I've posted this question before, but have not received a really good reply. Here goes again: I would like to learn to use blows thrown on the pass, as is shown in period examples. However, whenever I try it it tends to fail miserably. Any suggestions?
------------------
The defining characteristic of fanaticism is the inability to understand why everyone else is not a fanatic.
Footwork, alternate question
-
William MacCrimmon
- New Member
- Posts: 18
- Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2002 2:01 am
- Location: West Orange, NJ, USA
- Contact:
Noe,
Those "on the fly" shots are a pain, aren't they? I've tried doing the same and ran into trouble myself. From what I've learned to date, the main problems fall into three categories:
1- not enough force (light!)
2- not accurate (glancing)
3- um, not coordinated (how did my shield get in the way?)
Unfortunately, problem 3 is either genetic clumsiness or not enough practice, so I'll concentrate on 1 and 2. T
he best way I've found to genearate enough force on the move is to practice against the pell while moving. Since the average SCA blow is generated from the back foot and struch when the front foot lands, it's a natural progression to start a blow while taking a step and landing the blow while finishing the step. Unfortunately, as William stated, it's easier to show than tell.
As for accuracy, that's a bit more difficult. I've had luck using a ball attached to a rope and suspending it at the height you wish to hit as a target. Simply walk past the ball and swing the shot. The reaction of the ball will give you a good idea if you hit cleanly or not. Again, easier shown than told.
For the most part, the period manuals show people fighting w/o armour on. While the blows, for the most part, can be thrown while in harness, the physics change based on what you're armour is. For that reason always practice suited up (ignore the helm if you want). Another good trick is to film yourself attempting the maneuver and study the tape.
I hope someone else has some advice: I need some fresh ideas myself.
Good Luck
Paul
Those "on the fly" shots are a pain, aren't they? I've tried doing the same and ran into trouble myself. From what I've learned to date, the main problems fall into three categories:
1- not enough force (light!)
2- not accurate (glancing)
3- um, not coordinated (how did my shield get in the way?)
Unfortunately, problem 3 is either genetic clumsiness or not enough practice, so I'll concentrate on 1 and 2. T
he best way I've found to genearate enough force on the move is to practice against the pell while moving. Since the average SCA blow is generated from the back foot and struch when the front foot lands, it's a natural progression to start a blow while taking a step and landing the blow while finishing the step. Unfortunately, as William stated, it's easier to show than tell.
As for accuracy, that's a bit more difficult. I've had luck using a ball attached to a rope and suspending it at the height you wish to hit as a target. Simply walk past the ball and swing the shot. The reaction of the ball will give you a good idea if you hit cleanly or not. Again, easier shown than told.
For the most part, the period manuals show people fighting w/o armour on. While the blows, for the most part, can be thrown while in harness, the physics change based on what you're armour is. For that reason always practice suited up (ignore the helm if you want). Another good trick is to film yourself attempting the maneuver and study the tape.
I hope someone else has some advice: I need some fresh ideas myself.
Good Luck
Paul
The trick to throwing on the run is timing -timing the position of your body to throw the shot where you want it to land.
In other words, it's hard to just throw a shot anytime without being in a proper position to throw the shot. It either lands wrong, lands without sufficient force, or just plain misses where you were aiming. It's hard to learn how to time your shots without practice. One way it to practice running past some pells (spelling?)and throwing shots as you go by. It's not the same, but will help you develope some sort of rythm.
The best practice is actuall practice -get a few people at practice to practice it with you. How? It's best with 4-6 people starting about 10 -15' away within a 10-15' bordered area -kinda like a small bridge. Now the goal if for everyone to race past thier opponents, throwing whatever shot they can as they race by, and get to the other side. Turn around and do it again, and again, and again. don't stop and engage anyone, just run past them and throw a shot or two.
We actually turned this into a game. Any clean shot is worth 1 point, the first person to reach the other side gets 1 point, and your team also get 1 point for each opponant who stops running and engages you, or your team mates.
First team to 20 wins.
It sounds corny, but it works.
(^_^)
In other words, it's hard to just throw a shot anytime without being in a proper position to throw the shot. It either lands wrong, lands without sufficient force, or just plain misses where you were aiming. It's hard to learn how to time your shots without practice. One way it to practice running past some pells (spelling?)and throwing shots as you go by. It's not the same, but will help you develope some sort of rythm.
The best practice is actuall practice -get a few people at practice to practice it with you. How? It's best with 4-6 people starting about 10 -15' away within a 10-15' bordered area -kinda like a small bridge. Now the goal if for everyone to race past thier opponents, throwing whatever shot they can as they race by, and get to the other side. Turn around and do it again, and again, and again. don't stop and engage anyone, just run past them and throw a shot or two.
We actually turned this into a game. Any clean shot is worth 1 point, the first person to reach the other side gets 1 point, and your team also get 1 point for each opponant who stops running and engages you, or your team mates.
First team to 20 wins.
It sounds corny, but it works.
(^_^)
-
Aidan Cambel
- Archive Member
- Posts: 3572
- Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2001 2:01 am
- Location: Birmingham, AL , USA
Thanks gusy, but now I'm worried that I didn't use correct terminology. What I mean by "on the pass" is the shot that begins right arm back (for righties), right foot back, and is thrown at the same time you step forward with the right foot. I seem to see this blow in fechtbuks, but it seems to be too slow when I throw it, and too telegraphed. Any suggestions?
------------------
The defining characteristic of fanaticism is the inability to understand why everyone else is not a fanatic.
------------------
The defining characteristic of fanaticism is the inability to understand why everyone else is not a fanatic.
-
Norman
- Archive Member
- Posts: 4313
- Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: East Brunswick, NJ, USA
- Contact:
Noe --
read the advice in "rapier" manuals and look into modern fencing.
Both adress this precisely.
I think Digrassi talks about this.
If the leg moves first you'll be telegraphing and loosing power.
The trick for practice is to move the arm first and then have the hips/legs actualy deliver the shot.
Then slowly bring them into ALMOST simultaneity ...but still have that marginal arm-first-ness.
This may improve your ability to feint as well --
you move the arm while not yet in distance, your opponent reacts to that move,
you move your body into distance - now altering that arm position to take advantage of his early reaction.
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
read the advice in "rapier" manuals and look into modern fencing.
Both adress this precisely.
I think Digrassi talks about this.
If the leg moves first you'll be telegraphing and loosing power.
The trick for practice is to move the arm first and then have the hips/legs actualy deliver the shot.
Then slowly bring them into ALMOST simultaneity ...but still have that marginal arm-first-ness.
This may improve your ability to feint as well --
you move the arm while not yet in distance, your opponent reacts to that move,
you move your body into distance - now altering that arm position to take advantage of his early reaction.
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Noe:
...but it seems to be too slow when I throw it, and too telegraphed. Any suggestions? </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I recommend getting rid of all that metal armour you insist on wearing and going to bare minumum blue plastic. Not only will you be faster with less weight, but you can wack your opponents as they bust into uncontrollable fits of laughter.
Also that ridiculous closed faced helm is limiting your vision. To be really competitive in this sport you need an open face spuntop.
...but it seems to be too slow when I throw it, and too telegraphed. Any suggestions? </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I recommend getting rid of all that metal armour you insist on wearing and going to bare minumum blue plastic. Not only will you be faster with less weight, but you can wack your opponents as they bust into uncontrollable fits of laughter.
Also that ridiculous closed faced helm is limiting your vision. To be really competitive in this sport you need an open face spuntop.
Norman: Sincere thanks for the good advice, although I was wondering: why would modern fencing would be a help, as they -- as far as I have seen -- don't cut and throw blows on the pass?
Rainald: My plans are quite the opposite really. Just wait until you see my new lead breastplate. Also, I'm considering a helm with no openings whatsoever. Then I can just fight with the force.
The depressing thing is that I couldn't do any worse than I am now.
------------------
The defining characteristic of fanaticism is the inability to understand why everyone else is not a fanatic.
Rainald: My plans are quite the opposite really. Just wait until you see my new lead breastplate. Also, I'm considering a helm with no openings whatsoever. Then I can just fight with the force.
The depressing thing is that I couldn't do any worse than I am now.
------------------
The defining characteristic of fanaticism is the inability to understand why everyone else is not a fanatic.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Rainald:
<B> I recommend getting rid of all that metal armour you insist on wearing and going to bare minumum blue plastic. Not only will you be faster with less weight, but you can wack your opponents as they bust into uncontrollable fits of laughter.
Also that ridiculous closed faced helm is limiting your vision. To be really competitive in this sport you need an open face spuntop.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
May I introduce you to Master Tae Kwan Leap?
<B> I recommend getting rid of all that metal armour you insist on wearing and going to bare minumum blue plastic. Not only will you be faster with less weight, but you can wack your opponents as they bust into uncontrollable fits of laughter.
Also that ridiculous closed faced helm is limiting your vision. To be really competitive in this sport you need an open face spuntop.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
May I introduce you to Master Tae Kwan Leap?
Noe,
modern fencing doesn't directly address the blow you're trying to throw, but it does address "same-side" shots and the associated weight transfer. In foil fencing, it's (should you REALLY mess up a retreat) thrusting when the off leg (for a rightie, the left leg) is forward. Basically, you have to overcome the natural tendency to alternate arms and legs. Now, in general, the power level will never be as great as a normal shot (left leg lead) but the power generated is more than enough to get a good thwap in.
Here's an experiment for you. Next time you're walking pay attention to your arms. Odds are the left arm will swing forward with the right leg, and vice-versa. Now, exaggerate this just for fun (ok, so you look silly ). Now, concentrate on NOT doing that. Move the left arm and left leg together. Pretend the shoulder and the hips are attached. That's the basic FEEL for the shot.
Hope that helps a little
Paul
modern fencing doesn't directly address the blow you're trying to throw, but it does address "same-side" shots and the associated weight transfer. In foil fencing, it's (should you REALLY mess up a retreat) thrusting when the off leg (for a rightie, the left leg) is forward. Basically, you have to overcome the natural tendency to alternate arms and legs. Now, in general, the power level will never be as great as a normal shot (left leg lead) but the power generated is more than enough to get a good thwap in.
Here's an experiment for you. Next time you're walking pay attention to your arms. Odds are the left arm will swing forward with the right leg, and vice-versa. Now, exaggerate this just for fun (ok, so you look silly
). Now, concentrate on NOT doing that. Move the left arm and left leg together. Pretend the shoulder and the hips are attached. That's the basic FEEL for the shot.Hope that helps a little
Paul
-
Norman
- Archive Member
- Posts: 4313
- Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: East Brunswick, NJ, USA
- Contact:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Norman: Sincere thanks for the good advice, although I was wondering: why would modern fencing would be a help, as they -- as far as I have seen -- don't cut and throw blows on the pass?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The Theory is the same --
In modern fencing you often cut or thrust in the lunge. The issues are the same as cutting and thrusting on the pass
(there's also the "fleche" - which is sort of a big pass that turns into a run and leap ...I forget Marozzo's term for it)
...the modern is a wee easier because you only concern yourself with the straight line and you leave out the power issues that are distinct to SCA rattan.
There's a discernable line from Marozzo (cut and thrust sword) to DiGrassi (still a cut and thrust sword but he toutes the great superiority of thrusts) to Saber (ie: Hutton "Cold Steel") and "true rapier" manuals, to modern fencing.
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
Norman: Sincere thanks for the good advice, although I was wondering: why would modern fencing would be a help, as they -- as far as I have seen -- don't cut and throw blows on the pass?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The Theory is the same --
In modern fencing you often cut or thrust in the lunge. The issues are the same as cutting and thrusting on the pass
(there's also the "fleche" - which is sort of a big pass that turns into a run and leap ...I forget Marozzo's term for it)
...the modern is a wee easier because you only concern yourself with the straight line and you leave out the power issues that are distinct to SCA rattan.
There's a discernable line from Marozzo (cut and thrust sword) to DiGrassi (still a cut and thrust sword but he toutes the great superiority of thrusts) to Saber (ie: Hutton "Cold Steel") and "true rapier" manuals, to modern fencing.
------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)
-
Lodhur
- Archive Member
- Posts: 856
- Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: al-Barran, Outlands, Scadia
- Contact:
Timing... timing... hmm. I've been struggling with this myself. I can do it a few times, but I invariably pick up speed & end up out of sync.
Practicing to music is something I've been meaning to try. I mean, I _have_ rythymn. I used to wear my armour to clubs or raves & dance 5 hours straight. When I move next month I should get the space to do pell work. I think I'm going to try wearing my walkman while hitting the pell.
I wonder what they'd say if I brought it to fighter practice. I suppose they wouldn't mind Dead Can Dance (zzzzz) or some such, but I don't know if they'd care to be catching whiffs of Tool in the midst of melee. Might detract from the experience for some.
Practicing to music is something I've been meaning to try. I mean, I _have_ rythymn. I used to wear my armour to clubs or raves & dance 5 hours straight. When I move next month I should get the space to do pell work. I think I'm going to try wearing my walkman while hitting the pell.
I wonder what they'd say if I brought it to fighter practice. I suppose they wouldn't mind Dead Can Dance (zzzzz) or some such, but I don't know if they'd care to be catching whiffs of Tool in the midst of melee. Might detract from the experience for some.