What drives the size of Crown Lists?

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:03 am

Hi,

When I went to East crown it was huge. Same with West. Atlantia may have <10 fighting.

Why are some crown lists large and others small?

Kenwrec Wulfe · Post by **Kenwrec Wulfe** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:53 am

In the Middle, one factor is Pennsic. I am sure this would also be a factor in the East as well. Being Pennsic Crown for either the East or Middle adds a very large responsibility to the "normal" Royal duties.

I am sure this is a factor in other Kingdoms as well, but I would wager it is not to the degree of the Middle and East. I would also suspect that the other wars (Estrella, Gulf, Lillies, etc..) would have a effect on the list sizes as well.

I believe that another reason for the varying sizes is also the general regional attitudes towards what fighting in a Crown tourney means. In some Kingdoms, fighting in one is a show of one's service to the Kingdom, to assure that a fit and worthy "couple" sit the Thones. In others, it is a disservice to all in the list, to your consort, to the Crown and the Kingdom, to enter a Crown tourney unless you enter it with the intent to win.

I am also sure that there are as many answers to this question as their are fighters in the Known World...

My two cents (after having researched fighting in Crown last year)

Ingvarr · Post by **Ingvarr** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:55 am

Prosperity - if people don't feel that they can afford a reign, they are less likely to fight

Enthusiasm - Everyone goes through cycles of enthusiasm and lack thereof. If a person is burned out, they are probably less interested in reigning.

Location - If the Tournament is held in an area with a dense fighter population, you get a lot more people who have no chance or desire to win it in the list for the experience of it.

There are a lot of other factors that can play in but I'm guessing that these are the top 3.

Jess · Post by **Jess** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:13 am

Not so many years ago we had those 120 list Crowns in the Middle. Since our Crown events are indoors, this was kind of a huge pain and it took forever. Back then, there was an element of entering to be seen. Now, we have ToCs to "showcase" so Crown is regarded as more for people trying to actually win.

BdeB · Post by **BdeB** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:40 am

Lots of reasons. Here is one: Last night after practice I fill up my van (it was completely empty) and it cost me $50.

I keep hearing about this upturn in the economy, but I can assure you that I have yet to see it locally.

edricus · Post by **edricus** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:16 am

Number of active fighters in the kingdom.
Travel expences: for example Drachenwald fall tournament was in northern Germany, spring tournament was held in Finland.

Stefan ap Llewelyn · Post by **Stefan ap Llewelyn** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:28 am

For me it was mainly the cost of travelling to the tournament and then reigning if I won (ha - fat chance). In terms of money and time away from my, non SCA, wife and daughter.

DarkApprentice · Post by **DarkApprentice** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:46 am

Primarily, it all depends on who is in it.

If the top dog is in, people just won't bother (although this frees some people up to enter because then they can fight without having to worry about winning, crazy, I know). Generally though, when the top contender is in, some people just won't turn out- unless they feel a moral compunction to stop him, although they usually can't because the dude is owning the field and on a roll.

Other factors include the following:

Must something be righted or fixed?

Is there a mission- we lost Pennsic last year and have to kick ass?

Is a big old dog returning (how serious is the return)?

Is a new pup ruling the field- how hungry are they to win?

Is some thick/crazy/bad rep dude in Crown and we don't want him to win?

Is someone fighting for a lady people don't want to see on the thrown (yes this happens all the time)?

Politics, politics, politics...

Everyone should fight in Crown syndrome.

Crown is a showcase/ Crown is not a showcase.

All of these things factor into Crown sizes.

Personally, I think Crown should really just be about 16 or down. No one else really has a chance of winning. Generally, 4 or fewer do, and that is the real reason I consistently get the odds right- I can figure out who those 4 people are, not anything special... other than my +2 magic 8 ball of doom.

Generally, even when the list is large, I don't see many people pull out a random win. It happens occasionally, but usually not enough to make a difference.

Actually these are most of the same things that I consider when making odds on a Crown.

Enjoy!

DA

Payn · Post by **Payn** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:49 am

Out this away, the expectation is that the chattel can join in the entertainment. Fighting in tourney and fighting well is a test.

My ability to win crown is directly related to how many people I can food poison, and even a few of those people will need to get "Kerriganed". I can fight in crown with the expectation that I won't win, thus giving me the ability to fight in crown.

So, I guess, "Thank you" to those many that are better at fighting than me. As it lets me fight in the most prestigious tournament, yet let's the chances of the consequences be minimal.

Now, if there were a tornado that was sent from the heavens and sucked all my opponents into Botswana, I have the financial wherewithal to make it to events pretty much every weekend. As well as having a job with the flexibility to be able to make that happen.

Payn · Post by **Payn** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 11:54 am

I was also going to note, Crown is not our biggest tournament. Ursulmas, a winter demo/tourney in the Seattle area, regularly pulls fighters well over 100 fighters. This past Ursulmas had 160 fighters. 8 fields of 20 fighters doing a round robin on their field. The top 2 from each field advanced into the double elim tourney. This one has no baronial obligation attached. A simple prize tourney with a crap-ton of fighting to be had.

Iirc, the last Crown was 94 or 98 fighters? We've been hovering between 90 and 115 most of the time.

Syrfinn · Post by **Syrfinn** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 12:00 pm

DA pretty much nailed it.

I was taught, dont fight in Crown, unless you are planning on winning it, and can afford it. I know folks, who fight in them, cause they have fought in every crown tourney we have had, and dont want to break the streak, though I am thinking we are either down to 1 or 2 of them left, and maybe none. Will need to talk to Syr Bear and see how many of those we got left, he might be the only one left.

I'm fighting in this one, to be honest, cause I missed the competition.

Have skipped the last 2 crowns, but the week of both, was ancy and in a foul mood, cause I wasnt fighting in them. So getting back into the circuit. Plus, this will be the first Crown I have fought in here in AEthelmearc where I have weighed less than 250, currently, 227.

So it should be interesting. :p

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:38 pm

Aaron wrote:Hi,

When I went to East crown it was huge. Same with West. Atlantia may have <10 fighting.

Why are some crown lists large and others small?

I haven't seen official figures in years, but I would wager that in the East and West Kingdoms you have two of the three largest kingdoms by subscribing population - with the fairly reasonable corrollaries that the total populations correspond and that from a larger pool of potential candidates for Crown, you get a larger number of participants.

Looking at Atlantia I know that their population was substantially smaller back in the days when I routinely looked at such numbers. I don't imagine that they've grown to match the East, West or Middle in population. Hence I would expect smaller numbers on a straight statistical basis.

Then there are all the economic factors - better economy more people out of whatever population feel comfortable taking on the expense.

Demographic factors - how many potential competitors now fall into the group of people with family obligations that prevent them from seriously undertaking such a commitment ?

And the political ones, more or less as DA outlined. I think in smaller kingdoms the Big Dog factor is magnified, in that people figure their chances of getting past the Big Dog somehow are minimal in an already small list, while in kingdoms with more than thirty the odds of someone else taking out the Big Dog get better and your chances of getting past him seem good enough to make it worth a shot.

Cultural - does the kingdom have a tradition that belted fighters are expected to compete in Crown ? Does the Kingdom have restrictions on entering the tournament, say, unbelted fighters only by invitation ?

Dafydd · Post by **Dafydd** » Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:55 pm

I may be a poor choice to opine on this (I never fought in another Crown after winning one, all those years ago...), but that sort of thing has never stopped me from spouting off!

I think a big factor is the desire to see where you stand in relation to the best fighters in your kingdom. For an up-and-comer, there's an opportunity to learn and grow...and if that up-and-comer is at or nearing peer standard, a chance to show his or her stuff to the belted peers. In many kingdoms, Crown is the showcase tournament.

I would consider doing something like that myself. I'm not good enough, right now, to win an An Tir Crown, but it would be a good gauge of how much work I needed to do to get back into "contender" fettle. I could give a solid unbelted fighter a pretty tough test, which is a part of my duty as a knight. Of course, if I were actually fighting at contender standard, I wouldn't enter...I might win! =P

Here in An Tir, a good reason for a contender-class fighter not to enter is that our absurdly large (in area) kingdom means that the Crown is an enormous burden due to travel costs. An otherwise well-suited couple might decline simply because they can't afford literally thousands of dollars in travel expenses. But that's a matter for another time and place...

Mansur · Post by **Mansur** » Mon May 10, 2010 2:17 am

Down here in Caid, a Crown Lyst of 25 is considered higher than average these days.

I think another overlooked factor is just the fighting culture of the area.

As long as I've been active Caid's fighting culture seems to primarily revolve around the war. We field large war units at the major wars we attend. We have regular unit melee and tactics practices. The Iron Brigade, the fighting unit of Caid's largest Barony, has a monthly brigade practice, and seeing attendance of 100 fighters is not uncommon.

However, our ratio of war fighters to tourney fighters is extremely low. For example, the Corvus warband can easily put 60 fighters on the field for a war, but of those 60 fighters I can only count three that are active on the tournament field. the rest will get in armor once a month, and for wars.

So, our pool of tournament fighters is pretty small to begin with. Our ratio of Chivalry to Unbelts is also very very low. Always has been.

In addition to this, we take fighting in Crown pretty seriously. If you are going to fight in Crown, it is assumed that you are willing and capable of taking on the responsibilties (time and fiscal) that are associated with the job. After my first time in Crown semi-finals, my knight once said "anything could happen...[hotshot fighter x] could slip and break his ankle during a fight, and then you could blast through the rest of the list."

By contrast, the West, while they do indeed attend many big wars, and hold many in-kingdom wars, seem to be primarily a tourney culture. A huge number of tournaments, three Crowns per year, coronet tourneys for several principalities, and a huge number of tourney fighters, knights and dukes. No wonder they can put 100+ in a Crown List. We wouldn't have a list that large if every active tourney fighter in the Kingdom fought in Crown!

asbrand · Post by **asbrand** » Mon May 10, 2010 2:35 am

I've been to maybe 4 or 5 Crown Lists in the last 25 years, including our most recent one.

I don't recall ever seeing more than 25 entrants.

*shrug*

Dunno the reason in Meridies...could be tradition, or just logistics.

Qwertypolk · Post by **Qwertypolk** » Mon May 10, 2010 5:25 am

DarkApprentice wrote:Is someone fighting for a lady people don't want to see on the thrown (yes this happens all the time)?

I'm sorry... I can't help myself.
Is that like the opposite of being on the pull? :lol:

Duke Uther · Post by **Duke Uther** » Mon May 10, 2010 11:13 am

banzaimf wrote:I was also going to note, Crown is not our biggest tournament. Ursulmas, a winter demo/tourney in the Seattle area, regularly pulls fighters well over 100 fighters. This past Ursulmas had 160 fighters. 8 fields of 20 fighters doing a round robin on their field. The top 2 from each field advanced into the double elim tourney. This one has no baronial obligation attached. A simple prize tourney with a crap-ton of fighting to be had.

Iirc, the last Crown was 94 or 98 fighters? We've been hovering between 90 and 115 most of the time.

In the West good weather and makes a large list, as we have no letter of intent. Sunny weekend everyone shows up and fights in Crown.

DA, if we closed our list my squire would not have won Unbelted. I see surprise wins from time to time, it makes me feel like it is worth letting everyone fight. I was a surprise win a decade before. I do see where quantity over number of fighters in the list works for some places :wink:

AN-Tir has a Has an incredible fighting culture with lots of opportunity to fight in high caliber lists outside of Crown. In the West we only have Crown, it has become a catch 22 for me in Kingdom. If I fight in something other than Crown, few other Dukes or high end fighters present to fight. I feel bad taking out all my squires and the one or two Knights in a small list.

If I go fight in Crown at least I fight the best we got. Not many other places to really get your fight on in the West Kingdom at times. I know when I go to Estrella and I love the Outlands tourney and the Pick ups ! Pennisc is the same

Uther

Duke Uther · Post by **Duke Uther** » Mon May 10, 2010 11:24 am

Kilkenny wrote:
Aaron wrote:Hi,

When I went to East crown it was huge. Same with West. Atlantia may have <10 fighting.

Why are some crown lists large and others small?

I haven't seen official figures in years, but I would wager that in the East and West Kingdoms you have two of the three largest kingdoms by subscribing population - with the fairly reasonable corrollaries that the total populations correspond and that from a larger pool of potential candidates for Crown, you get a larger number of participants.

Looking at Atlantia I know that their population was substantially smaller back in the days when I routinely looked at such numbers. I don't imagine that they've grown to match the East, West or Middle in population. Hence I would expect smaller numbers on a straight statistical basis.

Then there are all the economic factors - better economy more people out of whatever population feel comfortable taking on the expense.

Demographic factors - how many potential competitors now fall into the group of people with family obligations that prevent them from seriously undertaking such a commitment ?

And the political ones, more or less as DA outlined. I think in smaller kingdoms the Big Dog factor is magnified, in that people figure their chances of getting past the Big Dog somehow are minimal in an already small list, while in kingdoms with more than thirty the odds of someone else taking out the Big Dog get better and your chances of getting past him seem good enough to make it worth a shot.

Cultural - does the kingdom have a tradition that belted fighters are expected to compete in Crown ? Does the Kingdom have restrictions on entering the tournament, say, unbelted fighters only by invitation ?

If you want to be made a Knight you need to fight Crown in the West. That is in BIG part why we have so many people fighting in Crown, it is possible but not the norm to see fighters Knighted who are not actively fighting Crown.

Uther

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Mon May 10, 2010 11:40 am

Fighting at Crown in the West was wonderful. Even though my skill is meager, I felt there was a togetherness there. People were happy to see me, talk to me, fight me and get me a drink. Every bout was a lot of fun for me. It was a good time. Definately a party atmosphere IMO.

And I really loved the "grand melee" concept and will incorporate that into any tournament I run. When I ran the Baronial Tournament in Japan (like a mini-crown tournament) we did that format.

Two rounds of fighting, followed by a grand melee of everyone who can legally fight and wants to, followed by two rounds of fighting, etc...

It gave the "bookies" time to do the paperwork issues and re-planning while the fighters were just off playing and having fun. A win-win IMO!

-Aaron

Talorgen · Post by **Talorgen** » Mon May 10, 2010 12:14 pm

I have it on good authority that Their Highnesses Atlantia are actively trying to figure out ways to encourage a larger Crown Tourney here. I'm pretty sure that Their Majesties share the same desire.

If you're an Atlantian fighter and are not fighting in Crown, is there a particular reason why not? Is there something that can be done to make it more likely that you would consider it? They probably cannot make it any easier on the victor, of course...

I know that I plan to be fighting unless something changes between now and the next Crown.

-Tal

Broadway · Post by **Broadway** » Mon May 10, 2010 12:27 pm

Talorgen wrote:If you're an Atlantian fighter and are not fighting in Crown, is there a particular reason why not?
-Tal

$$$ and Time

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Mon May 10, 2010 12:46 pm

For my part, I would never fight in a crown list until I felt I had sufficient skill to be a credible entrant. I would not want to make a mockery of such a solemn occasion.

Steve

WilliamThomas · Post by **WilliamThomas** » Mon May 10, 2010 12:51 pm

Talorgen wrote:If you're an Atlantian fighter and are not fighting in Crown, is there a particular reason why not?

Well I have considered fighting in crown a couple of times and submitted a letter of intent. I normally train for crown even if I am not planning on fightingâ€¦. but I guess that is not what you asked. I believe my biggest reason for not fighting in crown is simply, I donâ€™t have a consort that I want to put on the throne. Before things get carried away, there are many wonderful ladies in this fair Kingdom that would do an amazing job. I am just saying I have not found one that I could work with and shares the same dream I have. Once I have found my proper inspiration I will focus all of my energy and my being into winning the crown for this lady.

Sir William

Tailoress · Post by **Tailoress** » Mon May 10, 2010 1:11 pm

WilliamThomas wrote:I am just saying I have not found one that I could work with and shares the same dream I have. Once I have found my proper inspiration I will focus all of my energy and my being into winning the crown for this lady.

Sir William

Too bad cross-kingdom kings aren't allowed here in the East. You'd make a badass king, IMO, and I think you'd be well-liked in the East. But whatever lady inspires your commitment to kingship in your native land will be a lucky one indeed.

-Marcele

Duke Uther · Post by **Duke Uther** » Mon May 10, 2010 3:57 pm

Tasha K wrote:
WilliamThomas wrote:I am just saying I have not found one that I could work with and shares the same dream I have. Once I have found my proper inspiration I will focus all of my energy and my being into winning the crown for this lady.

Sir William

Too bad cross-kingdom kings aren't allowed here in the East. You'd make a badass king, IMO, and I think you'd be well-liked in the East. But whatever lady inspires your commitment to kingship in your native land will be a lucky one indeed.

-Marcele

If you had an open list you never know who would show up :wink:

Sigifrith Hauknefr · Post by **Sigifrith Hauknefr** » Mon May 10, 2010 4:45 pm

Kilkenny wrote:I haven't seen official figures in years, but I would wager that in the East and West Kingdoms you have two of the three largest kingdoms by subscribing population - with the fairly reasonable corrollaries that the total populations correspond and that from a larger pool of potential candidates for Crown, you get a larger number of participants.

This cannot possibly be true. The West Kingdom on the "middlin'" side by both "population pool" and probably on the small side for "active fighters" (I would say ~200 - rarely more than 1/2 that at a given event). An Tir, which I believe has the biggest crown tournies, is even smaller.

I admit I have never seen "official subscribing" numbers. In 2007 I tried to estimate the population basis of SCA Kingdoms:

Middle 43,833,131
East 38,749,223*
Atlantia 25,008,385
Ansteorra 24,302,474**
West 19,561,013**, ***
Caid 18,147,361**
Aethlemark 17,437,100
Trimaris 15,982,378
Meridies 15,478,195
Calontir 12,921,216
Glenn Abhann 12,831,676
Northshield 11,680,198*
An Tir 9,315,520*
Outlands 6,367,198**
Atenveldt 5,130,632
Artemisia 4,676,208

Lohcac, Drachenwald and Ealdormere left off.
* East, An-Tir, Northshield Canadian population uncounted. It's unclear how to weight these, especially by province. The East has ca. 8M Canadian residents, An Tir about 9M,. Northshield seems to have <1M Canadians. By comparison Ealdormere would have about 12-13M.

** I didn't go county-by-county to split up California and Texas. I approximated by major metro area in California. Probably about 1M of "Ansteorra" is actually Outlands (El Paso+). It seems likely that I have shorted Caid relative to the West, but I would call it approx. equal.

*** Asia omitted

Take these numbers with a GIANT BLOCK OF SALT. It was just a guess.

Atenveldt seems to have the highest ratio of SCA fighters to population.

Saritor · Post by **Saritor** » Mon May 10, 2010 7:03 pm

El Paso only accounts for 750-800K. Close to your million, but not quite there.

The Outlands portion of Wyoming is maybe 300K, tops. Major populated areas that also have SCA groups are only ~190K. (Rounded up.)

We also lose a bit of Colorado, but only Vail, and parts west of the Rockies in that pocket.

I think we estimated out population base at about 6.5M a three-four years ago when I was part of the seneschal's office (and easily bored), so you're pretty close as-is.

Current estimate would be a maximum of 8 million for the Outlands circa 2010.

Rana · Post by **Rana** » Tue May 11, 2010 12:46 pm

Steve -SoFC- wrote:For my part, I would never fight in a crown list until I felt I had sufficient skill to be a credible entrant. I would not want to make a mockery of such a solemn occasion.

Steve

This is my feeling as well. To me, it's not just another fighting opportunity, not just another learning opportunity. I'm a speedbump already in a regular tourney, I don't need to be a Crown Tournament speed bump as well.

Payn · Post by **Payn** » Tue May 11, 2010 1:08 pm

Rana wrote:
Steve -SoFC- wrote:For my part, I would never fight in a crown list until I felt I had sufficient skill to be a credible entrant. I would not want to make a mockery of such a solemn occasion.

Steve

This is my feeling as well. To me, it's not just another fighting opportunity, not just another learning opportunity. I'm a speedbump already in a regular tourney, I don't need to be a Crown Tournament speed bump as well.

The counter to that is "Excellence breeds Excellence" Even being a speed bump can be a learning experience, for both parties. Then again, that is part of our kingdom culture.

Amanda M · Post by **Amanda M** » Tue May 11, 2010 2:41 pm

[quote="Sigifrith Hauknefr"

Atenveldt seems to have the highest ratio of SCA fighters to population.[/quote]

Heh. I wonder what that says about us?

Ogedei · Post by **Ogedei** » Tue May 11, 2010 2:55 pm

Dafydd wrote:I may be a poor choice to opine on this (I never fought in another Crown after winning one, all those years ago...), but that sort of thing has never stopped me from spouting off!

I think a big factor is the desire to see where you stand in relation to the best fighters in your kingdom. For an up-and-comer, there's an opportunity to learn and grow...and if that up-and-comer is at or nearing peer standard, a chance to show his or her stuff to the belted peers. In many kingdoms, Crown is the showcase tournament.

I would consider doing something like that myself. I'm not good enough, right now, to win an An Tir Crown, but it would be a good gauge of how much work I needed to do to get back into "contender" fettle. I could give a solid unbelted fighter a pretty tough test, which is a part of my duty as a knight. Of course, if I were actually fighting at contender standard, I wouldn't enter...I might win! =P

Here in An Tir, a good reason for a contender-class fighter not to enter is that our absurdly large (in area) kingdom means that the Crown is an enormous burden due to travel costs. An otherwise well-suited couple might decline simply because they can't afford literally thousands of dollars in travel expenses. But that's a matter for another time and place...

Ahh The Kingdom Of Avacal. Has a nice ring to it....

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Tue May 11, 2010 2:56 pm

Sigifrith Hauknefr wrote:
Kilkenny wrote:I haven't seen official figures in years, but I would wager that in the East and West Kingdoms you have two of the three largest kingdoms by subscribing population - with the fairly reasonable corrollaries that the total populations correspond and that from a larger pool of potential candidates for Crown, you get a larger number of participants.

This cannot possibly be true. The West Kingdom on the "middlin'" side by both "population pool" and probably on the small side for "active fighters" (I would say ~200 - rarely more than 1/2 that at a given event). An Tir, which I believe has the biggest crown tournies, is even smaller.

I admit I have never seen "official subscribing" numbers. In 2007 I tried to estimate the population basis of SCA Kingdoms:

Middle 43,833,131
East 38,749,223*
Atlantia 25,008,385
Ansteorra 24,302,474**
West 19,561,013**, ***
Caid 18,147,361**
Aethlemark 17,437,100
Trimaris 15,982,378
Meridies 15,478,195
Calontir 12,921,216
Glenn Abhann 12,831,676
Northshield 11,680,198*
An Tir 9,315,520*
Outlands 6,367,198**
Atenveldt 5,130,632
Artemisia 4,676,208

Lohcac, Drachenwald and Ealdormere left off.
* East, An-Tir, Northshield Canadian population uncounted. It's unclear how to weight these, especially by province. The East has ca. 8M Canadian residents, An Tir about 9M,. Northshield seems to have <1M Canadians. By comparison Ealdormere would have about 12-13M.

** I didn't go county-by-county to split up California and Texas. I approximated by major metro area in California. Probably about 1M of "Ansteorra" is actually Outlands (El Paso+). It seems likely that I have shorted Caid relative to the West, but I would call it approx. equal.

*** Asia omitted

Take these numbers with a GIANT BLOCK OF SALT. It was just a guess.

Atenveldt seems to have the highest ratio of SCA fighters to population.

So, mm.. you admit to not having seen official subscribing numbers - yet you state that my observation cannot possibly be true.

Do I need to expound ?

Sigifrith Hauknefr · Post by **Sigifrith Hauknefr** » Tue May 11, 2010 5:26 pm

Gavin -

with the fairly reasonable corrollaries that the total populations correspond and that from a larger pool of potential candidates for Crown, you get a larger number of participants.

This is the part that seems to be belied by the demographics... although it's possible that I simply misunderstood you here.

However, "membership rolls" (numbers which are unknown to both of us) is still just a proxy for "Active" members which is still just a proxy for "Fighting members" which is STILL just a proxy for Crown Tourney pools, and probably not even a very good one. Is it better than raw population? Probably.

Which is why I included the ancedotal, highly unscientific evidence of West Kingdom army size (ca. 200, no more than 1/2 that at given event).

BUT... I will amend my hyperbolic statement from "that can't possibly be true" to "I will take that wager".

Also, since An Tir actually has the largest Crown tournies I think we are not likely to see a correlation between subscribing members and Crown tourney size.

Vebrand · Post by **Vebrand** » Wed May 12, 2010 4:02 am

Culture, culture, culture.

You can preach it all day but really till you live it you don't understand. The differnt Kingdoms in the SCA have vast different cultures. Crown and fighting in crown are viewed different in different Kingdoms and the importance put on it is viewed differently.

Yes I have lived all over the SCA and seen the culture difference.

Vebrand

What drives the size of Crown Lists?

What drives the size of Crown Lists?

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