[SCA] Poll: Sport or authentic kit?

[Jose Cabrera de Castilla]

When you fight, is your goal to be in a kit that is as historically accurate as possible (including any limitations this might cause to your movement/vision) or to minimize the impact your kit has on these things and be as effective as possible for the "sport" aspect of the hobby?

For the most part, this may mean very little in terms of your actual kit as it is, it's more of an assessment of intent and attitude toward SCA combat. Do you do it to feel like a real historical fighter or do you do it to be the best possible fighter you can be regardless of historical accuracy?

Personally, I fall on the extreme "authentic at the expense of sport effectiveness" end of things. I want to feel like I'm wearing the kind of outfit I should be wearing and all the right armour over it to represent my persona. In my case a 16th century Spaniard in a continental mercenary company, wearing a 3/4 or cap-a-pie harness for war combat as either a rodelero (sword and shield) or doppelsoldner (greatsword) depending on how I'm choosing to fight. I like the feeling of being encased in steel, and I feel more like a soldier and more in touch with the combat aspect of my persona the more I get into more and more accurate armour.

(Having a little trouble making this post into a poll... looks like I don't have rights to make polls. Would a mod kindly do so?)

Poll: "My desired kit is:"
* Authentic even if this sacrifices sport effectiveness
* Mostly authentic except when it would hinder me
* Somewhere between the two extremes
* Sport, but with a nod to authenticity so long as it doesn't hinder me
* Sport, I wear plastic (hidden or not) and leather to reduce weight or increase mobility even if my persona would not have these things
* My persona's arming and armouring is so far from SCA requirements that I have no choice but to be inaccurate in my portrayal

[Armourkris]

A Bit of both.
The only plastic in my kit is my cup, the only parts of me that arent covered by plates are my upper arms and shins. I'm currently about 1/3 of the way through adding maille sleeves and swapping out the existing maille with riveted maille. then I'll be building myself some greaves.

That said, my thigh, torso, and neck armour is all made from 20ga. tempered steel. My harness weighs in somewhere around 40 pounds right now. once i add the greaves and finish the sleeves i figure I'll be pushing 50 pounds. I think that's a very reasonable weight for a full suit of maille and plates. I've picked up duffel bags of plastic armour that weigh the same or more than mine.

[Dafydd]

Historical here (see below). Only my cup and my hexpad pads under the arms and legs are plastic...nothing that shows. My close helm has a vertical bargrill face, but that's actually documentable (pic's in an archive here on AA, in fact...I'll try to find and link it). No greaves and sabatons yet, and I plan to get full-coverage pauldrons for war, but I'm getting close to cap-a-pie.

However, the arms, legs and spalders are very light spring steel, so there's not much compromise for sport fighting, really. My own advancing age and (more importantly) crap physical conditioning slow me down far more than my armor, sad to say.

Now that said, if for some insane reason it became really, really important for me to win a tournament, I do have the option of taking off the cuirass and wearing a plastic spine and solar plexus protector under the leather jack, along with the excellent Torvaldr splinted kidney belt I have. I could also drop the arms for motocross stuff under a puffy-sleeve shirt, although with the spring steel arms, that would save less weight than you might think.

I just can't think why I'd want to do that. I don't really have anything to prove at this stage of my SCA fighting career, and I really, like fighting in kit that matches my persona! Plus, there's something wonderful about taking an over-amped halberd shot at a war and simply saying, "good shot." Not "OWWWW...good shot" and hoping your ribs aren't broken!

[img]http://www.pandsphoto.com/Joust%20web/content/bin/images/large/pandsphoto.com_33.jpg[/img]

[Eamonn MacCampbell]

Eventually, mine will be as historic as I can get...Full maille,CoP and a visored sugarloaf...I can't stand it when I see people wearing motocross gear and making no attempt to hide it and say can fight better with it...Maybe you can...But you look like ass...Thems are the guys I tend to go after in a melee..Just for fun...I can see exactly wear thier armour is and isn't...

[Zafir al-Th'ib]

Dead sexy, Sir Dafydd.

For me, it is simple: I'm either doing armoured combat, or I am not. If I'm doing armoured combat, I should probably wear armour, no? For me, it's an authentic kit or bust, or, rather, a steady evolution from my current kit toward authenticity.

[Louis de Leon]

I'm doing that same evolution Vettor.

And honestly the more authentic my gear has become, the better it is to move around in. My original kit was a horrific mishmash of hockey pads, bent stop signs, and off the shelf mild bits. My current kit is much more correct and all spring, except for my stainless helmet and aluminum breastplate. And properly pointed to a good gambeson. It moves 1000% better.

I have a new kit in the works that should be even better. More authentic too. My current kit is scattered across about 200 years. Next one should be more contained. And I'll ditch the aluminum too - all spring, except for my hat.

[Micah Nelson]

I don't see any reason not to do both if you can.

[Johann Lederer]

My DESIRED kit is 100% accurate head to toe. At this present, it is not a realistic goal for me for many reasons. Eventually, sure...

I have a combination kit, it isn't ugly, but it isn't 100% accurate either. It has gotten better in 4 years, but fun, for me, is in the journey...not the destination...

[DarkApprentice]

IMHO either can be effective.

A period kit, if properly made and fit, can be just as sporty as anything else out there.

Some period kits, however, will not be good for SCA combat, they aren't made for it.

I have seen plenty of sporty kits that were porrly made and moved worse and weighed more than many period kits.

DA

[Aaron]

Whatever makes you happy.

I enjoy my cap-a-pie suit best, but when I want to do sword-and-buckler and "fence heavy" the FLF suit works well.

I try and mimic the historical kits because I'm lazy. They put their lives on the line in those suits, and they were as smart as we are now. So I expect the suits to work. Second guessing them with my part time, hobby wisdom is foolish IMO.

If others can outsmart those who lived and died by these suits, good! But I am lazy and not that smart.


And if you are having fun, you are doing it right IMO, be it sport or authentic.

[Graedwyn]

I go for as historically accurate as possible for the
visible parts (cannot get away from bar grille and
gauntlets even with an 11th century portrayal).
But everything not visible, which means armour
that I would not have been wearing in the 11th
century, that the SCA requires, can be sport armour.

-Graedwyn

[Kenwrec Wulfe]

100% authentic (minus the cup and rattan weapon) is my goal.

my under kit is already 100% wool and linen. Still have work to do on the outer layers...

[Milan H]

Period kit != sacrificing sport effectiveness.


Cheers,

[Jestyr]

I go for as historically accurate as possible for the
visible parts (cannot get away from bar grille and
gauntlets even with an 11th century portrayal).
But everything not visible, which means armour
that I would not have been wearing in the 11th
century, that the SCA requires, can be sport armour.

-Graedwyn

This, with the addition that stainless is an acceptable substitute for mild.

[Qwertypolk]

Currently, my kit is somewhat ugly, and a mishmash of period pieces (see picture in link below) but it gets the job done. I couldn't stand to be seen in plastic or leather (where it's not accurate for my persona to be seen in such)

This year, I'm hoping for my kit to undergo a radical change. I'm speaking with one armourer about a cuirass and another about a set of arms in carbon steel. New hose and proper shoes will be next, followed by new leg harnesses, a brayiette, and finally, pauldrons. Unfortunately, I'm doing this on a student's budget
To imitate fighting with the visor up, I also have an interchangable bargrill visor for my armet. That is the furthest towards inaccuracy I am willing to go in my kit when I'm done.


If I'm honest, Aaron has been my biggest motivator for kit, he looks great on the field, and I'd personally prefer that, to fighting well on the field, not that Aaron doesn't.
That said, I'm sure that, if our ancestors were able to improve their armour through modern materials and processes, they'd jump at the chance. With the SCA being a modern sport, I have no problems with others doing so, so long as they don't chide me for choosing not to.


http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd23 ... C_0052.jpg

[Aaron]

Thank you! I'm very honored!

That being said, the route can be a lonely one. All of us cap-a-pie fighters have an alternate kit. Josh leads us and has for a decade.

[Qwertypolk]

An alternate kit is on its way. I'm making and remaking greathelms until I'm happy with one of my own, I have maille and am working in trading for some poleyns and couters, and my missus is working on some aliettes with my heraldry on them.

That'll be my light kit, and should tide me over 'till I'm happy with my cap-a-pie one. I'm hoping to sell off my Lancaster arms and legs (with pipe greaves) rather soon. to make way (and cash) for the nice new ones.

[Corwin_Roberts]

I don't see it as a sliding scale so much as four independent attributes:

1. Protection
2. Authenticity
3. Mobility
4. Affordability

At the moment I place protection slightly higher than the others, but the rest are of approximately equal importance.

[Sir Guy]

Whatever kit that allows me to just get out and fight.

[Greenshield]

I shoot for authenticity. My SCA kit is the same kit I use for LH shows in the states and over seas. The only additions are those required by the SCA. For an early period kit this can be a bit of a challenge but it's all covered and low profile.


GreenShield

[Aaron]

An alternate kit is on its way.

Good!

Not only will this allow you to fly around and fight, but you can gain understanding on what the "standard" SCA heavy fighter thinks behind their grill. Gaining understanding of the strengths and weaknessess of the style lets me perform better in my cap-a-pie rig. I can put myself in their helmet and see out of their grill in a way.

-Aaron

[Eirik]

Whatever kit that allows me to just get out and fight.

This has been me from day 1. I eventually try to make it look less like ass and more like class, and I do prefer to fight in armour I made myself, but frankly if all I've got is craptastic but legal enough to let me on the field, I'll be out there.

[Zafir al-Th'ib]

Whatever kit that allows me to just get out and fight.

This has been me from day 1. I eventually try to make it look less like ass and more like class, and I do prefer to fight in armour I made myself, but frankly if all I've got is craptastic but legal enough to let me on the field, I'll be out there.

It is a good place to start, so long as one keeps moving forward.

[Blackoak]

Period kit != sacrificing sport effectiveness.


Cheers,

Straight up bullshit.



I sure as hell wouldn't wear mail if I wanted to be more sport effective, yet somehow I manage to fight like a knight. Its called training and dedication.

Uric

[Aaron]

Whatever kit that allows me to just get out and fight.

This has been me from day 1. I eventually try to make it look less like ass and more like class, and I do prefer to fight in armour I made myself, but frankly if all I've got is craptastic but legal enough to let me on the field, I'll be out there.

It is a good place to start, so long as one keeps moving forward.

There is a certain beauty in simplicity. IMO there is no problem with starting with a basic kit and staying right there. It's just not for me.


There are days I envy Sir Guy's view on the SCA. His view or my view are just different views, neither better than the other.

But his is far more simple, easy and portable. Have armour, will travel, basically.

[raito]

* Authentic even if this sacrifices sport effectiveness

Except that it doesn't.

* Sport, I wear plastic (hidden or not) and leather to reduce weight or increase mobility even if my persona would not have these things

I wear plastic because the original material I ought to have is neither affordable nor maintainable, and plastic is the best simulation available for it, in weight and look. It neither reduces weight nor increases mobility.

* My persona's arming and armouring is so far from SCA requirements that I have no choice but to be inaccurate in my portrayal

Partly. My persona would have had minimal knee and elbow protection, and no groin protection. And the norm would have been minimal face and neck protection.

[Sigurd Fjalarson]

Blackoak, maybe I'm misreading your comment, but Milans comment should be read as "Period kit does not equal sacrificing sport effectiveness."

I assume hes coded before, as != is the c++ "does not equal" operand.

If I misjudged, ignore this.

[Jose Cabrera de Castilla]

Blackoak, maybe I'm misreading your comment, but Milans comment should be read as "Period kit does not equal sacrificing sport effectiveness."

I assume hes coded before, as != is the c++ "does not equal" operand.

If I misjudged, ignore this.

I read Blackoak's comment as meaning "Period kit DOES mean sacrificing sport effectiveness, because if I wanted to be more effective, I wouldn't wear so much heavy chain. But I work harder to overcome that burden and be a good fighter anyway."

And @Blackoak: I dig that greatsword, Sir. Looks like fittings from Windrose? Are you using the two-handed low profile thrusting tip? If so, how does it perform? I am looking to make one in the future, 16th c. style with a ricasso.

[Aaron]

The kit really doesn't inhibit the sport much. Sadly I'm just as slow in my FLF kit as my cap-a-pie kit. It's not the kit. It's me.

-Aaron

[Qwertypolk]

The kit really doesn't inhibit the sport much. Sadly I'm just as slow in my FLF kit as my cap-a-pie kit. It's not the kit. It's me.

-Aaron

I agree to some extent, but can't do so fully. Even a perfectly fitted, thin gauge harness made with spring steel will have performance issues when compared to someone fighting out of armour, or in very little armour, thus why we see different ways of fighting depending on what one is (or isn't) wearing in period manuals. Cavalry would often wear full helms, for the charge, while infantry would often opt for visibility etc.
Added to that, that the SCA is a very modern way of fighting, I just can't see it as possible that a full harness can be as effective as something designed specifically for our purpose.

We only pretend to be medieval fighters, we cannot truely represent their art without sharp weapons, period techniques and greedy leaders.
We only have 1/3

[Aaron]

My dream suit will take me well into my golden years IMO. And I've found my "niche" of counted blows with pollaxe, estoc, etc...

Within the next ten years I will have a version of this suit out of spring-stainless, and under 60 lbs and portable. And then I will be VERY happy.

I've dreamed of this suit since 1997. It is not the most effective SCA suit, but I think it will be very effective for what I want to be in the SCA.

Neck injuries later in life seem to be common with some of my friends in the SCA. The neck protection will help IMO. It mostly looks like crushing injury from an impact from the top.

[Takeyama]

I vote in the Authenticity crowd

[Diglach Mac Cein]

Seen guys in wonderfully authentic looking kits who kick butt all over any field you like.

Seen guys with gear tweaked for "sport" to the extreme - only the helm is vaugley period-ish, and couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag.

It isn't always the kit.

In fact, in my estimation, it usually ISN'T the kit.


.

[Seaan O'Hagan]

Authenticity- For my 1190-1220 "infantry" kit I hide kidney and sternum protection, leather elbow cops and metal knee cops under maille and robes. My conical has a maille drape that hides most of the bargrille. My next step is a Mac Bible hat from WMA, maille chausses, a maille coif and a longer maille haubrek so I can have a 1250 "cavalry" kit too.
I've fought in lighter, more "sporty" kits and I feel like I fight as well or better in what I am in. The combenation of maille and gambesen absorbs a lot of punnishment allowed me to ditch shoulder cops, upper arm protection, lower arm protection and to lighten my gorget (drape). I feel a lot more in touch with the fight and have a lot more confidence in my calibration than when I was fighting in a plastic sport kit. Aside from tha fact the It looks WAAAAAYYYYY cooler

[Sigurd Fjalarson]

Ah, see Jose, i was reading it both ways and was unsure how he meant it.

I agree with your point tho, while you might sacrifice a bit with the authentic kit, its nothing that can't be made up through hard work and discipline.

And I believe me and you are both doing the same general period, so it's one we get to think about as well.

Me, I'm trying for authentic, peascods in the works, arm harness to follow. I wanna look right.