Some kit advice

[Leikr]

I am looking for some advice on creating a better kit. If this is not the right forum, could the mods please move it. I am not deciding to be a certain person but just a loose time frame and location. I am interested in Scandinavia around 1380s to possibly 1400, yes the mafia but almost a thug. I had created some Wisby style lamellar which works alright for SCA combat, but is a bit out dated. I have purchased a nice new Onion Top Bascinet and I am feel I need to start rethinking my kit. I don't mind moving the time line a little, but I would like to stay with the Swedes because they are verkligen häftigt.

I have had no luck finding any Swedish effigies or even those that display onion tops. I figured I will need to base off of Northern Germany for most of the kit. Being that Wisby was part of the Hanseatic League, it should be easy to "justify" most German armor. Since the helm is picked I need to base the rest of the kit around that. I looked over quite a few effigies as well as scoured lots of threads here and what I have figured my options for body armor are a Globose breastplate of some sort, coat of plates, or possible a corrizana.

The issue I have with breastplate is the lack of back support, which SCA requires for at least the kidneys. The Churgurg breastplate has the wrap but it does not go all the way around. I could wear a sperate kidney belt but I had hoped to keep the kit legal but also authentic as I can. Also from what I gather the Churburg is more Italian than German. The same could be said about the Corrizana from what I have seen. It looks nice though. Since the rest of the gear will be based off the body, it is a major decision in the kit process. Currently I have a pair of padded cuisses and the legs seem ok for now. But the rest can go, including the horrible alummiumn arms anbd shoulders.

So some suggests would be great as the collective wisom is much better than the dust filled spaces of my gourd. Some things I do like, but I am not sure if they fit time wise, is voiders as opposed to a full maille shirt. I saw a post around with some nice looking voiders on the calfs. I think in my time frame I would have a encased greaves so not sure if it all goes together. I am trying to get a model in my head that I can work towards. A kit that will be my goal, but I just not sure what it should be.

Here is the helm I am getting except it will be blackened and have a rivetted maille aventail, that part is just not done yet.



Here is what my current generic SCA kit looks like.
[img]http://www.spiffyguy.com/images/sca/armor/full_armor_01.jpg[/img]

[zachos]

I haven't researched it too much, but I have a feeling that if you want a Klappvisor (the one on that helmet) then you might go for splinted legs. Here are some awesome stuff from poland that I think should work with a kit like that:

http://www.rivetedchainmail.pl/legs_11.html

http://www.rivetedchainmail.pl/legs_04.html

http://www.rivetedchainmail.pl/legs_01.html

http://www.rivetedchainmail.pl/hbarm_03.html

http://www.rivetedchainmail.pl/gauntlet_15.html

Also have a look at this site:

http://wolna.kompania.freshsite.pl/


None of this is mine by the way, I just am always looking at it for ideas for a future kit for myself.

[Lucian Ro]

http://wolna.kompania.freshsite.pl/

Wow. Wow. And ... wow.

[Galfrid atte grene]

Some thoughts for you. I'm gonna approach this from an tomb monument point of view - perhaps illuminations or other art might paint a different picture, no pun intended.

First, the closest tomb monument to your chosen location and time is that of Vicke van Vitzen, d. 1406. The tomb is an incised slab, in Skänninge, Sweden. Sadly, his shield obscures his upper armour, but he does appear to be wearing full legs, minus the back half, and sabatons. We can also see the bottom of his hauberk. So, if I was making this kit, I'd certainly use these elements.

Next, we must look outside Sweden for further examples in tomb monuments. In Denmark (still Scandinavia) there is the effigy of Duke Christoffer, d. 1363. This is a bit early for your time frame, but his armour was probably cutting edge at the time. He's wearing full legs and hauberk as well. His arms are covered by a typical german two-part arm harness (no couter but rather a bazuband-like forearm). He's wearing a jupon which obscures the body armour, like pretty much every other tomb monument of the mid-late 14th C.

Finally, there are a couple of incised slabs in the Doberan Münster (in the extreme north of Germany) which are possibly relevant. I don't have dating information on these, but their similarity to the Vitzen tomb and their armour style leads me to believe they're from the late 14th C. They're also wearing a jupon. The rest of their armour is pretty standard. Full arms and legs as seen throughout western europe.

These are just about the only relevant tomb monuments I know. If you want to expand to consider more of Germany than just the north, you'll have lots more options, but sadly 1380-1400 is pretty empty. If I was making this kit, I'd start with a hauberk (I believer voiders can only be documented in the 15th), legs like you have now plus half-greaves and sabatons. For the body, I'd pick whatever was easiest and plausible (you've mentioned your choices) and cover it with a jupon. Arms are trickier - absent other evidence I think you have some room to choose there. I'd probably play it safe and use full, standard 14th C style arms. The helm you already have taken care of.

Anyway, hope this helps. Maybe some other people can comment.

[Leikr]

Great info guys I certainly apprecieate it. zachos those links are great. I am not sure I would want to go splinted, but I recall seeing a link that had an assessment of all the effigies. I think they were only in England though, but it showed the years and the type of armor the effigies were wearing. If I remember correctly, the charts showed more articulated plate in the last decades as opposed to the earlier ones. I can't seem to find the link though. Those pictures are great. They have even more the picasa link http://picasaweb.google.pl/krzysztof.swiatkiewicz. I like these over at Albrecht's Gunnars, http://www.albrechts.se/Gallery.htm.

Galfrid atte grene thanks for the links, to be honest I am glad I am not the only one who could not find much on Swedish effigies. The information you have provided though is fantastic. Do you think that the Vitzen knees had that much of a point, or is that an artist exaguration? Also can you give me your opinion of this kit, http://histvarld.historiska.se/histvarld/draekter/1300sladel/index.html. It seems close to what you are describing. I would have to add a kidney belt or some such protection under the jupon though to meet SCA rules, but at least it would be hidden. In particular I am curious on the arms and shoulders. Normally I have seen segmented spaulders and not a single one piece. The elbow looks free floating to me but the text suggests it is two pieces connected with hinges. It looks like it is pointed though.

[bhaiduk]

Do you mean this? There are analysis of English, German and French.

[Leikr]

Yes that is the link. Thanks I have it book marked now.

[Gaston de Clermont]

Leikr,
You might want to track down a copy of Thordeman's book on Wisby. He has a number of pictures of 14th century Scandanavian armour which he used to justify many of his conclusions about the Wisby find which will give you a more specific context for your portrayal. Of course Dr. Strong's effigy analysis is helpful- just be aware that there may be some important differences is armour fashion trends between the countries you're looking at. For example, early in the century it's pretty common to see German harnesses with weapon chains. They didn't catch on as much elsewhere. Late in the century the English still preferred kind of a wife-beater style surcoat (see the Black Prince's effigy), while the French were moving to fuller sleeved jupons. The Swedes may have had their own quirks which you'd want to mimic. Figure out what your gang sign is and flash it, bro!

[Leikr]

I do have a PDF copy of the book and have spot read it a few times. The thing about the coat of plates is they were antiquated even at the Wisby time. The conclusion of a lot of the effigies show a rounded appearance, so there was a jupon worn but nothing stated as to what was under it. so that right there has caused much confusion for me. On the one hand I want to update my kit to look better and still maintain the SCA legality, but I don't want to half ass it and have to redo many points later to get more historically accuracy. Best to try to get it accurate from the start. But what are the hiding under their little Jupons?

The links Galfrid provided offer great insight for me and give me something to start tracking down. While my legs are passable, they are still pretty generic. So do I get knees that are shaped like the Vitzen tomb? are they floating or attached to the cuisse and is that cuisse plate or splinted. Those types of things are what I am trying to figure out.

Another example of puzzlement to me would be some of the data in Tablot's effigy analysis for the 1380s in Germany. It shows the bulk of the shoulder armor as integrated, or "the spaulders are an articulated extension of the rebrace". But most of the late 14th century spaulders I have seen are independent. While I know things are not cut and dry, these are some of the things I don't have enough knowledge so I go poking around here.

[Galfrid atte grene]

Do you think that the Vitzen knees had that much of a point, or is that an artist exaguration? Also can you give me your opinion of this kit, http://histvarld.historiska.se/histvarld/draekter/1300sladel/index.html.

I don't know how accurate the knee shape is on Vitzen's tomb. I haven't seen such an exaggerated shape on any effigies (3D).
I think the kit in the link is a pretty good late 14th century suit. He matches pretty well to a number of tomb monuments. The arm harness looks a little plain (especially compared to his legs) so it might just be a simplification since it's hidden anyway. But, the Germans do have odd arm harnesses depicted on tombs, quite different that the typical form associated with England and France. I'm faced with a similar situation with respect to the body armour. My solution is to just wear a simple globose (depicted on tombs and extant example @ Churburg) and slide some plates into pockets on the inside of my arming coat to cover the kidneys.

Another example of puzzlement to me would be some of the data in Tablot's effigy analysis for the 1380s in Germany. It shows the bulk of the shoulder armor as integrated, or "the spaulders are an articulated extension of the rebrace". But most of the late 14th century spaulders I have seen are independent

From what I've seen, the Germans weren't big on spaulders in general in the 1380s. But those that I did see are integrated. Do you have an example of one that is independent?

Also, I did some searching around and stumbled across two more extreme northern Germany incised tomb slabs from the 1380s.
Berthold Maltzan (1382, Rühn)
Joachim Nortman von Rossewitz (1389, Recknitz)

So ... we see pointy(ish) poleyns on both these guys. I think these are probably more realistic than Vitzen's. Greaves and sabatons are still constant. Sadly, as usual, the body armour isn't really revealed, and the arm harnesses are a bit ambiguous. But still, its a little more material. Hope it helps.

[Leikr]

When I think of integrated I think of the spaulder actually attached to the rebrace like this when I guess they probably mean the spaulder is articulated like this one at windrose.

Those effigies are great. They do seem to both have encased greaves or am I not seeing that right. The arms on that link I provided do look plain. but as you said it is under the jupon. This effigy shows those pointed knees pretty good. It is further south, towards the larger collection of effigies.

[Gaston de Clermont]

I don't know how accurate the knee shape is on Vitzen's tomb. I haven't seen such an exaggerated shape on any effigies (3D).

I generally agree that the point of the knee cop is likely to be a bit exaggerated. I see a similar angularity in the knees in Du Guesclin's effigy here:
http://burgundianhours.blogspot.com/200 ... ction.html
The dauphin's cop you see on that page isn't quite as pointy, but it shows some similar lines.
And that funky tab inside the knee cop reminds me of the van Heers brothers you see here:
http://burgundianhours.blogspot.com/200 ... ction.html
So what you're seeing in Vitzen's tomb might be a bit stylized, but it's not entirely unique. Folks really might have worn armour that looked kind of like that.

[Galfrid atte grene]

When I think of integrated I think of the spaulder actually attached to the rebrace like this when I guess they probably mean the spaulder is articulated like this one at windrose.

I'm pretty sure integrated does mean attached to the rerebrace.

I found a couple more incised slabs depicting guys in armour from the northern-most part of Germany. Here's a complete list 1380-1410.

Werner and Mathias von Axekow
Johann and Werner von Axekow
Mathias and Clawes von Axekow
Berthold Maltzan
Thidericus von Sukow
Nikolaus von Smeker
Joachim Nortman von Rossewitz
Johannes Moltke
Johann von Bassewitz
Heinrich von der Lühe
Heinrich Moltke

You can see that those fairly pointed knees are an ongoing theme.
There is also this bit of a painting I found on another forum. 1402, Sweden. I wish I knew where exactly it was located or what the rest looks like but unfortunately I don't.

[Leikr]

Galfrid that is a fantastic list. There is a definite pattern of pointy knees as well as full encased greaves too. From what I can tell as well the upper arm seems encased but I did not notice any spaulders depicted. That Swedish painting is very interesting. To me it looks defiantly like he is wearing a breastplate, but the decoration on the front makes me wonder if it would be considered a fabric covered one. Or perhaps that was just some decoration. There was discussion over in this thread about covered breastplates, although the debate seems to have them dated more 15th than late 14th. I wish I could flip some of these effigies over to see the back side and find out if there was any back protection other than a gambeson or the maille. I certainly appreciate the effort put into finding these. It is helping me put together a good idea of what I need to get done.