SCA: Do you need some award to display East Tyger on Shield?

[MJBlazek]

Do you need to have received some special award to be able to bear the Eastern Tyger on your shield in any way?

Just asking before i do something that could get me looked down on.

Thanks!

[Gaston de Clermont]

Doesn't the EK shield of chivalry have the blue tyger on it? Seems like it did years ago when I carried it.
Many kingdoms have a populace badge. You can recognize Ansteorrans and Calondiri from a mile away because so many of them wear it. The closest I've seen from the East is what the belted and unbelted champions wear in their respective battles at Pennsic.

[Vitus von Atzinger]

No.

Just don't put the laurel wreath etc. on it.

Declare yourself a loyal soldier to the mighty East.

Of course, I may be TOTALLY WRONG here. But I hope not.

I live for such displays of loyalty.

[kenrickb]

There is no rule against it. I'd suggest that if you are going to do it, paint the whole shield with it instead of adding it to your own arms. That might look like an augmentation then people would get confused. While the East has its army as a whole, it's normally identified by it's parts (e.g. The Great Northern Army, The Southern Army, The Boreal Army, Usterblichen) so depending on where you live, you might want to hook up with one of those groups.

Kenric, East

[Syrfinn]

Check with your kingdom folks. Most, if not all kingdoms have somewhere in their bylaws what you can display on your shields for like war and all, if you want to have the kingdom displayed.

For example, and I do this off and on, but AEthelmearc is red background and the white escarbuncle. I have a couple of different shields with that painted on them.

[ThorvaldR Skegglauss]

In Drachenwald any Drachenwald Fighter may fight displaying the kingdom heraldry, they just may not have the crown on it (that is reserved for whomever is the current King) that includes the laurel wreath. It is no different than carrying a baronial shield.

as mentioned above however don't use it to augment your own, just use it by itself declariing yourself a kings man!!

[Kilkenny]

As far as I recall, the Blue Tyger is the populace badge of the East.
As I understand it, that means we can all use it on our standard - set apart from our personal arms, etc.

It has also been given to a very select few as an augmentation of arms.
these individuals have the right to incorporate the Blue Tyger into their personal armory.

So, if you carry a shield with a blue tyger on a gold field, pretty much everyone will know you're from the East. If you put that Blue Tyger on a shield with your arms, people that matter will make you aware that you have crossed a very special line.

[MJBlazek]

While I was going to use it in the design of a shield, it was not going to be on my arms.
I was going to use two, facing each other, on either sides of a banner.
It sounds though that this might not be a good idea.

[Chris G.]

The only problem with deviating from the populace badge is that you might be using something that someone else has registered as their own personal blazon.

I didn't see anything off hand, but I don't speak herald very well.

Take a look here http://oanda.sca.org/oanda_desc.cgi?p=CAT%3aazure%3a2

[kaiö]

You can do what you want, what's the consequence of this?

[MJBlazek]

You can do what you want, what's the consequence of this?

I am not one to assume an honor that I have not earned.

[Amanda M]

If you're displaying it as listed for the populace badge I don't see why it would be a problem. I've used it for at least one customer that I have made a banner for that I can remember. If I recall it's a fieldless badge? So I just displayed it on white since on a banner that's as close as I could get to fieldless...

[Skutai]

Just don't use Tony the Tiger.

[MJBlazek]

Just don't use Tony the Tiger.

But he's GGGGGRRREEEAAATTTT!

[Sean Powell]

While I was going to use it in the design of a shield, it was not going to be on my arms.
I was going to use two, facing each other, on either sides of a banner.
It sounds though that this might not be a good idea.

(If memory serves me correctly) A pair of tigers facing each other, blue-on-white and the other white-on-blue is the heraldry for 'Order of the Tygers Combatant' which is a pretty damn difficult award to achieve. (Others may say it's a piece of cake but maybe I'm just a slacker) Being too close to that may annoy some people who worked hard to get it.

But a Tiger is not a restricted charge by any means so if you have a herald check for conflict (or you do it yourself) and want to blazon something like: Sable, a banner on a pole yellow between 2 tigers white (I can't remember how to do facing each other) then go for it.

Please note symmetric charges are a very modern thing. The period solution would be to have both tigers facing the same direction and frequently if there are multiples they will be standant or guardant rather then rampant. Check out Henry V's heraldry with the 3 lions horizonta and stacked on top of each other.

Luck!

Sean

[MJBlazek]

Sean I believe the Tygers Combattant is this:

They are rampant.


I think I have decided what I am going to do. Thanks All!

[Sean Powell]

Sean I believe the Tygers Combattant is this:

They are rampant.


I think I have decided what I am going to do. Thanks All!

Blue-on-YELLOW & YELLOW-on-blue. I should know better then to trust my memory. Math processor works fine but I only have 16k of ram installed some times.

[olaf haraldson]

How well are you going to react to somebody rolling out sporting the Tuchux symbol on their shield and gear? Can I assume there would be consequence to that?

You can do what you want, what's the consequence of this?

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Doesn't the EK shield of chivalry have the blue tyger on it? Seems like it did years ago when I carried it.
Many kingdoms have a populace badge. You can recognize Ansteorrans and Calondiri from a mile away because so many of them wear it. The closest I've seen from the East is what the belted and unbelted champions wear in their respective battles at Pennsic.

The Calontir populace badge is actually a gold Calon Cross/Cross of Calatrava on a purple field. But the falcon is what we wear to war.

[dukelogan]

confirming that you are a douche instead of just looking like one? or, being a dickless shit that thinks its cool to buck the system? or being so lacking of any real value that you feel the need to copy someone elses efforts?

thinking that actions dont come with consequences is the mindset of an ignorant or a child. thinking its cool is worse. i mean at least a retard doesnt know any better than does a child.

one day, when youre a little older, wiser, and off the tit, you will understand that no, you actually cannot "do what you want" all the time.

logan

You can do what you want, what's the consequence of this?

[Thorstenn]

Gonna side with my Brother Logan on this one. He has the right or it.


Thorstenn.

P.S. Call me sometime for a get together and good beer.

[Wulf]

You can do whatever you want. Ok not really but you can try. However there consequences for your actions. Go ahead and wear that white belt and spurs around an sca event even if you havent earned the right. Go ahead and put some "tin" on your helm or make yourself a crown if you want. Go ahead and put the Tuchux, or clovenshield symbol on your shield. You can do so.

However the price you are going to pay for it will probably not be worth it. Even if your the baddest fighter to ever don armor in the SCA it wont mean shit if nobody will associate with you because your an asshole.

[kaiö]

Olaf - he lives in the East, therefore I'm going to assume that the guy sporting the Tuchux symbol is also a Tuchux, and therefore I would welcome this.

Logan -

confirming that you are a douche instead of just looking like one? or, being a dickless shit that thinks its cool to buck the system? or being so lacking of any real value that you feel the need to copy someone elses efforts?

These are consequences of copying an emblem made specifically to be copied, in order to identify oneself with a particular side during battle? I doubt that.
And what system are you talking of bucking? He lives in the East Kingdom, and wishes to use their symbol on his shield. If that's bucking the system, the system is utterly retarded.

I also don't see any reference to "bucking the system" bestowing any measure of coolness on an individual in my post. Are you reading the right post?

thinking that actions dont come with consequences is the mindset of an ignorant or a child. thinking its cool is worse. i mean at least a retard doesnt know any better than does a child.

If you re-read what I said, it specifically links an action (painting a tiger on his shield) to a reflection of possible consequences of said action. How can you then claim that I think actions don't come with consequences?

Where do you get that I think it's cool to think actions don't come with consequences? We've never met, I am sure you've never read any of my posts before, and even if you have none of them point to that line of thinking. Surely such a broad assumption of my character has some basis somewhere, what is it?

one day, when youre a little older, wiser, and off the tit, you will understand that no, you actually cannot "do what you want" all the time.

Personal attacks.. from all I've heard about you, how dear you hold chivalric values (courtesy?), I never thought I would be the one to take the high road and you would be spouting insults, particularly after a one line post over something as benign as a "public" symbol.

Just in case someone else somehow takes my one-liner for some sort of ill-guided manifesto about fighting the system or coolness or anything asinine like that, what I meant is that he can use the EK symbol however he sees fit, as he lives in the EK. What could be the consequence of using the symbol of your kingdom?

[kaiö]

You can do whatever you want. Ok not really but you can try. However there consequences for your actions. Go ahead and wear that white belt and spurs around an sca event even if you havent earned the right. Go ahead and put some "tin" on your helm or make yourself a crown if you want. Go ahead and put the Tuchux, or clovenshield symbol on your shield. You can do so.

However the price you are going to pay for it will probably not be worth it. Even if your the baddest fighter to ever don armor in the SCA it wont mean shit if nobody will associate with you because your an asshole.

Read my post above please. Also, keep in mind that what you said identifies one as part of a group which one may or may not be a part of, whereas the OP's question is about displaying the symbol of a group he belongs to. The two aren't connected.

[dukelogan]

kaio

you didnt present, what i thought was simply a hypothetical question, that way. i assumed you were asking a hypothetical question (what could happen) following a hypothetical statement (you can do what you want to) so i responded as such. i took your question as that and answered it. if someone did wear something they didnt have the "right" to the consequences could be a, b, c. if they did so willingly and knowingly, and assumed there would be no consequences for their behavior they would clearly be acting in an immature way and would really not understand until such time as they grew up and matured.

i wasnt attacking you, but rather, the hypothetical person posed by your question. i have no idea who you are nor do i know anything about you so could i attack you? sorry if it came across that way but i assure you it wasnt my intent.

in response to your statements/questions below if the east has some sort of populace symbol or badge of course someone can display it. they can display most items related to their kingdoms heraldry without worrying about anyone getting bent out of shape so long as they dont use certain elements (laurel wreath, crown, etc). a good example, if youve been to pennsic, is the amount of cats from the midrealm that have shields painted with something very close tot he mids arms.

if someone unwittingly painted some of those "restricted" things on their shield or whatever the "consequences" would probably only be someone else pulling them aside and educating them.

anyway, i hope you understand that i wasnt attacking you, but rather, the hypothetical person i thought your question/statement presented. i should have/could have made that more clear.

regards
logan

Olaf - he lives in the East, therefore I'm going to assume that the guy sporting the Tuchux symbol is also a Tuchux, and therefore I would welcome this.

Logan -

confirming that you are a douche instead of just looking like one? or, being a dickless shit that thinks its cool to buck the system? or being so lacking of any real value that you feel the need to copy someone elses efforts?

These are consequences of copying an emblem made specifically to be copied, in order to identify oneself with a particular side during battle? I doubt that.
And what system are you talking of bucking? He lives in the East Kingdom, and wishes to use their symbol on his shield. If that's bucking the system, the system is utterly retarded.

I also don't see any reference to "bucking the system" bestowing any measure of coolness on an individual in my post. Are you reading the right post?

thinking that actions dont come with consequences is the mindset of an ignorant or a child. thinking its cool is worse. i mean at least a retard doesnt know any better than does a child.

If you re-read what I said, it specifically links an action (painting a tiger on his shield) to a reflection of possible consequences of said action. How can you then claim that I think actions don't come with consequences?

Where do you get that I think it's cool to think actions don't come with consequences? We've never met, I am sure you've never read any of my posts before, and even if you have none of them point to that line of thinking. Surely such a broad assumption of my character has some basis somewhere, what is it?

one day, when youre a little older, wiser, and off the tit, you will understand that no, you actually cannot "do what you want" all the time.

Personal attacks.. from all I've heard about you, how dear you hold chivalric values (courtesy?), I never thought I would be the one to take the high road and you would be spouting insults, particularly after a one line post over something as benign as a "public" symbol.

Just in case someone else somehow takes my one-liner for some sort of ill-guided manifesto about fighting the system or coolness or anything asinine like that, what I meant is that he can use the EK symbol however he sees fit, as he lives in the EK. What could be the consequence of using the symbol of your kingdom?

[Cian of Storvik]

Just be one of the cool kids on your block and paint a seahorse on your shield.

I know of atleast 3 people from northern Atlantia (besides myself) that like to show national pride on their heaters.
-Cian

[MJBlazek]

Just be one of the cool kids on your block and paint a seahorse on your shield.

I know of atleast 3 people from northern Atlantia (besides myself) that like to show national pride on their heaters.
-Cian

I might get some funny looks with a Seahorse on my shield up here.

Though I am sure a good friend of mine, who is a transplanted Atlantian Chiv. would get a huge kick out of it.

[Tailoress]

Derailment, I'm sorry, but I have to ask: Can I use a Laurel wreath on a pennon? I'm a member of the Order of the Laurel and am trying to design a banner/pennon. I already plan to use the blue tyger in one section, (so go for it, MJBlazek!), my arms in another section, and would like to in some way use the Laurel wreath. (Which is out of character in a way, because I hardly ever wear regalia.)

So, what may I or may I not do wrt: laurel wreathes on a banner?

Thanks,
Tasha

[Amanda M]

I've put them on people's banners before. >_> To my knowledge the only restriction in their use is that you can't register arms with a laurel wreath unless it's for an SCA group. I have seen them used in heraldic garments though tons of times for mantles on elevation and such. I've put them on people's personal banners before as a separate charge so it doesn't look like it might be meant to denote a group. Also, some kingdoms won't allow an individual to display a group's arms (have to use the populace badge instead) unless they're an officer of a certain type or a reigning crown/coronet. So I would say if there's nothing against using it in your Kingdom's sumptuary laws, go for it.

[D. Sebastian]

If it is all by it self (a laurel wreath on a solid color background) people will know what it means. Anything else added to it and people will be asking "What group (Barnoy, Shire, etc) is that?"

Derailment, I'm sorry, but I have to ask: Can I use a Laurel wreath on a pennon? I'm a member of the Order of the Laurel and am trying to design a banner/pennon. I already plan to use the blue tyger in one section, (so go for it, MJBlazek!), my arms in another section, and would like to in some way use the Laurel wreath. (Which is out of character in a way, because I hardly ever wear regalia.)

So, what may I or may I not do wrt: laurel wreathes on a banner?

Thanks,
Tasha

[D. Sebastian]

The EK Populace Badge is (Fieldless) A tyger passant azure.
(When displayed on a rondel the rondel is normally Or.)"


[img]http://www.eastkingdom.org/chamberlain/tyger.gif[/img]

or on a bezant:


(populace badge as interpreted by Thorgrimr of Dragonsspine )



So if you put that on a shield, you'll be fine.
If you embellish it, it will no longer be the populace badge.

Do you need to have received some special award to be able to bear the Eastern Tyger on your shield in any way?

Just asking before i do something that could get me looked down on.

Thanks!

[MJBlazek]

I've put them on people's banners before. >_> To my knowledge the only restriction in their use is that you can't register arms with a laurel wreath unless it's for an SCA group. I have seen them used in heraldic garments though tons of times for mantles on elevation and such. I've put them on people's personal banners before as a separate charge so it doesn't look like it might be meant to denote a group. Also, some kingdoms won't allow an individual to display a group's arms (have to use the populace badge instead) unless they're an officer of a certain type or a reigning crown/coronet. So I would say if there's nothing against using it in your Kingdom's sumptuary laws, go for it.

From:http://schuldy.org/fieldguide.html#sumptuary

"Laurel wreaths on non-Laurels or the arms of non-groups True .
By law and custom, the Laurel Wreath as a personal heraldic adornment is reserved to members of the Order of the Laurel. Confusingly, the use of Laurel Wreaths on coats of arms is required and reserved for territorial groups in the SCA."

[Tailoress]

If it is all by it self (a laurel wreath on a solid color background) people will know what it means. Anything else added to it and people will be asking "What group (Barnoy, Shire, etc) is that?"

OK, so if I took the blue tyger and put the Laurel wreath around it, would it be unallowable or would it just be confusing but allowable?

-Tasha

[Amanda M]

Rule wise I think just confusing? Because you weren't actually submitting it.

[D. Sebastian]

That's a good question.

Hrmmmmm...
I think it would make an awesome "tails" of a coin!


Because the Tyger is the Pop badge, I think it would come across as "The Laurels' of the EK badge", and not the badge for an individual.
YMMV

If it is all by it self (a laurel wreath on a solid color background) people will know what it means. Anything else added to it and people will be asking "What group (Barnoy, Shire, etc) is that?"

OK, so if I took the blue tyger and put the Laurel wreath around it, would it be unallowable or would it just be confusing but allowable?

-Tasha