been appropriate. It really isn't hard to do if you use the thing between your ears...And mostly look at some photos. God knows there are thousands of them floating around here of excellent kits.

And don't try that poor college student shit with me....I am a single father raising my kid with no help and make less than 15000 a year and I can still produced a pretty respectable suit, that while not totally accurate...Comes pretty close for what I am trying to portray..And I did it all buy reading the articles here, asking for advice AFTER I searched for the answers, and made the stuff my self, with minamal tools.

With your posts, it seems more and more that you are wanting people to give you a suit so you can go play....Build it and learn how it was done..That is part of this group as well, LEARNING..

Hey, fuck you buddy....you don't know jack shit about me and my situation so don't even play at knowing it. I'm not ignoring shit, all I did is said what I would LIKE to try and get togethor. People offer advice, I look at what they said, and then I use what I can. Who in the hell do you think you are to tell me to be a man? YOU DON'T EVEN FUCKING KNOW ME!!! Also, I'm not searching for handout from people, not in the very least. All I have to say is, if you don't like the stuff that I post or that I ask about, then I would think that you would know that the real MAN thing to do is to not say anything at all, don't "help" me, and just go about your own buisness. I thought everyone on the Archive were nice, caring, knowledgeable, people who would help out someone if they could in any way. I guess everyone is....except for you.

[Tomburr]

(and now to jump into this sinking thread and start bailing like a madman)

Okay, a quick, dirty, and cheap Viking suit:

Helm- Hjalmer, or used from the classifieds
arms & legs- low profile steel cops attached to leather/plastic vambraces & thigh coverings- hidden
kidneys- leather/plastic belt or CoP-hidden
gorget- leather, scrap of sheepskin, buckle & strap, two rivets, done
gauntlets- make some from an AA pattern out of some materials you can find for cheap
maille hauberk/aventail- buy rings and assemble it yourself

Just add garb

That will get you pretty close to what you want for somewhere in the neighborhood of $250+. As you can see, this means you'll need to construct most of this yourself, rather than buying it all pre-made from an armourer. I find that making this stuff is as fun as anything else I do in the SCA, so enjoy!

[Bran_mac_Conlae]

buzubans and a spangen helm.
Chainmail or hidden armour for the rest.

What's some good hidden armor to use? I know I'm going to need elbow pads for the bazuband-like arm protection I have, what else should I utilize for, say, knees and shoulders? I saw that someone said to hide the gorget by using a dog collar and painting it black, but could a mantle syle also be appropriate for the situation?

[Bran_mac_Conlae]

Okay, a quick, dirty, and cheap Viking suit:

Helm- Hjalmer, or used from the classifieds
arms & legs- low profile steel cops attached to leather/plastic vambraces & thigh coverings- hidden
kidneys- leather/plastic belt or CoP-hidden
gorget- leather, scrap of sheepskin, buckle & strap, two rivets, done
gauntlets- make some from an AA pattern out of some materials you can find for cheap
maille hauberk/aventail- buy rings and assemble it yourself

Just add garb

That will get you pretty close to what you want for somewhere in the neighborhood of $250+. As you can see, this means you'll need to construct most of this yourself, rather than buying it all pre-made from an armourer. I find that making this stuff is as fun as anything else I do in the SCA, so enjoy!

I actually was planning on getting a spangen with ocs from Hjalmr as soon as I can afford it, but I'm currently using a loaner helm that someone had laying around unused. I'm going to be getting a free set of plastic hidden legs tonight at fighter practice. I got a pair of loaner bazuband-like arm defenses, just need elbow pads for underneath. Got an "ok" CoP out of a loaner bin a Duke Ebonwoulfe's house (might be getting some real legs from him for loan as well). I do need to get a hold of/make a leather demi for my sword hand and a shield basket for the shield I plan on making. Have steel dog collar gorget, but it's too loose for me it would seem so have to use a loaner from someone at practice. Still working on the hauberk lol a friend off of here is going to be making me one as he can get around to it (somomailler, makes really good stuff by the way). I think I have a nice tunic to fight in, but we'll find out tonight how it works. So, now that you know what I have, what suggestions would you happen to have to make it better/more apporpriate for the look?

[Tomburr]

Plastic legs sound good.

If you want to eventually make some nicer stuff, I'd use low profile steel cops for the knees, attached to a thigh covering of your choice and suspended by a C-belt or other similar device. Not expensive, and a good long-term solution if made properly.

Shoulders- if you have to have armour over them, I'd recommend getting some early 14th C. shoulder cops and wearing them under your clothes. They won't be obvious, and they'll get the job done.

Your setup sounds like its coming right along, I'd only say this- remember that no Viking had visible armour besides a helm and maille.
However, you can keep to a historical appearance AND be SCA legal at the same time. It isn't very hard to do, either.

Edited to add- Since your armour should be hidden, the appearance of your fighting garb becomes that much more important. I really recommend you avoid the following-

poofy pants on non-Rus Vikings
ring belts
combat boots/modern shoes
copius amounts of trim on tunics

None of that is historically accurate, and a little investment will make a HUGE difference in your overall kit. Again, I emphasize that you invest in this aspect of your fighting kit.

Historical Viking kits are badass, and there's no reason not to work towards having yours be on the "ooooh-aaaah" level.

[Bran_mac_Conlae]

Plastic legs sound good.

If you want to eventually make some nicer stuff, I'd use low profile steel cops for the knees, attached to a thigh covering of your choice and suspended by a C-belt or other similar device. Not expensive, and a good long-term solution if made properly.

Shoulders- if you have to have armour over them, I'd recommend getting some early 14th C. shoulder cops and wearing them under your clothes. They won't be obvious, and they'll get the job done.

Your setup sounds like its coming right along, I'd only say this- remember that no Viking had visible armour besides a helm and maille.
However, you can keep to a historical appearance AND be SCA legal at the same time. It isn't very hard to do, either.

Edited to add- Since your armour should be hidden, the appearance of your fighting garb becomes that much more important. I really recommend you avoid the following-

poofy pants on non-Rus Vikings
ring belts
combat boots/modern shoes
copius amounts of trim on tunics

None of that is historically accurate, and a little investment will make a HUGE difference in your overall kit. Again, I emphasize that you invest in this aspect of your fighting kit.

Historical Viking kits are badass, and there's no reason not to work towards having yours be on the "ooooh-aaaah" level.

Thank you so very much for the info Tomburr, it has really helped me. For some reason I was fixated on the idea of having visible armor and now I know that for a true viking kit, that's not the case. When I first started looking at armor, I was wanting to stay as far away from plastic and hidden armor as possible, but now it's probably at the forefront of what I want to get my hands onto the most. However, some low profile steel or aluminum shoulders wouldn't be a bad idea lol. I do have to ask though, why is it that I should stay away from ring belts? Did the vikings not wear them?

[bkillian]

Because ring belts are a made op sca-ism. If they could make a suite of armor they could make a proper buckle

[Armand d'Alsace]

Well, I'm not going to change my look that I'm going for because there isn't much historical precendence for armor. After all, this is an INTERPRETIVE RECREATION of it right? My interpretation of viking armor for MY uses in the SCA would be bazuband/bazuband-like arm defenses, elbow pads underneath, a spangen or valsgarde helm. hidden kidney belt, CoP, or maybe a leather breast plate with wrap-arounds, pauldrons, mantle style gorget, and legs of some kind (probably hidden). Might include a shirt of riveted maille in there two if at all feasable. So, with that being said, can someone suggest how I might obtain this kit for, oh say, under 250 dollars?

.


Oh, I thought you were interested in _historical_ recreation.

If you just want armour that _you_ feel looks "Viking" to you, the by all means, go for the bazu's

If you actually desire a historical representation of a viking you should know that bazubands are as "viking" as a barrelhelmet, and that Valsgarde helmets are from that "Vendel" period I was referring to.

[Bernhart von Bruck]

Chello!

On the subject of Norse belt fittings, might I humbly offer:

http://www.quietpress.com/vikingbelt.html

Tony

[Tomburr]

Happy to help, Bran.

I think the guys answered the ring belt question nicely. Ring belts weren't period for anyone, anywhere, at any time. They are a part of horse tack, not human pant suspension. Get a nice, <1" width leather belt with a historically accurate buckle and tip, and I promise you will be stylin' and profilin'. Check out that link Bernhart posted. Raymond's Quiet Press is awesome.

Now, unless you fall into a pile of free money, this won't all come together at once. But that's okay. Just make it a priority and chip away at it a piece at a time. Before long, you'll be getting asked all sorts of questions about Viking gear because you'll look so rad. So don't hesitate to ask questions here.

One more thing-shoes make the man.

Good luck and post up some pics for us when you got your kit in order!

[Mord]

Mail, a plate helmet, and NOTHING ELSE. Lots of SCA vikings wear bazubands, but these are completely ahistorical. Also, viking lamellar is way, way, majorly overrepresented in the SCA.

So is mail.

I go with hidden gear...it's cheap too.

The hard part is the shield.

Mord.

If you are going to drop the maille you should forget a sword too. Poor guys should have a spear. If you can afford a sword you can likely afford a maille shirt and helmet too. But that is only if you want to be realistic.

Maille shirts are cheap I say be a pimp and have the best gear.

When you compare the paucity of direct physical evidence for mail, and the abundance of physical evidence for swords, you might want to question your statement, James.

Mail has been found in the Gjermundbu grave, the Borg at Birka, and at Rus sites in Eastern Europe (Check Kirpichnikov and Karger for more info.). More importantly much of this physical evidence is fragmentary--a few rings here and there.

Swords, of various types, are found almost everywhere within the "viking sphere of influence," with the exception of The Faroe Islands and Greenland. In fact, I. Martens wrote an article about why so many sword have been found (some 3000) in Norway, alone.

But all these numbers do not point towards who may or may not have used this arms and armour. This takes closer examination of the source, which is usually graves. The sort of burials that have yielded the most information here are inhumation graves--boat burials, ship burials, & chamber graves. With one exception--Gjermundbu--mail is not found these graves. Swords, spear-heads, ax-heads, & arrowheads are sometimes found the same grave, but no mail.

There have been various speculations as to why mail isn't more present in graves. The largest and most obvious being that the mail rusted. But then wouldn't other metal, espeically iron, object rust--say, like arrowheads? A simpler answer is the occupant didn't have any mail to be buried in when he died.

As for thinking that mail was cheap, that is simply wrong. Simon Coupland is his article about Carolingian Arms and Armour (published in "Viator" for 1990), pointed out that body armours--presumed by some to be mail--cost 12 gold soldie to buy. A sword cost 5 or 6, where a spear and shield costs 2 or 3. Helmets are not lists. Coupland goes further to mention only the richest landowners were expected to provide body-armours for the troops. This included monastaries, btw. Still, further, both Charlemagne and Charles the Bald made the importation of swords and mail illegal. No, mail was not cheap.

Mord.

[Armand d'Alsace]

Mail, a plate helmet, and NOTHING ELSE. Lots of SCA vikings wear bazubands, but these are completely ahistorical. Also, viking lamellar is way, way, majorly overrepresented in the SCA.

So is mail.

I go with hidden gear...it's cheap too.

The hard part is the shield.

Mord.

If you are going to drop the maille you should forget a sword too. Poor guys should have a spear. If you can afford a sword you can likely afford a maille shirt and helmet too. But that is only if you want to be realistic.

Maille shirts are cheap I say be a pimp and have the best gear.

When you compare the paucity of direct physical evidence for mail, and the abundance of physical evidence for swords, you might want to question your statement, James.

Mail has been found in the Gjermundbu grave, the Borg at Birka, and at Rus sites in Eastern Europe (Check Kirpichnikov and Karger for more info.). More importantly much of this physical evidence is fragmentary--a few rings here and there.

Swords, of various types, are found almost everywhere within the "viking sphere of influence," with the exception of The Faroe Islands and Greenland. In fact, I. Martens wrote an article about why so many sword have been found (some 3000) in Norway, alone.

But all these numbers do not point towards who may or may not have used this arms and armour. This takes closer examination of the source, which is usually graves. The sort of burials that have yielded the most information here are inhumation graves--boat burials, ship burials, & chamber graves. With one exception--Gjermundbu--mail is not found these graves. Swords, spear-heads, ax-heads, & arrowheads are sometimes found the same grave, but no mail.

There have been various speculations as to why mail isn't more present in graves. The largest and most obvious being that the mail rusted. But then wouldn't other metal, espeically iron, object rust--say, like arrowheads? A simpler answer is the occupant didn't have any mail to be buried in when he died.

As for thinking that mail was cheap, that is simply wrong. Simon Coupland is his article about Carolingian Arms and Armour (published in "Viator" for 1990), pointed out that body armours--presumed by some to be mail--cost 12 gold soldie to buy. A sword cost 5 or 6, where a spear and shield costs 2 or 3. Helmets are not lists. Coupland goes further to mention only the richest landowners were expected to provide body-armours for the troops. This included monastaries, btw. Still, further, both Charlemagne and Charles the Bald made the importation of swords and mail illegal. No, mail was not cheap.

Mord.

And only one helmet in scandinavia from the "viking" age.
Just looking at burial sites would suggest that helmets were not worn and mail ectrelely seldom, however picures from stones and verbal descriptions mention them.

I think that it is important to remember that a burial reflects the ceremony, not the day-to-day life.

If you were to excavate a modern cemetary and from the findings tried to extrapolate what people usually wear today, in to battle the results would be less than satisfactory.

[Bran_mac_Conlae]

Well, I'm not going to change my look that I'm going for because there isn't much historical precendence for armor. After all, this is an INTERPRETIVE RECREATION of it right? My interpretation of viking armor for MY uses in the SCA would be bazuband/bazuband-like arm defenses, elbow pads underneath, a spangen or valsgarde helm. hidden kidney belt, CoP, or maybe a leather breast plate with wrap-arounds, pauldrons, mantle style gorget, and legs of some kind (probably hidden). Might include a shirt of riveted maille in there two if at all feasable. So, with that being said, can someone suggest how I might obtain this kit for, oh say, under 250 dollars?

.


Oh, I thought you were interested in _historical_ recreation.

If you just want armour that _you_ feel looks "Viking" to you, the by all means, go for the bazu's

If you actually desire a historical representation of a viking you should know that bazubands are as "viking" as a barrelhelmet, and that Valsgarde helmets are from that "Vendel" period I was referring to.

Well, at the moment, I think I can really only afford the interpretive recreation rather than the historical kind. However, my end goal is to be almost completely historically accurate. For my shoes, I was thinking about getting some jorvik boots from bohemond with rubber soles (ahistorical as shit, but useful for fighting). Don't you worry Tomburr, I'll get pics posted of my kit as it comes along. Right now, my kit is not worthy of even being talked about in regards to being viking lol.

[James B.]

When you compare the paucity of direct physical evidence for mail, and the abundance of physical evidence for swords, you might want to question your statement, James.

Mail has been found in the Gjermundbu grave, the Borg at Birka, and at Rus sites in Eastern Europe (Check Kirpichnikov and Karger for more info.). More importantly much of this physical evidence is fragmentary--a few rings here and there.

Swords, of various types, are found almost everywhere within the "viking sphere of influence," with the exception of The Faroe Islands and Greenland. In fact, I. Martens wrote an article about why so many sword have been found (some 3000) in Norway, alone.

But all these numbers do not point towards who may or may not have used this arms and armour. This takes closer examination of the source, which is usually graves. The sort of burials that have yielded the most information here are inhumation graves--boat burials, ship burials, & chamber graves. With one exception--Gjermundbu--mail is not found these graves. Swords, spear-heads, ax-heads, & arrowheads are sometimes found the same grave, but no mail.

There have been various speculations as to why mail isn't more present in graves. The largest and most obvious being that the mail rusted. But then wouldn't other metal, espeically iron, object rust--say, like arrowheads? A simpler answer is the occupant didn't have any mail to be buried in when he died.

As for thinking that mail was cheap, that is simply wrong. Simon Coupland is his article about Carolingian Arms and Armour (published in "Viator" for 1990), pointed out that body armours--presumed by some to be mail--cost 12 gold soldie to buy. A sword cost 5 or 6, where a spear and shield costs 2 or 3. Helmets are not lists. Coupland goes further to mention only the richest landowners were expected to provide body-armours for the troops. This included monastaries, btw. Still, further, both Charlemagne and Charles the Bald made the importation of swords and mail illegal. No, mail was not cheap.

There is quite a lack of maille in finds from all eras with the exception of Wisby yet we know they had plenty of it. Anglo Saxon finds did not all have maille but we know the law stated for X amount of land you need to provide so many shirts of maille and soldiers. Maybe maille was to much a pain to make to toss it in a grave who knows.


My comment on being cheap was from a modern perspective; riveted maille shirts can be under $200 if you find a sale.