German Company making welded mail

Thaddeus · Post by **Thaddeus** » Sat Jan 13, 2001 4:36 pm

Okay folks I was sitting here at the computer reading the archive and my wife handed me an envelope and said "I think its CHAINMAIL!". Sure enough the guys at Ziegler metal works sent me a sample of their work, I hadnt heard back from my email request and had kind of given up. At first glance it is awesome. I have two swatches of mail here one is 10mm Dia (about 3/8") the other is I think their 7mm weave. It is Stainless Steel, and welded. A full shirt can be seen on my post on the rivetted mail thread. I will do some destructive testing this evening and report back. I will also try to get ahold of a friends digital camera and post some picks. I will be calling Ziegler on monday morning and to order a shirt and coif, if people are interested in this relatively inauthentic mail then I will ask about mass orders and such.

Trevor · Post by **Trevor** » Sun Jan 14, 2001 10:28 am

Boy, I thought this would eke out a bigger response than this! Let us know if they can make anything other than flat sheets.

Trevor

Destichado · Post by **Destichado** » Sun Jan 14, 2001 10:55 am

WOW!!!

Now, I need to find out how they do this...

What are their prices like???

sarnac · Post by **sarnac** » Sun Jan 14, 2001 1:42 pm

actually the post about rivited maile posted their website already.
But....

When you find out the price, please post it. If the price is right I would be interested.

Lord Jack · Post by **Lord Jack** » Sun Jan 14, 2001 1:49 pm

Everything at their website was cool but two, very important, questions go unanswered. Price per shirt if 1 is ordered and price per shirt if we order say 20+ shirts.

As far as strength goes it just doest get much better than welded stainless

They also makes 'trousers' but that isnt what I would call historic. Would prefer, and it would save a lot of weight and time, the two piece chauces myself. I wonder if they have a machine making this stuff. They sell linear maille cloth ~40 links wide.

I think people are interested so it cant hurt to ask about the pricing on Monday. It would be nice if someone out there in the 'interested' pool spoke German, I remember you saying their English was only slightly better than your German

Harold the Bear · Post by **Harold the Bear** » Sun Jan 14, 2001 3:04 pm

I speak German, if service is needed i will render it

BTW it is required to learn english in most or all german schools, i'm sure they will speak english as well.
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For the Glory of Ludwig Von Bayern, True King of Bavaria and next to the Throne of the Holy Roman Empire!
Harold

[This message has been edited by Harold the Bear (edited 01-14-2001).]

Kalle Ommer · Post by **Kalle Ommer** » Mon Jan 15, 2001 11:37 am

That is right. It is required to learn english in all german schools.
Do you have link to that company?

I would be very interested in it, because I am living in Germany ;-)

Greetings

Kalle

Kalle Ommer · Post by **Kalle Ommer** » Mon Jan 15, 2001 11:41 am

Oh, I forgot. I do speak german - could be because I am german ;-)

If you have any questions, I would translate them or would phone the company and ask them for you.
Beware shipping to U.S. is a pain in the a## from around here.

Kalle

Harold the Bear · Post by **Harold the Bear** » Mon Jan 15, 2001 11:46 am

Hey Kalle how you doing

I was intrested in Moving to Germany in a couple of years. I having a horrible time trying to find real estate or even decent lodgings in Bayern, like the area of Augsburg or Munchen. Could you help me out, email me please if you can help.

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For the Glory of Ludwig Von Bayern, True King of Bavaria and next to the Throne of the Holy Roman Empire!
Harold

Thaddeus · Post by **Thaddeus** » Mon Jan 15, 2001 12:44 pm

Thanks all for the offers to help. Kalle the company is located in Illingen is this by any chance near you? Here is the web site: http://www.ziegler-metallgewebe.de/englisch.htm The price for a shirt European size 48-50 US size 44 chest, knee length with short sleeves was 365.00 Euro, which worked out to about $345 US.

Templar Bob, have you had any luck with your enquiries to this company?

Kalle what kind of a pain in the a$$ can shipping be, I have a possible solution for myself but I am curious.

Magmaforge · Post by **Magmaforge** » Mon Jan 15, 2001 1:02 pm

Now, is this 14,16,18 ga wire? could you give me a close equivalent? I would think 18ga welded would easily be as strong as 16ga.butted mail.
BTW, I saw a hauberk yesterday of riveted 18ga. everyone I talk to told me it was impossible to rivet smaller than 16ga wire. It was a beautiful piece from Italy.

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Magmaforge
The Three Rules of Life
1) Shoot first, ask questions later
2) Women and children first
3) Pillage, _then_ burn

Sinric · Post by **Sinric** » Mon Jan 15, 2001 1:39 pm

Thaddeus:

Any chance that they would make a shirt out of uncoated mild steel?

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Craig Nadler
cwn@nh.ultranet.com
http://www.eskimo.com/~cwn/

Dwarlock · Post by **Dwarlock** » Mon Jan 15, 2001 4:38 pm

Magmaforge you need to see more historic stuff, some rivited maille is actualy 22 gauge or smaller. absolutely crazy stuff.

Thaddeus · Post by **Thaddeus** » Mon Jan 15, 2001 6:52 pm

Sinric, I think they only produce stainless as they are either using raw material for used for the food processing industry or they are producing the mail shirts as a sideline to providing for the processing industry. However, they do mention that they can "age" the metal with a special process. ???? any thoughts on what king of results that might produce? I have some samples you could toy with if you would like.
The wire on the 10mm mesh is listed as 1.2 mm diameter, about 17ga. The samples that I have, a swatch of the 10mm stuff and a swatch of the 7mm are pretty strong. They are butted and somehow resistance welded at the join. I am used to looking at 3/8 14ga consequently this stuff looks kind of thin, but it seems more than adequate for sca or live stell combat.

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It's not the years it's the mileage.

Dmitriy · Post by **Dmitriy** » Mon Jan 15, 2001 7:34 pm

Sinric -- if you are looking for a mild steel welded shirt, e-mail me privately..

-D

Kalle Ommer · Post by **Kalle Ommer** » Tue Jan 16, 2001 10:52 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Thaddeus:
Thanks all for the offers to help. Kalle the company is located in Illingen is this by any chance near you? Here is the web site: http://www.ziegler-metallgewebe.de/englisch.htm The price for a shirt European size 48-50 US size 44 chest, knee length with short sleeves was 365.00 Euro, which worked out to about $345 US.

Templar Bob, have you had any luck with your enquiries to this company?

Kalle what kind of a pain in the a$$ can shipping be, I have a possible solution for myself but I am curious.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thaddeus, Illingen is about 400-450 km away from Cologne(where I life). As for shipping - I don't know how much it would precisely cost to ship something that heavy to a U.S. adress, but I should be quite expansive. And than is the problem with duance/taxes.
Best thing should be to ask them if the could send it as a gift.

Harold, Munich is about 650 km away. Sorry, but I don't know to many people there ;-(

Kalle

Arland · Post by **Arland** » Tue Jan 16, 2001 12:25 pm

You guys need to get in touch with some US Service members in Germany. You can cut 17% off the top with a VAT form. Not to mention they can ship things from an APO, which means you pay for shipping from New York, not Germany.

Check with James Schwartz or Giles of Redhugh they're both in the Army and in Germany. They might be able to help you.

Baron Arland the Bastard

Templar Bob/De Tyre · Post by **Templar Bob/De Tyre** » Tue Jan 16, 2001 4:20 pm

Bumping this one up to the top!

Thaddeus, sent an e-mail to you regarding this. This stuff seems on the same order of strength as the mail made by Master Knut Oststrum in Atenveldt, but at half the price. I know---I owned one of his shirts. Had to sell it to pay for the closing costs on my house about four years ago.

Sure would love to own another shirt like this one!

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Robert Coleman, Jr.

The Noble Companie and Order of St. Maurice

Those who beat their swords into plowshares end up plowing for those who don't.

Thaddeus · Post by **Thaddeus** » Tue Jan 16, 2001 10:07 pm

Bump

Here is a scan of the 10mm mail I took this afternoon. [img]http://pie.keene.edu/students/trogers/mail3.jpg[/img]
You can see that it appears to be butted and then resistance welded, possibly a charged run throught the coil of wire as it is knitted. There is slight discoloration at butt ends of several links.
UPDATE: I received the price list from Mr. Ziegler this morning in an Excel Spreadsheet form. I can email it to interested parties. Please drop me a line with any questions and let me know that you would like a copy of the list.

[This message has been edited by Thaddeus (edited 01-17-2001).]

Baron Logan · Post by **Baron Logan** » Wed Jan 17, 2001 9:36 am

OK

Those of you who have the excel spreadsheet out there I'd like to get your opinion on some things.

First question is what's the difference between ROMAN ALSO KIND and NORMANNIAN ALSO KIND?

Second I think all the measurements on the Ready to Wear shirts are done on people with work clothes (T-shirts or equivalent). I'm looking at the ready to wear shirts and thinking about getting the size 60 in order to get the 60 cm armhole. Anything smaller and I think I might be fighting the mail to lift my arm over my head. I fact I think I'm a fairly average size at six foot wearing a size 44 coat and the measurements on most of those ready to wear shirts don't come close. So I'm going big to be sure.

I'm ready to order right now. If anyone else in the Middle Kingdom wants to do a bulk order with me let me know. We can distribute the shirts at events. I'd like to get a shirt right now and then buy more with a big armor archive order. I'd also like to get mine before Gulf Wars.

Logan
Mackenzie@wmich.edu

Kalle Ommer · Post by **Kalle Ommer** » Wed Jan 17, 2001 9:52 am

I looked up there site and as far as I understand it, the make the shirts not in one size fits all, but to your masurements. The prize is calculated by the size of ring meash needed.
A friend of mine has a shirt made by Ziegler and I was able to handle it. The meash (both the 7mm as well as the 10 mm) is strong.

The produce security clothing for butchers. The smallest ring size is 4 mm with a wirestrength of 0.5 mm (don't know what this means in gauge).

If you can send these things via APO do it. This will lower the prizes dramatically.

At the german part of his site he states that all prizes include shipping inside Germany - haven't checked the enlish stite ;-)

If you are planning to do a mass order I would be willing to help you ;-)

Greetings

Kalle

Templar Bob/De Tyre · Wed Jan 17, 2001 12:04 pm

Bump.

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Robert Coleman, Jr.

The Noble Companie and Order of St. Maurice

Those who beat their swords into plowshares end up plowing for those who don't.

sarnac · Post by **sarnac** » Wed Jan 17, 2001 1:12 pm

Thaddeus-
emailed you

DanNV · Post by **DanNV** » Wed Jan 17, 2001 7:40 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Second I think all the measurements on the Ready to Wear shirts are done on people with work clothes (T-shirts or equivalent). I'm looking at the ready to wear shirts and thinking about getting the size 60 in order to get the 60 cm armhole. Anything smaller and I think I might be fighting the mail to lift my arm over my head. I fact I think I'm a fairly average size at six foot wearing a size 44 coat and the measurements on most of those ready to wear shirts don't come close. So I'm going big to be sure.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

From what I've seen of some mail locally, you want the armhole tighter than you think. If there is a lot of slack at the arm hole you end up having to try to lift the entire side of the shirt to lift your arm. If the arm hole is pretty close to your armpit, that problem pretty much goes away, so long as the body isn't too big and the arms are set in like a T rather than like a suit coat.

Dan

Thaddeus · Post by **Thaddeus** » Wed Jan 17, 2001 11:04 pm

I sent out emails to people. A couple of individuals have mentioned to me that they are stationed in Germany or nearby and might be able to arrange shiping to the states. If those persons are willing I can put interested parties together with their permission.

sarnac · Post by **sarnac** » Thu Jan 18, 2001 9:57 am

Ok
I am not an illiterate moron but is this spread sheet the most confusing thing you have ever read??
How big is the size 60/62 actually?? In inches please!!!

Garridan · Post by **Garridan** » Thu Jan 18, 2001 10:12 am

cm/2.54=in
So, 60cm = 23 1/2"

Harold, move to Munchen... that's a beautiful city... Second place I'd go after Italy...
--tom

Thaddeus · Post by **Thaddeus** » Thu Jan 18, 2001 12:08 pm

I dont have the spread sheet in front of me but I believe listed one over from the size colum is the circumference in cm around the chest. I am ordering a 52/54 which has an average diameter of I think 115-120 cm, which gives me quite a bit of breathing room at a 44" chest with a reinforced gambeson underneath. There is also towards the end of the columns a maximum circumference, this is the shirt at its maximum spread, ie pulled tight in the horizontal plain. Yes the spread sheet is a bit confusing, but I decided to disseminate it as is rather than put my spin on what I thought Jurgen meant. That way we can all be confused together. I emailed ym order to Mr Ziegler last night and could not get through. His email account is tanked with messages so hopefully later today I can get through.

sarnac · Post by **sarnac** » Thu Jan 18, 2001 12:32 pm

Ok
SO

I have a 55 inch chest and a 40 inch waist
Is there even ANYTHING on that sheet that will fit me??

Arland · Post by **Arland** » Thu Jan 18, 2001 2:11 pm

Just a few things to add to this.

The coifs are put together wrong...that is the maille hangs the wrong way for me. It's a popular German style though (re-enactment that is).

The gauge for the .5mm is 20 or less. A mechanical pencil uses .5mm lead.

I'd like to get in a on group order if we can get one together ASAP. I'd like to have one of these for my birthday, which is right after Estrella. The only real problem is that a VAT relief form only goes up to 5,000DM or about $2,200.

Baron Arland the Bastard

Thaddeus · Post by **Thaddeus** » Thu Jan 18, 2001 4:55 pm

Sarnac 54" is @ 137cm, so you would fit into a size 60/62 which has a maximum circumference of 175cm which is in the neighborhood of 64". Stretched to a 64" circumference the 60/62 has a length of @ 80cm which is 31&1/2" so if you want longer you would have to buy some extension to the bottom of the shirt.

Prince Of Darkmoor · Post by **Prince Of Darkmoor** » Thu Jan 18, 2001 5:05 pm

Sarnac 54" is @ 137cm, so you would fit into a size 60/62 which has a maximum circumference of 175cm which is in the neighborhood of 64".

You telling me that these dudes could make a welded maille hauberk for me that wore like a 5XL Shirt? And HOW much is this again? Could someone please forward the spreadsheet to me: castledarkmoor@hotmail.com. Thanks.

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Professional Jerk
Salinas Swordsman

Templar Bob/De Tyre · Post by **Templar Bob/De Tyre** » Fri Jan 19, 2001 6:53 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Prince Of Darkmoor:
 You telling me that these dudes could make a welded maille hauberk for me that wore like a 5XL Shirt? And HOW much is this again? Could someone please forward the spreadsheet to me: castledarkmoor@hotmail.com. Thanks.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Already done.

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Robert Coleman, Jr.

The Noble Companie and Order of St. Maurice

Those who beat their swords into plowshares end up plowing for those who don't.

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Fri Jan 19, 2001 10:45 am

Excellent. My wife is going to flip when she sees this.

Btw, I've handled restored 15th mail from Visegrad (capital of hungary, seat of power for Emperor Sigismund of Luxembourg), riveted, and the wire was roughly 20-22 gauge.

It can be done.
Now, what your eyesight is like after doing a whole gauntlet or shirt that way...

sarnac · Post by **sarnac** » Fri Jan 19, 2001 10:48 am

Templar Bob- Thanks for the conversion for the overworked and math impaired!!

I think that I would order a shirt for my self.
So has anyone found out what the difference is between the Roman and Norman???