Is SCA "Combat" a martial art (however impractical

[DukeAvery]

I was just at a practice yesterday run by Paul Bellatrix and it sure felt like a martial art to me. I'm lightly sore high up in the shoulders and outer thighs but no big bruises. Lots of minor ones. Horse stance which I am unusual in using extensively around here is becoming easy. This Sir Marc fellow schooled us with his great sword (yes even me). Mixed weapons is not my biggest thrill. I am minded to increase my anaerobic conditioning for running down attackers who have range. I teach "lefty dukes 101" and learned new methods of attacking a great sword s/b and learned basic great sword katas. I wonder what length will throw his grace off his game? A range game or go inside? I think I'll train with two sizes.

Word spreads I expect to be challenged. Out of practice, my power generation is all over the map and I am establishing my credentials after a 17 year hiatus. 5s to 8s. If Paul wishes me to back off, he will tell me.

http://www.bellatrix.org/school/appendi ... rcises.htm . I spent an hour or more doing this one today. Hopefully, I'll dream about it. Let's get this party started.

Discuss.

Regards

Avery

[MarkH]

Hi Avery,
Our fights were my favorite set of the night!
I have a bruise from that arm/leg trade we had.

I do the hanging guard flow kata a bit different from Paul, in that I like to step under the sword, instead of stepping and then pulling it up. Either way, that is one of THE best drills for gaining fluidity with a two hander.

I think of SCA combat as a Combat Sport, similar to boxing or MMA.
We have a lot of protective gear, and many outlawed techniques due to safety or the aesthetic of our sport, but we get to go full speed and full power, which can be hard to do with some of the nastier techniques.

[Aaron]

I would call SCA combat a martial sport, like judo or combatives.

At Pennsic I saw Duke Paul teach a class of ~50, unarmoured with just sticks in their hands. All were in time together moving as one. It was beautiful to watch. That is the only example I have of our sport evolving into an art. That was art, like Ti-Chi or martial dances I saw in Thialand.

[Edwin]

Like nearly every other "martial art" practiced, SCA fighting has a strong element of "sport" in it. I alwasy like to think of it this way: the more rules, and the more conventions that are implemented for the sake of safety, the more of a sport it is. It's not an either-or type of thing... there are elements of both and the ratio changes.

I also think it doesn't matter all that much. I'm trying to hit my opponent with a stick, something my ancestors did for millenia. I do it for fun, they did it for survival (food, defense).

[bkillian]

Our thing is what we each make it. To some it is a sport. They play a game and hit their friends with sticks. At the end of the day they go home and it was nothing more than playing pickup football games at the park when we were young. This is good. To some it is art. It transcends the game and becomes something much more, a physical expression of a deeper philosophical structure that is a strange combination of chivalric fantasy and a desire to be better people, not just better at doing a "thing".This is also good. To the vast majority it is something in between the two. That they all can play on the same field at the same time is pure magic.

[James B.]

I think of it as a sport like TDK tournaments or Olympic fencing. The connection to actual sword fighting is long removed. SCA fighting has it tricks and movements that are totally useless with a real sword because we don't use a real sword.

[Kilkenny]

I think of it as a sport like TDK tournaments or Olympic fencing. The connection to actual sword fighting is long removed. SCA fighting has it tricks and movements that are totally useless with a real sword because we don't use a real sword.

There's the fallacy though, James

SCA fighting as a martial art itself is the question. Not is SCA fighting an adequate recreation of a sword form martial art

Those "totally useless movements" will bust up a mugger just fine - even if they won't work with a sword.

For me, SCA fighting is a martial art.

[James B.]

You can kick a guy in the head like TDK tournament fighting or run a guy through with a rapier using sport fencing styles or even tackle a guy hard like a football player that does not them examples of a martial art.

The real question is would anyone outside the SCA see this as a martial art; I doubt it.

Would anyone say we are really training for combat or are we training for our sport; this is the real sticking point. Sure you could club a guy using SCA style but does that mean we are training some actual combat system. We train for a sport with sport rules just like Olympic fencers, no one calls them martial artists and they are even less removed from Western Martial Arts than we are.

[Maelgwyn]

...The real question is would anyone outside the SCA see this as a martial art; I doubt it.

I disagree completely. I have very little concern over how someone outside the SCA sees it. If it truly is a martial art then others can be brought to see it that way with education, over time. If not, then not.

I believe Sir Brian nailed it. The distinction between a martial art and a combat sport, by my definition, exists in the mind of each practitioner. And the SCA has at least some fighters who are fairly strongly in one camp or the other, and a lot of fighters who are somewhere in between.

[Skutai]

A combat sport is a kind of martial art in that it prepares the practitioner for combat. That's not all it does, but I have no doubt that if I encountered my evil untrained, non-SCA clone with any kind of hand weapon I would destroy him. We can argue about origins, intent, effectiveness, and results, but SCA combat is clearly a martial art, in the category of martial/combat sport.

James B. said: "The real question is would anyone outside the SCA see this as a martial art; I doubt it."

Is that the real question? Public perception is probably the least important distinction we can make. They aren't the ones invested in the art, spending hours and days on its progress.

Frankly, I've seen this discussion a hundred times and invariably anyone who believes the martial art in question is not a "true" martial art simply does so because they have a more narrow definition, born from the snobbery of their chosen martial art.

Who cares, one way or another?

[Francisco Lopez de Leon]

My definition of a martial art is a set of techniques and a form of conditioning that, used with intent in a real fight, would grant me an advantage.

While the SCA is not a COMPLETE martial art in that it does not incorporate unarmed combat (at least.. not at official events...), I am confident that I can pick up just about any stick-like object, of any length, and use it competently to dismantle somebody if the need arose.

I can use a collapsible baton with my SCA skills, or a broom-handle, or a hard tube of wrapping paper, and be certaint hat I will have an advantage that I would otherwise not have. This is due in large part to the fact that our "weapon" of choce is the most readily available thing int eh world: a stick.

This is an advantage not shared by sport fencers, whose weapons are distanced by form from both the weapons they are meant to simulate and anything they can likely improvse in the field. While SOME of what a sport-fencer does could transfer to a found object, ALL of what I can do transfers to any of a hundred found objects, from pool-cues, hockey-sticks, sections of pipe and tree limbs.

So while I see the SCA RULE-SET (ie. no striking hands, no lower-leg shots) as a "sport", I COULD, should I so choose, smash a guy in the fingers that are holding a knife, or blast a dude's knee out from under him.

I guess the answer for me is: rattan combat is a martial art. Tourney fighting is a sport.

[InsaneIrish]

Yes, SCA combat is a Martial Art. One that is still in its infantcy. When compared to martial arts that have been around for hundreds of years and have been refined and improved for that length, SCA combat looks cumbersome and impractical. But, when you look at where SCA combat started, you can see our system has improved leaps and bounds.

Just like tournament judo, tea kwondo, karate, wrestling, et al. SCA combat has roots in real, practical, defense while being put to active practice in a safer setting with rules.

[James B.]

Who cares, one way or another?

True that, call it martian sky diving for all it matters.

[liguangming]

I don't see SCA as a martial arts in any sense of the word.

There is no battlefield application, no codified traditions, no system, no ranking.

As a sport there is no league, divisions, agreed playing fields, judges/refs or 100% agreed to rules. It's all very up to interpretation.

At best its a game of cowboys and indians much like we played as children. We run around playing warriors, and when we fight we hope each other falls down.

[Maeryk]

Like nearly every other "martial art" practiced, SCA fighting has a strong element of "sport" in it. I alwasy like to think of it this way: the more rules, and the more conventions that are implemented for the sake of safety, the more of a sport it is. It's not an either-or type of thing... there are elements of both and the ratio changes.

I also think it doesn't matter all that much. I'm trying to hit my opponent with a stick, something my ancestors did for millenia. I do it for fun, they did it for survival (food, defense).

Yes, but as with the case in _most_ martial arts, the exposition side of the training always has rules. Karate guys (or Kenpo guys) can (least, the ones I know) SERIOUSLY mess you up if they have to.. but for exposition/rank fighting, they don't.

If you had a real stick (or sword) in your hand in a real situation, you could seriously mess someone up.. but you don't break your classmates or honorable competitors.

So I think "martial art" is applicable, with "Exposition fighting" or even "training" applying to most of what we do.

[InsaneIrish]

I don't see SCA as a martial arts in any sense of the word.

There is no battlefield application, no codified traditions, no system, no ranking.

As a sport there is no league, divisions, agreed playing fields, judges/refs or 100% agreed to rules. It's all very up to interpretation.

At best its a game of cowboys and indians much like we played as children. We run around playing warriors, and when we fight we hope each other falls down.

You're kidding right? You just forgot to put the smiley in?

[liguangming]

Insane Irish I'm not kidding at all.

The techniques vary for region to region and are not something we would have seen on the battlefield of the ancients.

Each area/kingdom/principality/barony/ are different so overall there is a complete lack of codified tradition.

No system that progresses from this movement to the next to complete a technique.

No ranking outside of one mans word and "peers". No ranking to dictate, on this level you learn this and so on.

It's played for our own fun and enjoyment much like cowboys and indians was when we were children.

[Skutai]

Insane Irish I'm not kidding at all.

I don't even know where to start, so I won't.

Pax vobiscum.

[Palymar]

Insane Irish I'm not kidding at all.

I don't even know where to start, so I won't.

Pax vobiscum.

I pretty much came to the same conclusion.

[Ewan]

Quoting Sir Vitus:



ohboy





Seriously though. Sir Brian absolutely nailed it in my opinion.

[Nissan Maxima]

I have always explained it as a martial farce.

[Maeryk]

OH hell.. I'm game.

Insane Irish I'm not kidding at all.

The techniques vary for region to region and are not something we would have seen on the battlefield of the ancients..

And what martial art has come forward unchanged from it's original days?
These things adapt and change, as each new teacher comes in, and puts their own skill/twist into wha'ts going on. It's why there are as many "flavors" of Kenpo as there are Sensei's of Kenpo.

Each area/kingdom/principality/barony/ are different so overall there is a complete lack of codified tradition.

Not really. There's the very basic ruleset from which we all work. See, again, the Kenpo comparison. As you get certain very strong teachers in an area, their style will be taught to locals. Consider it a Dojo if you will.

No system that progresses from this movement to the next to complete a technique.

Erm.. sure there is. You start (typically, at least in my experience) with sword and board to get the fundamentals down, then move into other disciplines as you gain experience.

No ranking outside of one mans word and "peers". No ranking to dictate, on this level you learn this and so on.

Umm.. how, exactly, does that differ from Martial Arts? We have two schools locally. One turns out guys who are mid-level fighters who can consistantly mop the floors with the second and third dan Black Belts from another school. The second school guarantees a black belt in a certain time frame, for a certain amount of money. But they are still competing in sanctioned competitions, and still ranked in their discipline, even if everyone in the area knows full well that the vast majority of them shouldn't be even close to the level they are at.

It's played for our own fun and enjoyment much like cowboys and indians was when we were children.

So Martial Arts aren't done for fun and enjoyment by those who take them?

Il confuso...

[liguangming]

I complete understand and agree with Sir Brian's statement. My belief comes from my time spent doing both SCA and martial arts.

[InsaneIrish]

Insane Irish I'm not kidding at all.

The techniques vary for region to region and are not something we would have seen on the battlefield of the ancients.

Never studied much Chinese martial arts have you? At one point, every semi large family had their own "style" of the same art. (that is somewhat of an over simplification, but look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ch ... rtial_arts )

Each area/kingdom/principality/barony/ are different so overall there is a complete lack of codified tradition.

Not true, we all have a base set of rules and a base system in which we all build off of. Just like Northern vs. Southern Chinese Kung Fu, the base is the same, while the individual technique may be different.

No ranking outside of one mans word and "peers". No ranking to dictate, on this level you learn this and so on.

What about AoA, GoA, and PoA awards for fighting?

medieval mindset? Squire, Man at Arms, Knight.

If you go far east, you had no codified ranking system. You had "masters" of each style, and then everybody else. Kind of like the SCA, you have Knights/Masters (PoA) and then everybody else. Complete with kingdom only internal ranking systems that no one else uses.

It's played for our own fun and enjoyment much like cowboys and indians was when we were children.

No different than tournament martial arts.

[Francisco Lopez de Leon]

liguangming:

no battlefield application? I use a baton at work and guess what: I employ my SCA techniques to do it. I have also been in brawls that included various bludgeoning weapons and guess what? I used SCA techniques to gain an advantage.

As for ranking and such, I have seen far more inconsistsent ranking in Northern Shaolin Kung Fu, Okinawa Go Ju Ryu and American Freestyle Karate (in terms of actual fighting ability) than I ever have in the SCA. I KNOW an SCA whitebelt will kick my ass in a fight with sticks. The same is not always true of blackbelts in the other arts I have mentioned.

Regional differences? You betcha- just like the various regional differences in Gung Fu and karate exist.

[Saritor]

The techniques vary for region to region and are not something we would have seen on the battlefield of the ancients.

I disagree with this, Li. Catch me at an event some time, and I'll talk about Meyer's dussack, and the movements we have in the SCA that parallel Meyer's fechtbuch.

It's not 100%, by any means, but a lot of the techniques in use existed in period, and were used.

Kieran

[Syrfinn]

A long time ago, I actually had this question with my tkd master. He knew a bunch of us did this, and was curious about it. We brought him out to a couple of practices, and showed him how we trained for it and worked at it.

Granted, coming from the Phillipines, he thought it was very interesting, and we asked him if he thought it was a martial art. He said he did, simply for the fact, of how we trained to do what we do, at tourneys and such.

If all we did was go around and pick up a stick and hit each other every other weekend, then no it wouldnt be. Its just a hobby.

But for most of us, at least those of us who care about being good at this. We spend several hours a week working on technique, honing our skills, both mentally and physically, studying our technique and style, as well as others to figure out weakness in their defense and offense. And this is all outside of practice. Heck I probably practice 3 to 4 hours a week. I spend more than 10 hours a week, working on the rest of my game. Thats when i am being serious about this. Which currently I am.

And well since I have also used some of the things in a real world setting, ie a fight or two, I would say, its a martial art in that form.

But its also a sport, just as is al of the martial art competitions, those are the sports aspect of what they do.

[Takeyama]

I don't see SCA as a martial arts in any sense of the word.

There is no battlefield application, no codified traditions, no system, no ranking.

As a sport there is no league, divisions, agreed playing fields, judges/refs or 100% agreed to rules. It's all very up to interpretation.

At best its a game of cowboys and indians much like we played as children. We run around playing warriors, and when we fight we hope each other falls down.

There is no battlefield application, no codified traditions, no system, no ranking.

I take a stick to someone's head with a flat snap, that seems like a good battlefield application, alot more so than some of the stuff I see in modern american Tae Kwon Do.

Our playing feilds are agreed to by all who enter them. Even if they are not all the same. We have awards of arms, Renown, the chivalry and even the crown all as rewards for excellent fighting. There are many traditions that exist here, look at the code of chivalry, look at knee fighting.

As a sport there is no league, divisions, agreed playing fields, judges/refs or 100% agreed to rules. It's all very up to interpretation.

We have the society has a whole, kingdoms, baronies and households all vying for renown, our agreed playing fields may not be stadiums but everyone on the field agrees that it is the field. Marshals are the judges and refs. Read the Marshal handbook if you want to see the 100% agreed upon rules. There are disputes in any competitive martial art. out list is just shorter than most.

At best its a game of cowboys and indians much like we played as children. We run around playing warriors, and when we fight we hope each other falls down.

There used to be a marshal judge calling out shots, It wasn't until two dukes ignored the judge and fought until one admitted defeat that our modern system of honor was born.

I feel that we are a martial art, just as much as kendo can be called a marshal art. Today's kendo would not last against warriors of old, just as our fighting would not. *Most* "Marshal Arts" that we see today are far removed from their ancestors, because people were killed, manuscripts destroyed or whatever. There is no "pure" or "true" marshal art, it all has been adjusted by each generation, removing what it didn't like and adding what it liked. We havent seen that level yet because we are a new art form, but even in the relatively short time alot has changed, look at old photos, listen to the old timers stories, you can see the change is there.

[brewer]

Most of the rest of the post from which the following quote is taken has been admirably dealt with by others. This, however:

No ranking outside of one mans word and "peers". No ranking to dictate, on this level you learn this and so on.

is a definite point. There really is no "level" system in SCA fighting.

The rankings themselves are arbitrary, in that you don't gain a new level until the Crown - or the Crown as advised by a polling order - says so.

When you do gain a new level, it doesn't officially open any new areas of study. It's not as though certain techniques or weapons forms are withheld until you reach "the next level". E.g., when you get your AoA-bearing fighting award you don't suddenly get to practice greatsword. In the SCA you can pick up new weapons forms whenever you want, entirely unaffected by what awards/levels you've been granted.

True, the higher-echelon holders of fighting awards - GoA-bearing orders and Knights - tend to have more experience at a wider variety of weapons forms. But that knowledge does not walk hand-in-hand with a system related to "level". In fact, weapons knowledge doesn't necessarily have anything at all to do with rank; I've known SCA fighters authorized in all weapons forms who didn't even have an AoA.

Of course, I don't know if other martial arts have level restrictions on what students may learn. You could fill a book with what I don't know about "Hiiiiii-YA!", MMA or any other martial arts. But it appears to me by the above quote that this is true, and the SCA doesn't have that.

Regards,

Bob

[Francisco Lopez de Leon]

Actually, the regionalism thing is a fun one to explore: after all, medieval people were not terribly well-traveled. Even going on Crusade meant dedicating a year or two just to travel time in some cases. We tend to fixate on great battles and tourneys, for which people would have traveled great distances, but the reality is that most of a warrior's life was spent within riding distance of home...

I'm sure that regional styles and weapons would have developed (the Dussack which as been mentioned, the Messer, the Estoc, etc.)- look at renaissance masters- German, Italian, English, Spanish and French.. they were all different.

Even nowadays, with greatly reduced travel times and the availability of video tutorials, we have all sorts of different styles- An-Tirian, Eastern, Western- Bellatrix school, Count Morgan, Brannos, House Asgard...
Imagine ina time when you were separated from your peers by MONTHS of travel time? You develop your own style.

[Milan H]

Why do I see this devolving into why a Ninja/samurai can kill a knight?


The idea of eastern martial arts is what people use to define martial arts in their minds. Its just the way it is.

That said, I disagree with their definitions, but I still don't see SCA fighting as a martial art, rather a martial sport. The only reason I make this distinction is that I have never seen anyone teach this with a real world, unarmored self defense component to it. If that happened, I would have to reconsider my definition. Every other martial art I have studied, or even looked into, has offered at some level a "street level" component that taught nastiness and survival. That doesn't exist as far as I know with the SCA tradition.

Western Martial Arts are definitely martial arts in my mind, but many people who come from eastern traditions would disagree.... Oh well.


Cheers,

[Steve S.]

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind whatsoever that SCA combat is a martial art.

None. At all.

I took Hapkido for 2 years while at Georgia Tech. I got within a 2 or 3 belts from black before I failed out.

So I have some experience of what martial arts are.

When I joined the SCA and started SCA combat, I thought that it wasn't a real martial art, that it was just D&D with sticks and a good old boy's club.

It took no time at all to realize that SCA combat is every bit of a martial art as any other combat art.

My just about any metric I can think of, it qualifies as a martial art.

Hapkido is an ancient form of combat that consists of a collection of specific body maneuvers designed to control an opponent in a fight. There are no forms, no katas. When controlling one's opponent in a fight one can hurt them or not, as desired.

SCA combat absolutely is a martial art.

Steve

[James B.]

Frankly the whole thing is pointless; you can call it what ever you like no one really cares.

While we are at it we can call the following sports martial arts along the same reasoning:

Fencing
Jousting
Wrestling
Strong man compilations
Target shooting
Archery

The lists goes on and no one cares.

[liguangming]

Irish,
"Never studied much Chinese martial arts have you?"
Northern, southern, both contemporary and classic.

"At one point, every semi large family had their own "style" of the same art. (that is somewhat of an over simplification, but look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ch ... rtial_arts ) "

Correct, and those styles became codified under those specific names. When reviewing taijiquan for example the Sun and Chen schools of thought are extremely different. We are looking at "codified" techniques that applied for region and style.

With SCA we may see similarities in techniques, such as the flat snap with such techniques seen in silat, however silat grew from the field vs SCA growing from our play.

Paul Bellatrix and I had some in depth conversations regarding this a few years back. We reviewed his technique for the flat snap developed from judo while mine was developed from wing chun.

As far as northern and southern chinese art having the "same base" this to me is incorrect based on my studies and teachings. The regions sprung up vastly different and while information was exchanged in later times we do see in the chinese martial arts history southerns and northerners rejecting free sparring between practitioners and schools based on these differences. Low vs high, feet vs fist.

While ranking is touchy subject i can concede if awards and peers are viewed as a "belt/rank system" then the SCA does have rank, however it is not systematic as most American martial arts have become. In the classic sense of the word for martial arts world over rank had little to do with anything. It was application and understanding that was recognized.

I can tell you from my personal experience martial arts tournaments were not as loose and fun as the play we do for SCA.

[InsaneIrish]

liguangming

I am not disagreeing with what you have said. Because, well I really can't.

But, one thing I think you need to incorporate into your thought is time. You are judging the current SCA combat system against the current Eastern Martial Art systems.

SCA fighting is roughly 50 years old. How codified and refined with different schools of thought were there 50 years into the chinese martial arts time line?

More established martial arts have had hundreds of years to develop, refine, and catagorize techniques and styles. The SCA has had 50 years. And if you really dissect that, it is probably closer to 40 years that fighters have REALLY been studying and refining technique.

I wonder how close to the more established Arts we will be in another 50 years?