DON'T BREAK YOUR TOYS

[Cailin]

FWIW: My wife is a doctor. We asked about how she would function in the Chirurgeonate. We were told that anything first aid would be covered by the SCA insurance, etc. Anything beyond that, and she would no longer be acting under the SCA and would be acting under her own medical license and insurance.

[Amanda M]

That's pretty much my understanding of how it works for any medical professional.

[hrolf]

Yup. This is why most sane doctors, nurses, and paramedics all have malpractice insurance.

getting sued as a medical professional is not a matter of if. It's a matter of when.

[Bastior]

A sport that involves beating your friends with a stick is likely to attract a higher than the average percentage of people who will fight through pain rather than seek help, and then take anti inflamatories and/or beer afterwards rather than seek help. It'd shock me if injuries weren't under reported.

B

[Johann Lederer]

FWIW: My wife is a doctor. We asked about how she would function in the Chirurgeonate. We were told that anything first aid would be covered by the SCA insurance, etc. Anything beyond that, and she would no longer be acting under the SCA and would be acting under her own medical license and insurance.

My wife is a CCRN, and a CEN with a limited scope of practice in Radiology. She wanted to volunteer as a Chiregeon, and after investigating it was better that she did not, even with her insurance. As a side note, when I was a practicing EMT-I, I had my own insurance in addition to that at work...

[Kilkenny]

Note that I said "in my experience". I'm sure there are TONS of great Chirurgeons out there.. I've actually met a few! But the majority I have met I wouldn't let trim a toenail, let alone go at my armor with a set of leather shears.

Broad brush much, Maeryk? I've personally seen someone who was down with a hurt knee, in quite a bit of pain who had a chiurgeon rush over and draw up the earth power, channeling it into the knee. Kinda blows your crazy and unqualified argument out of the water.

Sigh...

Do we really need to get into anecdotes ? After all, for every amazing good one, we can find and amazing bad one. And it still won't mean anything.

besides, I don't believe this thread was intended to be about medical attention in any way shape or form.

I think it was intended to discuss the philosophical perspective behind the phrase "don't break your toys".

[Caedmon]

That statement really hit home for me the first time I broke a fighters arm.

The FIRST time you broke somebody's arm? Good God, man, how many arms have you broken?

[Count Johnathan]

2 arms, some ribs, a leg....probably a few fingers. A few knockouts too.

The first arm was a combination of armour failure and shot power in a singles match when I had told a friend of mine who knew me as a child that I had been training very seriously and for his sake he should not underestimate me. I was 18. The second arm was in a battle at estrella. Fighters arm was sticking out past a shield and was at just the wrong angle at that moment. Ribs due to people not wearing enough armour. I always suggest more armor than what the SCA requires. I've taken plenty of shots that would have broken my ribs had I not been wearing a breastplate. The leg was a lower leg. I was fighting a friend of mine warming up for a tourney and he decided to jump into the air to try to wrap me in the head at the same moment I had thrown a leg wrap. His leg was broken clean though he did not know it till a week later when he finally went to the doctor. He went six rounds in crown with that broken leg. Fingers... that just happens. Normally due to shitty gauntlets and poor blocking technique.

None of the injuries were intentional I assure you and none ofthe fighters who were broken blamed me. They knew I was not intending to harm them. It's a rough game. I've had my fair share of substantial hits that would have caused me serious harm if my armour was not up to par. I don't blame the guys who threw those shots at me either though. We know that this game is not for the feint of heart. It's why even though it is not a sport of fatalities we do recognize that when we fight we are putting our bodies to hazard. We accept this before we step out on the field. If we don't we should not be fighting.

[Balin50]

2 arms, some ribs, a leg....probably a few fingers. A few knockouts too.

The first arm was a combination of armour failure and shot power in a singles match when I had told a friend of mine who knew me as a child that I had been training very seriously and for his sake he should not underestimate me. I was 18. The second arm was in a battle at estrella. Fighters arm was sticking out past a shield and was at just the wrong angle at that moment. Ribs due to people not wearing enough armour. I always suggest more armor than what the SCA requires. I've taken plenty of shots that would have broken my ribs had I not been wearing a breastplate. The leg was a lower leg. I was fighting a friend of mine warming up for a tourney and he decided to jump into the air to try to wrap me in the head at the same moment I had thrown a leg wrap. His leg was broken clean though he did not know it till a week later when he finally went to the doctor. He went six rounds in crown with that broken leg. Fingers... that just happens. Normally due to shitty gauntlets and poor blocking technique.

None of the injuries were intentional I assure you and none ofthe fighters who were broken blamed me. They knew I was not intending to harm them. It's a rough game. I've had my fair share of substantial hits that would have caused me serious harm if my armour was not up to par. I don't blame the guys who threw those shots at me either though. We know that this game is not for the feint of heart. It's why even though it is not a sport of fatalities we do recognize that when we fight we are putting our bodies to hazard. We accept this before we step out on the field. If we don't we should not be fighting.

Meany

[Balin50]

Greetings Fellow Archivists

Inspired by Count Jonathan's excellent HIT HARD TAKE LIGHT thread, I would unearth another phrase from the sca's past/present which I found to be very useful, and indeed, pivotal in the sca's success.

Feel free to share your thoughts - either in support or why you think it leads us astray. Fair warning - I'm pretty passionate about the idea we're out there to have fun in a very strenuous and often hard hitting fashion but that very few are injured and never deliberately. I'm interested in exploring the specifics, which may be different from kingdom to kingdom, as to how this wonderous result is achieved.

Regards

Avery

When we tend to hear this repeated to us is on a Melee field after a few injuries have happened. A nice way to slap everyone in the face and say "CALM DOWN IT'S A GAME YOU WANKERS!" in a nice way.

Balin

[Count Johnathan]

2 arms, some ribs, a leg....probably a few fingers. A few knockouts too.

The first arm was a combination of armour failure and shot power in a singles match when I had told a friend of mine who knew me as a child that I had been training very seriously and for his sake he should not underestimate me. I was 18. The second arm was in a battle at estrella. Fighters arm was sticking out past a shield and was at just the wrong angle at that moment. Ribs due to people not wearing enough armour. I always suggest more armor than what the SCA requires. I've taken plenty of shots that would have broken my ribs had I not been wearing a breastplate. The leg was a lower leg. I was fighting a friend of mine warming up for a tourney and he decided to jump into the air to try to wrap me in the head at the same moment I had thrown a leg wrap. His leg was broken clean though he did not know it till a week later when he finally went to the doctor. He went six rounds in crown with that broken leg. Fingers... that just happens. Normally due to shitty gauntlets and poor blocking technique.

None of the injuries were intentional I assure you and none ofthe fighters who were broken blamed me. They knew I was not intending to harm them. It's a rough game. I've had my fair share of substantial hits that would have caused me serious harm if my armour was not up to par. I don't blame the guys who threw those shots at me either though. We know that this game is not for the feint of heart. It's why even though it is not a sport of fatalities we do recognize that when we fight we are putting our bodies to hazard. We accept this before we step out on the field. If we don't we should not be fighting.

Meany

It's relative. That's over 20 years of fighting in many hundreds of melees and wars and many many thousands of singles combats. The last time I seriously injured a fellow was crown list 11 years ago. It was ribs and he was wearing no body armor.

I never intend on breaking my fellow fighters. I get annoyed when I hurt someone and then I find out they were wearing less than adequate protective gear. I feel it is a great disservice to your fellow fighters not to protect yourself with substantial armor. Folks who wear minimums are crazy IMO.

[Godric of Castlemont]

So back to the original subject, we seem to have two sayings here:

1) Don't break your toys

and

2) Don't go to a Chirurgeon

Any one want to add #3?

[Maeryk]

Gotta say though, if someone has been fighting in mins for years, and never got injured, and suddenly gets a broken arm.. I don't think the fault lies with the armor.

[Ingvarr]

My three:

1) Have fun.
2) Don't break your toys.
3) Don't be a dick.

[Sigifrith Hauknefr]

Gotta say though, if someone has been fighting in mins for years, and never got injured, and suddenly gets a broken arm.. I don't think the fault lies with the armor.

Maybe he never fought anyone good enough to hit him hard in the forearm? The problem (at least out here) with fighting in minimums is that it's fine if you greatly outskill your opponents. Hell, they don't hit you ANYWHERE very often anyway. Then you meet you betters and all of a sudden you are getting hit harder and way more often and what do you know... injury rate increases.

Probably, though the fault doesn't lie anywhere. Flukes happen. Armor slips, wears out. Limbs get put in awkward places.

I had a finger tip broken in practice INSIDE A PLASTIC CUP HILT. Big guy with short little sword flipped a little offside to my head as I was throwing a snap. "Somehow" the top of his sword threaded miraculously in the gap and hit my finger. I don't think it could happen one time in 100,000 engagements, but there it happened once.

[Giraut]

...
Any one want to add #3?

"If you injured someone, don't be proud of it. Shame on you."

[Kilkenny]

That statement really hit home for me the first time I broke a fighters arm.

The FIRST time you broke somebody's arm? Good God, man, how many arms have you broken?

heh. Interesting reaction. I could also refer to the first time I broke someone's arm.

[DukeAvery]

I would say rule 3 would be - "Armor up".

I still believe, with all due respect to his grace (and thanks for helping us get back on topic), that I fighter does not have the right to strike another fighter arbitrarily hard. Advanced and/or strong fighters must be careful of newer and/or small fighters. This is best said as "don't break your toys" or "let no one strike in anger, let no one fall in pain."

Proper armor is very important - and I agree in cases where substandard armor is involved the fault lies with the armor. Most people do not wear as much armor as I recommend, especially smaller fighters. Often, folks worry too much appearing bulky so they skimp on the padding. So sad. I do not accept, however, this as an excuse on the part of advanced fighters where new fighters are concerned. New fighters are almost guaranteed to have some substandard gear, often a helm that doesn't fit quite right. You don't have to use a bone rattling crown winning 9 against some little new guy and then tell them it is their problem.

I do not believe we have a big problem with this - but it is important that we, as a group, remain watchful for those who would use the tactics of delivered pain to bully and intimidate. The bloom is off the rose kids, so pay attention and stay safe. Don't go along to get along.

What would you think of a big, strong fighter, that as long as he wins he throws 5s and praises you, but if you manage to 'kill' him he starts throwing scowls and 10s? What is that man teaching? Is that knightly?

Regards

Avery

[Kilkenny]

I would say rule 3 would be - "Armor up".

I still believe, with all due respect to his grace (and thanks for helping us get back on topic), that I fighter does not have the right to strike another fighter arbitrarily hard. Advanced and/or strong fighters must be careful of newer and/or small fighters. This is best said as "don't break your toys" or "let no one strike in anger, let no one fall in pain."

Avery

Our "disagreement" here is entirely a semantic one. You are using the phrase "arbitrarily hard" inappropriately. I completely agree that we - none of us - have any "right" to strike an opponent with any intent to do actual physical injury. Consider "actual physical injury" in this context to be above and beyond the bruising that most of us understand is simply part of the game.

The problem is "arbitrarily hard" just doesn't convey that meaning.

I would suggest you consider replacing "arbitrarily" with "unreasonably", and then people can debate what constitutes "unreasonably hard" in the same manner as they debate "excessive"

[Maeryk]

We've been told again and again, excessive is impossible.

[Godric of Castlemont]

We've been told again and again, excessive is impossible.

I would disagree, excessive would to me be any strike beyond what is called for in the rules of the game. And this is a game, not combat, not a martial art, throwing too much behind a shot is no different than tackling someone during a game of tag.

[justus]

I never report injuries, and I've had many. First, I take responsibility for myself, and all that I ask from my fellow scadians is that they drag me off the field if need be and drop me in a shady spot if convenient. I bring my own water, and I bring my own first aid gear.

Second, what possible good can come of me reporting an injury to the Marshallate and the Chirurgeonate? More paperwork for someone, and BS paperwork at that.

As for the notion of not breaking your friends, absolutely. We all need to be very aware of the safety of our opponents, and in many ways their safety is in our hands.

But I feel it's up to each fighter to make sure they are armored well enough to prevent serious injury. The marshals can't really help you here, nor can you opponent. If you get your forearm broken (as I have) because you weren't wearing vambraces, or inadequate vambraces, it's no ones fault but yours. I know from painful experience that it does not take an excessive shot, or even a very hard shot to the forearm to cause a fracture.

BTW I don't think we need to add vambraces to our already over protective armor standards, we just need to enforce the notion that your going to get hurt out there if you don't armor yourself properly.

-Justus

[Count Johnathan]

What would you think of a big, strong fighter, that as long as he wins he throws 5s and praises you, but if you manage to 'kill' him he starts throwing scowls and 10s? What is that man teaching? Is that knightly?

Regards

Avery

I find that very sad. He is teaching his opponents that he is weak in the ego dept. That he requires victory above all else and cares little for what a new fighter might learn or how it would affect them. It is unknightly at best.

When I train newer fighters I do not ever give them the impression that this is a weaklings game. That doesn't mean that I start out by nuking them into oblivian but I do strike with consistant 8s and above when I am on my game. I encourage new fighters to hit with authority and to expect the same in return. I praise fighters for their successes and encourage them to work harder to learn from their failures. To teach otherwise is a great disservice. I would hate to have anyone I trained feel comfortable with the idea that some Uberduke is going to take it easy on them only to find that Uberduke doesn't know them and is going to put the fear into them by hitting harder than they are used to being struck. That can be shocking and unpleasant. It would be a failure to feed a new fighter false information about the realities of our sport. Consistancy is neccesary to promote a strong foundation. A new fighter should learn quickly what to expect from the hardest hitters out there and should make sure their armor is adequate to face off against them without fear of serious injury.

Doing otherwise is a good way to train a fighter to fear the upper echelon fighters.

I do not train fighters to fear Dukes. I train fighters to hunt them and to become them.

[DukeAvery]

Good post brother Johnathan.

Regards

Avery

[Francisco Lopez de Leon]

My third would be, in the words of my knight, "You can't win practice." I used to be partuicularly bad at this... I would go to practice with the intent of "winning" my fights.... which is great, except that instead ot working on a technicque or polishing a transition, I was just brawling....

[Tibbie Croser]

Syr Justus, I understand why you don't want to create paperwork.

But I can imagine cases in which the marshals would *want* you to report injuries. They can't fix problems if they don't know about them. It's one thing if injury results from just bad luck or legal but inadequate armor. However, if it comes from a problem weapon, a problem fighter (say, someone at Pennsic who usually plays another game and fights SCA once a year), or a terrain problem on a melee field, it would be better to report the injury to the marshallate at least, if not the chirurgeons.

Documentation is also one way to fight rumor. Person X gets hurt, doesn't report it, person Y sees the injury, jumps to conclusions and broadcasts them, someone complains to the marshals, the marshals have no record of the incident to refute anyone's wild theories or protect anyone's honor...

I'm a fellow Atlantian, but I do rapier only. I believe the Kingdom Rapier Marshals and their deputies have emphasized that they *want* to know about equipment failures, for example, and other problems. I don't know whether armored-combat marshals feel the same way.

[justus]

Those are good points Flittie, and you are right in some of those situations I would be wrong not to report it. If I was injured by an unsafe weapon or the like it would be very important that I take that weapon and fighter attached to a Marshall to remedy the situation.

But let's take the third time I fractured my forearm (slow learner) it was late in the day at an event, pickups, and a friend threw a 4-5 at my right forearm. I was wearing an old-once-adequate but now pretty much decorative vambrace and I heard and felt my arm crack.

I "should" have reported the injury but to what end? My opponent was not throwing excessive shots, the injury happened to a part of the body not covered by regulation armor so it's not like the inspecting Marshall was to blame for letting me on the field, the fault i(f any for what was really just bad luck) is my own. I should have replaced that armor a year before it failed. I just can't see any purpose in filing a report for something of that nature.

But as you pointed out there ARE times when it is very important to make a problem known to the marshals.

-Justus

[Nissan Maxima]

The SCA is not trained or prepared to deal with injury information. What risk analysis process will they use to differentiate an incident from a trend? How will they determine probability to address a hazard.

They won't. They will make a new rule to stop a once in a million incident from reccuring and all will be punished.

[DukeAvery]

Because one lady almost got hit with a thrown sword (or so I heard), I always and with pride wear a lanyard (or the equivalent) at tournament. Because somebody's mother might be watching.

I'd ban perpendicular (shovel grips) at the society level if I could (because I know how hard they can hit and if you have one, I want one to and we'll see how much fun that is). I drank the two elbow kool-aid long ago, but I see where you are coming from - it is your elbow.

Shrugs. Logan for SEM.

Regards

Avery

[Maelduin mac D]

Note that I said "in my experience". I'm sure there are TONS of great Chirurgeons out there.. I've actually met a few! But the majority I have met I wouldn't let trim a toenail, let alone go at my armor with a set of leather shears.

Broad brush much, Maeryk? I've personally seen someone who was down with a hurt knee, in quite a bit of pain who had a chiurgeon rush over and draw up the earth power, channeling it into the knee. Kinda blows your crazy and unqualified argument out of the water.

::snicker:: You mean warm their hands using friction and place said very warm hands directly on the skin to relieve pain and swelling?

[Alex Baird]

But I feel it's up to each fighter to make sure they are armored well enough to prevent serious injury. The marshals can't really help you here, nor can you opponent. If you get your forearm broken (as I have) because you weren't wearing vambraces, or inadequate vambraces, it's no ones fault but yours. I know from painful experience that it does not take an excessive shot, or even a very hard shot to the forearm to cause a fracture.

BTW I don't think we need to add vambraces to our already over protective armor standards, we just need to enforce the notion that your going to get hurt out there if you don't armor yourself properly.

Sir:

Isn't there an inconsistency here? If vams are part of what is "armored well enough to prevent serious injury", but are not required, then how is it that someone not using them is "already over protected"? Isn't the purpose of Society minimum armor to be armored well enough to prevent serious injury? (although I think "prevent" is an impossible standard.)

ps: In Caid, forearm protection is required by Kingdom rules.

[justus]

But I feel it's up to each fighter to make sure they are armored well enough to prevent serious injury. The marshals can't really help you here, nor can you opponent. If you get your forearm broken (as I have) because you weren't wearing vambraces, or inadequate vambraces, it's no ones fault but yours. I know from painful experience that it does not take an excessive shot, or even a very hard shot to the forearm to cause a fracture.

BTW I don't think we need to add vambraces to our already over protective armor standards, we just need to enforce the notion that your going to get hurt out there if you don't armor yourself properly.

Sir:

Isn't there an inconsistency here? If vams are part of what is "armored well enough to prevent serious injury", but are not required, then how is it that someone not using them is "already over protected"? Isn't the purpose of Society minimum armor to be armored well enough to prevent serious injury? (although I think "prevent" is an impossible standard.)

ps: In Caid, forearm protection is required by Kingdom rules.

Overprotected is us all wearing "kidney belts" (I wonder if people have any idea where their kidneys really are) and elbowcops behind heater shields among other things.

Personally I don't fight without vambraces, because I've had multiple injuries to my forearms, but I don't want to see yet another required piece of armor.

To me it's like seatbelts and helmet laws. I wear them, but it's not my business if you don't, just don't come crying to me if you get broke.

I get the idea behind our armor standards, but think of it this way, if the tomorrow the SCA said: "Ok, no more armor standard, just suit up in what you think you need."

What would change? Not very much. For the most part our standard reflects what decades of armored combat have shown us we really need. Personally my kit would remain unchanged save for my kidney belt and the silly gorget pad I have to pass inspection. Everything else I wear is there not because the SCA says I need to have it, but because 15 years have proven to me that it needs to be there. It just happens that my combat reality and the SCA armor standard mostly overlap.

I would turn all our "rules" into "suggestions" like:

"We suggest you wear hand protection, but if you want to fight barehanded that's fine. We suggest packing several splints for your broken fingers."

But that is me.

-Justus

[DukeAvery]

I dunno; One day Paul hit a guy in the kidney (area) and he pissed blood. Could be the strike had nothing to do with it, but I'm going with Paul's kidney armor rule - don't break your toys.

Have fun out there.

Regards

Avery

[jester]

Breaking your opponents is a sign of lack of skill. Now as then.

[Nissan Maxima]

I got hit yesterday with a shot in the forearm thatwould certainly have broken it had I not had a vambrace. My opponent's skill allowed him to strike me there. My responsibility to my self and to him to be safelyuarmoured ensured that all was smiles and laughter. If I did not have a vambrace it would not be his fault that I had a broken arm.

But it would still have sucked.