The Tactical Wheel

[Baron Alejandro]

I'm currently working through it with my advanced (modern) fencing students. My favorite one, amusingly enough, is the explanation found on Wikihow's 'How to Understand Fencing As a Spectator, Step One'

http://www.wikihow.com/Understand-Fenci ... -Spectator

There are also lots of tactical wheels. The Greater Wheel, the Lesser Wheel, the <a href="http://www.lindajdunn.com/fencing/TacticalWheel.html">Sarbo Wheel</a>, the Furious Wheel, the Krotchpunt Wheel, etc.

I wonder if the applicability holds in Society's rattan combat. Presuming two sword & shield fighters;

Simple attack = flat snap
is defeated by
Parry & riposte = block & return
is defeated by
Compound attack = a one-two or onside/offside
is defeated by
Attack on preparation or counter attack = block the first one, hit 'im before the second
is defeated by
Counter-time = A pump-fake.
is defeated by
Feint in Tempo = 3 shot combo? Maybe?
is defeated by
A simple attack. = A flat snap.

Whaddya think?

[bkillian]

yup

[Signo]

It seems something that some old fetchbook tried to incorporate, the first that I remember is I.33. It is arranged as a long series of techniques, countertechniques and counter countertechniques.. a bit confusing, but useful.

[Zafir al-Th'ib]

Obviously some of that works out, but I'm not certain about the 'wheel' - after all, a 'pump-fake' is often defeated by a simple attack, because any attack that sacrifices speed and defense for greater accuracy (hitches, pump fakes, feints) is vulnerable to an in-line counterattack or speed shot. I think instead one could merely suggest general principles:

A simple attack will, more often than not, work well against a complex attack.

A simple attack will, more often than not, work poorly against an opponent in a defensive posture.

Etc.

EDITED TO INCLUDE:

I would read a 'feint in tempo' to be an attack that uses a complex feint to open a target, ie, pumping for the primary leg -> fake moulinet to offside -> mounlinet to primary head.

'Attack on feint' is seeing the beginning of a complex movement and firing into it, for example, for the hanging arm.

We have nothing in heavy that is in the same tempo as parry/riposte. Block/counter is in a different time and is down the list.

[ThorvaldR Skegglauss]

We have nothing in heavy that is in the same tempo as parry/riposte. Block/counter is in a different time and is down the list.

I disagree, but it is the same move that is viable in both disciplines.

parry/riposte = sword block/thrust

regards
Thorvaldr

[Baron Alejandro]

My understanding of a pump fake is that it is a body twitch or some other movement designed to elicit the opponent's defensive response. Ring the bell, Mr. Pavlov!

If my understanding is correct, then it seems to me to be the same as counter-time.

Do I perceive a pump fake correctly, or am I mistaken?

Obviously some of that works out, but I'm not certain about the 'wheel' - after all, a 'pump-fake' is often defeated by a simple attack, because any attack that sacrifices speed and defense for greater accuracy (hitches, pump fakes, feints) is vulnerable to an in-line counterattack or speed shot. I think instead one could merely suggest general principles:

A simple attack will, more often than not, work well against a complex attack.

A simple attack will, more often than not, work poorly against an opponent in a defensive posture.

Etc.

EDITED TO INCLUDE:

I would read a 'feint in tempo' to be an attack that uses a complex feint to open a target, ie, pumping for the primary leg -> fake moulinet to offside -> mounlinet to primary head.

'Attack on feint' is seeing the beginning of a complex movement and firing into it, for example, for the hanging arm.

We have nothing in heavy that is in the same tempo as parry/riposte. Block/counter is in a different time and is down the list.

[Sean Powell]

It's hard to simplify the concept into a wheel or a consecutive series of rock/paper/scissors.

Flat snap is beaten by:
sword strike to the attacking arm
sword block and counter strike
shield block WHILE counter striking
fade range then counter strike
shortening range to reduce power and counter striking
letting him hit you (in the leg) and striking a 'kill' shot or even just the tactical advantage of the arm.
letting him hit you, saying 'one', grasping or pinning his weapon on it's return, beating him mercilessly until the maximim number of counted blowes is reached.
...many other possibilities...
block and let your buddy kill him
retreat and shoot him with CA or Siege

Some counter actions have greater or lesser chances of success. (How many times have you missed a block on a flat snap just because your opponent was just that fast.) Almost all of the counters can be countered by the other counters. Flat snap -> arm counter strike -> shield block (your buckler was protecting your attacking arm right?) and counter strike -> fade range and back to arm strike. That means the 'wheel' tends to look more like input -> chaotic recursive looping -> winning.

Please prove me wrong. I could use some hints about how to win.

Sean

[Baron Alejandro]

Sean, keep in mind that although there are indeed a greater number of variables in Society armored combat than modern fencing, the situation I've presented is two sword & shield fighters of roughly similar caliber, fighting in single combat.

I'd also posit that many of the responses you've described fit perfectly under 'parry & riposte'.

More later.

It's hard to simplify the concept into a wheel or a consecutive series of rock/paper/scissors.

Flat snap is beaten by:
sword strike to the attacking arm
sword block and counter strike
shield block WHILE counter striking
fade range then counter strike
shortening range to reduce power and counter striking
letting him hit you (in the leg) and striking a 'kill' shot or even just the tactical advantage of the arm.
letting him hit you, saying 'one', grasping or pinning his weapon on it's return, beating him mercilessly until the maximim number of counted blowes is reached.
...many other possibilities...
block and let your buddy kill him
retreat and shoot him with CA or Siege

Some counter actions have greater or lesser chances of success. (How many times have you missed a block on a flat snap just because your opponent was just that fast.) Almost all of the counters can be countered by the other counters. Flat snap -> arm counter strike -> shield block (your buckler was protecting your attacking arm right?) and counter strike -> fade range and back to arm strike. That means the 'wheel' tends to look more like input -> chaotic recursive looping -> winning.

Please prove me wrong. I could use some hints about how to win.

Sean

[Alex Baird]

Feint in Tempo = 3 shot combo? Maybe?

As I understand it, a feint in tempo is something like "extend along a line, anticipate the parry, disengage the original line to second intention and hit." Am I correct in this?

If so, there are several options in armored combat that include a deceptive motion to draw the block, followed by a retargeting of the trajectory. Maybe your pump-fake fits better here?

[Kilkenny]

My understanding of a pump fake is that it is a body twitch or some other movement designed to elicit the opponent's defensive response. Ring the bell, Mr. Pavlov!

If my understanding is correct, then it seems to me to be the same as counter-time.

Do I perceive a pump fake correctly, or am I mistaken?

I think you're misapplying "pump fake". for me, it is a reference to a very specific action of moving the sword hand - a "pump" to draw a reaction and produce an exploitable situation. The kinds of things you mention are used for the same purpose, but are not "pump fakes" per se.

You can pop the hip, or do a shoulder shrug, or shift your fingers on the hilt, shift your weight, tilt your head, look at something like it's a target... all of these work, depending on opponent, to draw a reaction for you to exploit.

There's an entire universe of small feints, of which the pump fake is but one piece.

[Baron Alejandro]

There's an entire universe of small feints, of which the pump fake is but one piece.

...all of which could be classified as 'counter-time'. You are absolutely correct, sir.

[Kilkenny]

It's hard to simplify the concept into a wheel or a consecutive series of rock/paper/scissors.

Flat snap is beaten by:
sword strike to the attacking arm
sword block and counter strike
shield block WHILE counter striking
fade range then counter strike
shortening range to reduce power and counter striking
letting him hit you (in the leg) and striking a 'kill' shot or even just the tactical advantage of the arm.
letting him hit you, saying 'one', grasping or pinning his weapon on it's return, beating him mercilessly until the maximim number of counted blowes is reached.
...many other possibilities...
block and let your buddy kill him
retreat and shoot him with CA or Siege

Some counter actions have greater or lesser chances of success. (How many times have you missed a block on a flat snap just because your opponent was just that fast.) Almost all of the counters can be countered by the other counters. Flat snap -> arm counter strike -> shield block (your buckler was protecting your attacking arm right?) and counter strike -> fade range and back to arm strike. That means the 'wheel' tends to look more like input -> chaotic recursive looping -> winning.

Please prove me wrong. I could use some hints about how to win.

Sean

Well - it's easy to both oversimplify and over complicate SCA fighting.
Here's a hint I've had very substantial success with: "If it moves - HIT IT!!!"

Seriously. Their leg moves - swing at it. Their sword moves - swing at it. their head moves - swing at it. One important thing this does is to interrupt whatever they were starting to do. It also leads toward what HG Cariadoc calls "single timing" where when your opponent tries to hit you - you hit him, w/o waiting to block first.

I don't know enough about the "tactical wheel" that Alejandro is discussing to really address whether or not there is a reasonable SCA heavy fighting analog.