What is the functional reason for the demi-greave?

[Aaron]

Hi,

When I connected my demi-greave to my full greaves, I felt that my movement was hampered.

Why is this?

[Kaos]

Hampered, in what manner?

Maybe there isn't enough flex in the knee articulation?
Maybe your demi-greave doesn't allow a bit of lateral movement?
Maybe the strap which should connect your demi-greave to your greave is too tight?
Maybe your cuisses/poleyn don't allow enough 'stretch'?

There are so many factors, it's hard to tell withour more info.

[Aaron]

I rivetted the demi-greave to the full greave where it normally sat.

Then I ran. And I ran poorly.

When I strapped the demi-greave down, in the same location in regards to the full greave, I had very good mobility.

I know those who built the suits of armour for real use were not dummies. But I am. I just can't figure out why a greave and demi-greave would coexist on the same suit, but it works.

Oddly enough my Fight-Light-Flight suit has a full greave (leather) connected to the knee, and I do not have any issues with it.

[Sean Powell]

The purpose to a demi-greave in the mid 13th-15th century is to connect to the full greave. 3/4 suits appear much later and prior to the 13th I suspect they had different solutions.

I suspect that you are experiencing 2 things:

1) Armor based on armor intended to be worn from horesback may not be optimal for running in foot combat. It only needs to be optimal for riding.

2) Very few SCAdians or SCAdian armorers build greaves and fewer try to fit them together. If the location of the knee articulation isn't EXACTLY in the right loation then the greave will need to ride up or the quise down as the leg bends. For the typical SCAdian a deep knee bend is usually accompinied by bending the waist and kneeling which allows the quise to slide distally but running is a different dynamic.

Have your son take a picture of the side of your leg while standing normally and another in a squat and post them here. Look for any impingement or shifting of the main plates and where the articulation is moving. You may find it beneficial to disconnect the greave from the demi-greave for foot combat as well as running.

Luck!
Sean

[Konstantin the Red]

I rivetted the demi-greave to the full greave where it normally sat.

Riveted? The hardest fastening you should have there is a keyhole pin. A buckled strap around the top of the greave, belt-looping/hooking at center rear for integrity, is much more usual.

[losthelm]

depending on how you have your legs straped the lenth between your hip and top of the foot change a bunch when you move.
I suspect your greaves leg harness is moveing differently then your leg.

[Pitbull Armory]

Hi Aaron, I dont think the demi greave should be attatched to the greave ever. Ive seen them pinned in some examples like the Red said, but it cant be good. As soon as you connect them solid you lose the ability to twist your foot from side to side without twisting your entire leg armor at the same time. Ive found the greave/demi greave should stay free floating with just a strap but the may just be my opinion. To answer your question directly, id say the function of the demi greave is to form a socket for the greave to twist and move in.

Take care

Pitbull

[Sean Powell]

Hi Aaron, I dont think the demi greave should be attatched to the greave ever. Ive seen them pinned in some examples like the Red said, but it cant be good. As soon as you connect them solid you lose the ability to twist your foot from side to side without twisting your entire leg armor at the same time. Ive found the greave/demi greave should stay free floating with just a strap but the may just be my opinion. To answer your question directly, id say the function of the demi greave is to form a socket for the greave to twist and move in.

Take care

Pitbull

If the ankle mortise between the medial malleolus of the Tibia and the lateral malleolus of the Fibula allow more then a few degrees of twist then you are in for some serious pain in life. The tibia/talus joint rocks but isn't designed for twisting. Rotation of the leg occurs at the hip.

Quite a few late period suits have greaves that secure to the leg armor in one way or another. It's just tricky to get a proper range of motion for period use (and even harder for SCAdian knee-fighting) so most people don't do it.

Sean

[Pitbull Armory]

Hi Sean, The foot needs to be able to twist some move normally, Like upto a few inches, that movement doesent seem that painfull. As soon as you rivet some greaves solid to a knee joint you feel it become restrictive. Seems like free floating has to be the way to go here. If youve tried it and had it work, show us some pics of how its done or at least explain it.

Take care

Pitbull

[James Arlen Gillaspie]

The legharness for field harness made for mounted warefare works fine on foot once you get to about 1400 or so (I've read some earlier 14th c. accounts of English men-at-arms, in particular, ditching their legharness to fight on foot). SCAdian poleyns are typically made just plain wrong. They don't acknowledge the weird subtleties of the human leg. My greaves are pinned to the bottom lames of my poleyns, and they work fine. If you straighten your leg, hold it still and just wave your foot left-right-left, it's only about 30 degrees. The shape of the greave at the bottom just has to be right to allow for this.

[Kilkenny]

Hi Aaron, I dont think the demi greave should be attatched to the greave ever. Ive seen them pinned in some examples like the Red said, but it cant be good. As soon as you connect them solid you lose the ability to twist your foot from side to side without twisting your entire leg armor at the same time. Ive found the greave/demi greave should stay free floating with just a strap but the may just be my opinion. To answer your question directly, id say the function of the demi greave is to form a socket for the greave to twist and move in.

Take care

Pitbull

If the ankle mortise between the medial malleolus of the Tibia and the lateral malleolus of the Fibula allow more then a few degrees of twist then you are in for some serious pain in life. The tibia/talus joint rocks but isn't designed for twisting. Rotation of the leg occurs at the hip.

Quite a few late period suits have greaves that secure to the leg armor in one way or another. It's just tricky to get a proper range of motion for period use (and even harder for SCAdian knee-fighting) so most people don't do it.

Sean

I think there's a fairly simple way of testing how much rotation one gets from the knee down.

As I sit here with my heel on the floor and try to rotate my foot, I can get close to, but not quite, a 90 degree range. In doing that, I can distinctly tell when I am forced to shift the hip in order to go any further. Note that this range involves some rocking in the ankle as well as rotation and that I can feel shifting just below the knee at the extremes in each direction.

[William Frisbee]

Ifn it is made correctly you should never have an issue.



and in use:

[img]http://frisbeetechnologies.net/images/newlegs3.jpg[/img]

Greaves for the most part shouldn't be moving, which is why SOME demigreaves had a pin for the greaves themselves.

[Sean Powell]

I think there's a fairly simple way of testing how much rotation one gets from the knee down.

As I sit here with my heel on the floor and try to rotate my foot, I can get close to, but not quite, a 90 degree range. In doing that, I can distinctly tell when I am forced to shift the hip in order to go any further. Note that this range involves some rocking in the ankle as well as rotation and that I can feel shifting just below the knee at the extremes in each direction.

I think I'm scheduled to be in the cadaver lab for a tibia-nail and plate lab early next week. If I can I'll drive some schants screws through the tibia and the talus and see how much rotation I can measure. I should be able to post the x-rays without violating any confidentiality issues. Then I can take measurements off the x-rays.

When I sit in my chair with one leg across the other I can externally rotate my foot ~15 deg and internally about 30 without moving my knee... but the muscles are slack. When I stand and place downward pressure I have the same ~15 degrees external rotation but only maybe ~5-10 internally. The rest of the rotation is in the tibia plateu or the hip. Given my knees and desire not to tear my ACL I really don't want a lot of rotation in the knee-joint... but your body, your choice.

Doesn't change the fact that a number of late period suits do connect the greave to the leg. Either they were making some portion of the armor subtly different to accommodate it, they were using the armor differently then we do so it didn't matter, or they considered the value of the protection worth the inconvenience. I'm inclined to guess there was a mix of all three, but I'm biased towards we just don't make SCAdian armor to the same designs as good late period armor.

Sean

[Pitbull Armory]

Hi Guillaume, Nice legs there, those are free floating at the greave and demi greave like I was talking about, I love that setup. Now if I could just learn to shape my legs that nice! Thanks for the pics.


Take care

Pitbull

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Aaron, they also did not always wear greaves in the 15th&16thC.



Sometimes they just wore tall boots for lower leg protection, and this worked to pad the knees as well.



In which case, you'd much rather have a demi-greave than just the lower lame.

[William Frisbee]

Hi Guillaume, Nice legs there, those are free floating at the greave and demi greave like I was talking about, I love that setup. Now if I could just learn to shape my legs that nice! Thanks for the pics.


Take care

Pitbull

Pitbull, thanks a bunch. Bar none, these are the best legs I've owned. I literally wore these all day a couple of weekends ago. No binding, only one minor armour bite simply because I was wearing buckled boots, and not laced turnshoes or the like and my right greave was a bit higher than it should have been. Nothign major just a small red rub raw from the greave corner.

They are very comfortable and look damn sexy.

I do need to put a loop of metal on the back of the greave to stop the demi-greave strap from hiking up when I'm running (and yes, I can run full tilt in these legs).

[mrks]

hi there

very nice legs.

sport attachment works great for the sca. the knee pad is the strap and the leg floats on the elastic.

demigrieve is strapped to the grieve and floas slightly during motion.

real armour wasnt designed to be fought from the knees and in my opinion jumping around like a jackrabbit while kneeling requires a different hanging system.

works great of you dont mind it not being period.

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[Konstantin the Red]

The titanium neither mourns, nor weeps, nor grieves. Greaves don't grieve hardly at all, ever. And if your spellcheck guesses-and-replaces it... teach it otherwise.

[mrks]

thanks never considerd teh spelling

[Tom B.]

You can get all of the rotation you need with the greave rigidly fastened to the "demi greave". If properly fitted the greave will allow the foot to rotate without the greave itself rotating.

Try rotating your foot while holding your knee from the sides (so all of the roation occurs in the lower leg / foot). Notice that the lower leg does not move much or change shape much. A properly fitted greave will allow enough room at the ankle to allow for this motion. Mine do.



edited: to change with to without

[Baron Alcyoneus]

demigrieve is strapped to the grieve and floas slightly during motion.

real armour wasnt designed to be fought from the knees and in my opinion jumping around like a jackrabbit while kneeling requires a different hanging system.

works great of you dont mind it not being period.

I don't think I'd say it is entirely non-period. There were greaves that had staples on the backplate of the greaves for straps to go through.

[Kaos]

My greaves are also semi-rigidly attached to the demi-greaves, by a pin and staple combination. I don't have any problems at all, but the greave fits perfectly like it should. When I'm wearing just my greaves they stay in place, not sliding down, not riding up.

When the upper legs are added on, and leaning forward their weight fully rest on the greaves, without the greaves putting pressure on my foot. It's all suspended on my calves.

I really can't tell why your legs give you troubles..

[zachos]

My leg armour:



Has a pin in the side of the greave, which allows a nice little bit of lateral bend in the knee, so I can wrap my legs nicely round a horse that little bit more. I've never had any problems with them.

As for the reason, I would imagine it would help somewhat in stopping your leg from overextending. You don't want to break your knee or rip ligaments etc, and having the whole lot connected would prevent that a lot better than a floating arrangement.

[Jon Terris]

You just couldn't resist showing off your legs could you Zachos!

I think the original posting from Aaron has more to do with how he attached his greaves to his demi greaves.

There are a few methods that involve single posts or pins, some turn (and thereby prevent the plates from separating) some just locate the two plates together. Plenty of others rely on straps holding the demi greave on top of the greave.

I'm guessing Aaron that you tried riveting the legs together at either side in a similar fashion to the rest of the leg articulation?

All of the other methods will give varying degrees of movement between greave and demi greave, enabling you to move comfortably (possibly without even noticing the movement of the plates). Fixing the two together on both sides will pretty much prevent any movement other than forward/backward bending (which should happen at the knee joint- not below it).

Funny how you don't notice stuff til its gone, in this case a small amount of freedom to move!

JonT

[Pitbull Armory]

Hi there, wow thanks to all who posted pics of their legs, Fine armor there for sure. I will study them all and learn what I can.

Enrico I see a sliding rivet at the greave, demi greave joint that lets your foot twist side to side. Am I seeing this right? Anyone else see it?

Thanks for the pics guys you got some great armor

Have a good weekend

Pitbull

[Tom B.]

Enrico I see a sliding rivet at the greave, demi greave joint that lets your foot twist side to side. Am I seeing this right? Anyone else see it?

What you are seeing is the pin and key hole slot that connects the greave to the "demi greave". Once these are connected and the strap is buckled through the staple on the back of the greave there is no movement between the greve and the "demi greave".

Tom

[Baron Alcyoneus]

On some sets, you will find a post on the center front of the greave, and a series of three holes on the demi-greave. This is for sizing/fit.

[Tom B.]

You can get all of the rotation you need with the greave rigidly fastened to the "demi greave". If properly fitted the greave will allow the foot to rotate without the greave itself rotating.

Try rotating your foot while holding your knee from the sides (so all of the roation occurs in the lower leg / foot). Notice that the lower leg does not move much or change shape much. A properly fitted greave will allow enough room at the ankle to allow for this motion. Mine do.



edited: to change with to without

Note the above important edit.
I need to proof read my posts better.

Tom