Archery and Knightly Combat

Winterfell · Post by **Winterfell** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 4:51 pm

My question is how do people feel about archers in heavy combat. Now I am not talking about the how safe is archery combat, what I am asking is how do people feel about charging across a field against archers? Let me know what you think.

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"As long as there are fanatics there will always be heretics

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 5:04 pm

I shot my totally cool and max-power crossbow during two battles. I am not going to lie, it was so much fun I don't think I can describe it. I laughed my ass off the entire time.
However, an interesting thing kept happening. I noticed that tons of good friends -who just happened to be wearing white belts- kept getting very angry at me when they would see me holding that crossbow. Of course, most of them would chastise me and then say "Shoot THAT GUY!!"
Later that same night I vowed to never shoot at another man-at-arms again. I want to keep my thumbs, thank you. It was unbelievable *hella fun*, but it is not something that I should be doing.
-Vitus

Owen · Post by **Owen** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 5:12 pm

In battles, sure. I'd like an occasional "plate is proof" battle, like we have in Markland.

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Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

SyrRhys · Post by **SyrRhys** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 6:23 pm

You have to ask yourself what kind of fighting we're doing. Crossbows and Bows are prefectly authentic for use by filthy, lower-class soldiers (although not for a gentleman) in time of war, but do we fight wars in the SCA? No, we don't. We fight tournaments, even in our largest melees; the rules structure we use specifically precludes war-type fighting.

Now, personally, I'd love to change our rule system to allow for wars (and if we did so I'd even hire some stout yeomen from their pig farms to shoot in my service), but I sincerely doubt many others would want to play that way.

Bows on the tournament field are an abomination and should be banned. They're nothing but a way for people to defeat their betters. If they want glory, let them pick up a knightly weapon and stand to.

(And, by the way, Vitus, that *is* my polite, positive and gentle response.)

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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 6:35 pm

I try not to shoot anyone more than once.

Shamey · Post by **Shamey** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 6:49 pm

Don't mind them as long as they're on my side and there aren't any on the other side.

I want to know how I'm 'sposed to know I got hit if I can't see or feel the arrow hit? The first time I encountered an archer at a practice I got chastized for blowing off his shots - I didn't realize he had hit me. *shrug*

My Knight's Lady is Tessa the Huntress - she is one happy but deadly archer!

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Leah of Newcastle
Man-at-Arms to Syr Malcolm MacEoghainn

Lienhart Fischer · Post by **Lienhart Fischer** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 7:44 pm

heheh i agree with the try not to shoot anyone more than once, I was fighting in a 15 minute resurection bridge battle and the group was pretty small (10-15) for each side, this new fighter was in the front rank and the single archer on the other side is picking off people left and right, Snap! the new guy takes on in the grill and walks off to be reborn, he comes back and takes his place in line. 10 seconds later WHACK! he takes an arrow off the grill, so off he goes for yet another life, he comes back and is working his way through the second rank to take his place in the front POW! another one in the face, by this time the poor new guy was getting cranky, funny from my vantage point but i can see where it would get anoying fast.
-T

Tim Finkas · Post by **Tim Finkas** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 7:47 pm

Shameless wrote:
<quote>
I want to know how I'm 'sposed to know I got hit if I can't see or feel the arrow hit? The first time I encountered an archer at a practice I got chastized for blowing off his shots - I didn't realize he had hit me. *shrug*

</quote>

That's why I try to shoot my adversary in the face grill. They never have trouble noticing it!

[This message has been edited by Tim Finkas (edited 02-21-2002).]

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 7:56 pm

I'll probably be chastised, but I kind of like getting shot at.I dont think I was ever hit with an arrow,but it was fun blocking them and dodging them....Otto

Connor McEldridge · Post by **Connor McEldridge** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 8:35 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Otto von Teich:
I'll probably be chastised, but I kind of like getting shot at.I dont think I was ever hit with an arrow,but it was fun blocking them and dodging them....Otto<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh really? Well, come fight by me at Gulf Wars and I'm sure you'll have many chances to get shot!

I'm pretty much with Syr Rhys here, we fight tourneys, not wars. Bows are below our station. But, if they are to be allowed, I feel all archers should be heavy. Meaning that they can be hit. Period.

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 8:43 pm

I might add that my experiance with archers usually consisted of 6-10 archers shooting at 50-70 men at arms. If there were 100 archers shooting at 50 men at arms it might not be quite as ammuseing. LOL. I wouldnt like to have them shooting at me in a tournament, but in war its ok.I think I would even expect it.Some might argue our wars are big tournies,but we call them wars, they look like wars,and we have death from behind,which I might add I disapproved of it at first. But many argued that its fair in "war" and I finally decided they were right.So.....methinks combat archery is an aspect of war.It sure is period anyway...Otto PS: vitus you can have a pot shot at me any time you like. hee hee

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 8:45 pm

I might agree with that,archers probably should be armoured, and should expect to get hit.In the days of old,they wore little armour,but still got hit..Otto

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 8:49 pm

And I would be PROUD to stand by your side Connor!.I used to be good with a bow myself,but never got into combat archery, its beneath my station hehee.However its not beneath my station to go after the knaveish rascals...Otto

Aidan Cambel · Post by **Aidan Cambel** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 9:14 pm

Go to Panhandle Skirmishes between Meridies and Trimaris in the late fall.

You'll KNOW what a friggin' crossbow bolt feels like. Those guys down there are viscious!!!

I like the archery in battles. Granted last years Gulf Wars Saturday Fort Battle was borderline rediculously long with the hour of arrow volley. I can see why people in castle sieges would pull off to the side and kick of a Pas!!! I couldn't imagine waiting for days for the archers to get done.

I have never (thank goodness) seen archery in a tournament. I would die quickly in that tourney because I am sure I would stand there like a deer in headlights thinking "what tha ........???!!!!!!!!"

Aidan

Owen · Post by **Owen** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 9:15 pm

SyrRhys, I gotta disagree with you- we fight the Pennsic War, not Police Action, Melee Tournement, or anything else. We may be very stylized in our interpretation, but it's still set up as a war.

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Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

theodrik · Post by **theodrik** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 9:32 pm

For those unfortunates out east whose kingdom don't hold enough wars for you, organsize one! I've organized two war series, the Esfenn-Southern Shores and the Wargy. As for missile weapons in tournaments, I supposed you mean Heavy (hardsuit) tournaments, not rapier or missile tourneys. Melees and heavy tournaments are not the proper venue for such activities, excepting in the target or IKCAC/IKAC compititions. Wars, where the historical purpose was to go into the field, risking all to deprive another of his possessions, land, home and life, well the used everything available. I have gone to wars, had arrows bounce off of my plate (is proof in the West), swatted them out of the air and basicly been like Superman (tm) with regards to them. I also have had been a Called Priority Target (knight, polearm, not much plate, open-face helm) and have-not-been-able-to-get-into-range-all-day-without-getting-shot wars. Yes it is frustraiting to be shot just when YOU could have made that charge stick, or got that guy or whatever. Now my question is have you ever shot? In combat? Do you know how hard it can be to even get a clean hit some times? I do, because I also shoot and throw javelins. A war is a different arena than a war. If you only like your opponates in front of you or dislike missile fire, the don't fight! Lord knows those that do could use another marshal. If you really don't like missiles, host a Pas de Arms. Don't rhino and spoil it for everyone else. And fellow missile folks, sometimes we really don't notice getting, esp. with those golftubes! If you hit them once, do it again. If they don't call it, shoot someone else. Someone else will want to play. King Harold probally didn't like archers either towards the end of the Battle of Hastings and I bet the French at Agincourt had problems too. Did they grouse and toss all missile troops out of the army? Hell no, they hired all the missile troops they could get! Ask the Swiss what they think of crossbows, or the Hungarians for that matter. On flat, hard ground, heavy cav is king. Mess seriously with the footing and missiles rule. It's called tactics and building better scenarios will go far in improving relations I bet.

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Sir Theodrik of Skane,
West, Mists, Blackwood Company
'Lude Fortier, Lude Juste, Nemini Damnum!'

Aelric · Post by **Aelric** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 9:59 pm

At Estrella I wanted to convince one of the opposing Knights to go kill an Archer on his side because he kept targeting Knights. I never got the guts to ask.

It was already a slaughter and the snide archers just made it worse. I think I will get a crossbow just so I can hunt the other sides archers.

I got hit by a crossbow bolt and I had no doubt that I had been hit. It was solid. If its not solid I say "light" and move on. A light shot is a light shot no matter how its delivered.

Archers in combat would be cool if they were used in a period manner. Lined up in rows and run down by mounted knights.

Aelric

"Coward was he who was the first archer, he dared not close with his foe"

Edward deCalais · Post by **Edward deCalais** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 10:40 pm

Hello all this my first post to this board but here it goes. I have always been shot at in wars and so I just got used to it. It may not be glamorus, but guess what-it wasn't back then in period either. Many of the best and bravest Knights died on the field cuz of archers/crossbows. In wars, we should have them, in tourneys. no way. This way everybody can play our game in some way.

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Edward deCalais (known in the West as Padraig of KilKenny

Cyric · Post by **Cyric** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 10:56 pm

Hello All

Now I admit Iâ€™m no expert here, but there is something else to combat archery that hasnâ€™t been mentioned that I would like to bring up.
I know several archers who arch simply because they physically cant take the beating regular fighters take. Be it due to maybe age or physical condition, health problems or any number of reasons that doesnâ€™t allow them to fight, or fight safely as regular fighters. (In fact charging them tends to make a few scream Iâ€™m dead and fall to the ground with much haste), but archery does give them a chance to get on the field. And help there kingdom, or side, or team, or whoever they fight for, that they might otherwise not have. And isnâ€™t that one of the key things of the SCA to give everyone a chance to do what they want.
Just thought I would but that in for something extra to think about to consider

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Where theres a Whip theres a way

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 11:12 pm

Good point cyric, in a few more years I may take up combat archery for that very reason myself......Otto the Old and Somewhat Feeble

Ulrich · Post by **Ulrich** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 11:50 pm

I dont particularly LIKE combat archery, though I've met some nice combat archers. for the most part I defer to Sir Richards remarks on them ( I know he hasnt made them on this thread...but I'm sure he will.)

however if we have to have combat archers, we need to be able to hit them. after all if your gonna shoot at me, and make me run you down, I should at least get the pleasure of whacking you with a stick.
(*small rant follows* NO-NONcombatants on the field other than marshal's!*ok I'm done now*)

Tim Finkas · Post by **Tim Finkas** » Fri Feb 22, 2002 1:59 am

Aelric wrote:

I think I will get a crossbow just so I can hunt the other sides archers.

I can't speak for all archers, but as an SCA combat archer, I hunt the other archers first. When they are taken care of, I move on to the rest.

Ulrich wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
however if we have to have combat archers, we need to be able to hit them. after all if your gonna shoot at me, and make me run you down, I should at least get the pleasure of whacking you with a stick.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you wholeheartedly. Here in Caid, we have only Heavy archers. That means we can be wacked with a stick. As an archer, I dig it---and the stick jocks seem okay with the situation too.

And if I wanted, I could carry a sword as a backup...maybe with a buckler. But the xbow and all the bolts is quite enough to carry---I don't need a friggin sword and shield too!

[This message has been edited by Tim Finkas (edited 02-22-2002).]

MaskedWelshman · Post by **MaskedWelshman** » Fri Feb 22, 2002 6:24 am

In going with my personna, I would love to be able to do combat archery. However, I would want to do it as a heavy/light. When the scrum gets good, I want to doff bow and arrows, pick up the glaive and get dirty.

However, the West frowns on it. Mayhaps with the new attitude towards wars that seems to be coming in, maybe I can get in on this...

Oh Christian.... *wanders off to talk to Company Commander*

cheval · Post by **cheval** » Fri Feb 22, 2002 6:44 am

AAAARRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

cheval · Post by **cheval** » Fri Feb 22, 2002 6:48 am

OK, now that I've gotten that off my chest, here is a copy of a recent post on this topic that I submitted to another list:

I feel CA is "unchivalrous" from the standpoint that the bow was not considered a proper weapon of tournament or war for members of the Second Estate, to which all participants are at least nominally recognized. If a fighter chooses to deny their "birthright" and pick up the bow, then they are not entitled to the "courtesies" due a fellow noble, and should be ridden down as the dogs they are -- or, barring that, simply send in the Irish to clean out the whole lot of them.

One poster suggests that archery was used in period tournaments and, while I have heard the same, I have never run across the primary source. Does anybody here know how this was employed? I somehow doubt it is similar to our current practice.

Another gentle jokingly describes future combat as ""it won't be long till its just combat archers shooting at combat archers", which pretty much sums up developments in Lochac.

When I drafted the scenarios for the Mists/Cynagua war some years ago, I set the archers up in one corner of the battlefield, made their position "inviolate", and only allowed them to shoot what they had (no gleaning). This was intended to more accurately reflect period archery (mass flights, ignored by the knights, with finite ammunition), which had the effect of turning it into more of a "terrain feature" for the heavy weapons fighters (you couldn't "kill" the archers, so you just sucked it up and kept struggling to find a truly worthy opponent). About the only improvement I could think of was to make only face shots effective, but that might have been even too progressive for the West *grin*.

Alfred of Carlyle
Drachenwald

Owen · Post by **Owen** » Fri Feb 22, 2002 7:13 am

Cheval- that sounds kinda cool, I'll have to see about setting one up.

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Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Fri Feb 22, 2002 7:13 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Theodrik:
King Harold probally didn't like archers either towards the end of the Battle of Hastings and I bet the French at Agincourt had problems too. Did they grouse and toss all missile troops out of the army? Hell no, they hired all the missile troops they could get! Ask the Swiss what they think of crossbows, or the Hungarians for that matter. On flat, hard ground, heavy cav is king. Mess seriously with the footing and missiles rule. It's called tactics and building better scenarios will go far in improving relations I bet.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A man after my own heart. And ride them down like dogs? Hmm, by the time you get to them, you suddenly realize they're standing behind a fence of sharpened stakes . . . then when your horse has been impaled, or thrown you, they come out from behind and club you to death . . . my kind of tactics.

Some pictures; http://geocities.com/egfrothos/Hastings2000b.html - unfortunately this was "staged" for the public, but what a buzz!

BTW, in Oz, we have a completely different style of combat archery; and yes, you can hit the archers - much more fun - and for he who gets shot it's just too bad.

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Egfroth

"I can't help it. I was BORN sneering" - Pooh Bah
see my webpage at www.geocities.com/egfrothos

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Feb 22, 2002 8:07 am

I've been on the giving and receiving end. It certainly brings home the reality of the warfare. Markland has always had an emphasis on archery and missile weapons, but then we were always more interested in history and combat as opposed to the social conventions of chivalry and tournaments.

Hey, different ships, different long splices!

Combat archery teaches you that personal skill and valor are not enough in the real world. That chance and distant actions can effect your best-laid plans. It teaches you to pay attention! I loved it when I could turn to a squad of archers, point out a point of resistance on the opponent's fortification or battle line, and say: "Shoot him!"

And yes, most Markland heavy infantry bear the same high opinion of archers as Cheval: "AAAARRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! "

It's a cry frequently haerd across the Marklandic battlefield.

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Full time civil servant, part time blacksmith, and seasonal Viking ship captain.

Visit your National Parks: www.nps.gov

Go viking: www.wam.umd.edu/~eowyn/Longship/

Hit hot iron: www.anvilfire.com

Jasper · Post by **Jasper** » Fri Feb 22, 2002 8:13 am

If I was emperor of the SCA, I would decree the following.
More archers.
No scud golf tube arrows. Thistle missles or the new whatever they are called.
No more huge war shields. You know the one guys where one guy can bearly carry it and has a dagger on a thong or velcro to the back. All he does form a line and brace the shield.
No bo staffs um unpadded polearms.

Archers get you fire together. I want to see flights of 20 + arrows incoming.

No kicking the archers more than twice once they are on the ground.

LOT LOOTING. Need new armour and you and your buds have just kill Sir GoFer Beer. Loot his armour and let him ransom it back.

I have not been to Pennsic just Gulf Wars and Border raids, so if the archers are better eleswhere please move here.

Friend, Romans countrymen send Meridies your archers.

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If Hollywood did the 20th Century like the middle ages;
Pappy Boyington would be fighting the Red Baron, over the trenches of Iran.
Howard Cosell and Snoopy would be the ace reporters in the Gulf war.

pdepamiers · Post by **pdepamiers** » Fri Feb 22, 2002 8:43 am

1) All archers should be heavy, if you want to hit me, I get to hit you.

2) Archers should be forced to fight as a unit. This would help get away from the sniper role that they currently play. Archers were deployed as large blocks because volley fire is more effective. Make them take the field in units of 10 or more.

3) Archers should have to authorize in sword and shield first. In the middle kingdom you can get your CA first. People should understand the basics of heavy combat if they want to be on the field. I remember gutting an archer at Pennsic to have him stare at me. The look in his eyes said "I have never been hit before, what do I do now." I yelled at him "die, die, fall down, die. It was a very enjoyable event.

4) If an archer wants to yield instead of being hit I should be allowed to take off his fingers so he never shoots again (number 4 is mostly sarcasm)

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Phillipe de Pamiers
Midrealm

Conrad the Mad · Post by **Conrad the Mad** » Fri Feb 22, 2002 8:59 am

Standing outside the castle at Pennsic with arrows lobing past me all over the place, and the occasional ballista bolt soaring over my head. ahhh the memories. I think it adds too the battle I really enjoyed it. and hope to get a heavy crossbow this year.

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Member of House Red Winged Lion
Man-at-arms to Robert' De'Tyre

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Fri Feb 22, 2002 9:07 am

I think archery has its place in battles, but not on the tourney field. I also think archers need to be geared up for combat and be prepared to be attacked. As a historical aspect would men of worth fight with a bow or crossbow? Guess that depends on the man. Would lords hire men at arms with bows and crossbows for battles and defense? Yes. I would love to see battles with organized squads of pikes, knights, and bowmen but Iâ€™m not holding my breath there. As far a chivalry goes mounted knights called crossbow men cowards while they road down men at arms with lances while on horseback. Everything is a matter of perspective.

Flonzy

[This message has been edited by flonzy (edited 02-22-2002).]

SyrRhys · Post by **SyrRhys** » Fri Feb 22, 2002 9:27 am

Our "wars" are not tournaments. We have a lot of rules that make the difference. Someone mistakenly pointed out that since Pennsic is called a "war", then it must be so. Nonsense; Pennsic is even less of a war than many other SCA melees: We're not allowed to hit from behind, we're not allowed to do full running charges, we're not allowed to attack more than four on one... the list goes on. Calling it a war doesn't make it so; look at what it *is*, not what it's *called*. Archers have no place in a tournament.

Someone asked about the use of archers in tournaments: Yes, they were used in very old tournaments; that's why subesequent tournaments had laws banning them. But these old tournaments weren't any more tournaments than Pennsic is a war: One, in fact, was called "the little battle of Challon" (sp?) because archers and foot men were used. It wasn't a tournament, that was just the excuse the local lords used for their own private fight.

Oh, and some 12-13th century tournaments were *larger* than Pennsic; someone needs to do a bit more research.

If you can't fight like a knight, get off the field. Go shoot at the targets or whatever, but you have no place in knightly combat.

On the other hand, if anyone has the guts, I'd be happy to set up a war... we'll play with war rules. I have an English persona, and would love that.

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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

cheval · Post by **cheval** » Fri Feb 22, 2002 9:46 am

Rhys: "Our "wars" are not tournaments."

Are you sure this is what you meant to say? Are you really ready to get on my Bad Side *tm* over this one, too *g*???

-cheval-

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Fri Feb 22, 2002 10:10 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ulrich:
[B]however if we have to have combat archers, we need to be able to hit them. after all if your gonna shoot at me, and make me run you down, I should at least get the pleasure of whacking you with a stick.
B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not gonna let you run me down. I'm overweight and don't like to run, but I'll tell you what I will do. I will stand there, switch to my spear or greatsword and run you through or disemhalf you. Fair enough?

When I went to GW 2 years ago, my reaction was, what the hell do you mean I have to yield??? [img]http://www.armourarchive.org/ubb/mad.gif[/img]

That being my first out of kingdom war, it was neat as hell having all the missiles falling out of the sky!!!