Second:WTF!!!
to the whole thing, and I am not talking about the active marshaling.*VIDEO* - Meridian Spring Crown List 2010 - Final Round
-
Seth of Newcastle
- Archive Member
- Posts: 72
- Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 12:13 pm
- Location: Meridies
Asbrand, Bjorn and others,
Guys it is obvious you have problems with things here. Rather than complain about it on a forum that cannot change anything, why not travel to events, armor up and fight. Fight honorable and well, talk to those around you and let's see what happens.
You may feel you have done this but I have been VERY active in this Kingdom for thirteen years and have lived pretty close to you guys for four but do not recall seeing you in armor much, if at all, and never out of your area.
If you're not active fighting in this kingdom, you're doing nothing but what you're accusing these marshals of doing - casting stones while sitting on the sidelines.
You may feel you have been wronged in the past, and you may well have, but holding on to things that happened years ago and then finding isolated incidents to support those hard feelings helps nothing.
I urge you to seek out me and other Knights at events and lets talk about any grievances or misunderstandings. Talk about the way we all think things should be. Lets have a few beers and work toward making things better for all.
Meridies has made mistakes in the past. All Kingdoms have. Some feel, I am one of them, the pendulum had possibly gone too far the other direction. I feel that was for a short time and has been corrected. Of course these are only my opinions and others may disagree.
I sincerely invite you to show up and be part of it. Please seek me out and lets talk. I will bring the beer and cigars.
Seth
Guys it is obvious you have problems with things here. Rather than complain about it on a forum that cannot change anything, why not travel to events, armor up and fight. Fight honorable and well, talk to those around you and let's see what happens.
You may feel you have done this but I have been VERY active in this Kingdom for thirteen years and have lived pretty close to you guys for four but do not recall seeing you in armor much, if at all, and never out of your area.
If you're not active fighting in this kingdom, you're doing nothing but what you're accusing these marshals of doing - casting stones while sitting on the sidelines.
You may feel you have been wronged in the past, and you may well have, but holding on to things that happened years ago and then finding isolated incidents to support those hard feelings helps nothing.
I urge you to seek out me and other Knights at events and lets talk about any grievances or misunderstandings. Talk about the way we all think things should be. Lets have a few beers and work toward making things better for all.
Meridies has made mistakes in the past. All Kingdoms have. Some feel, I am one of them, the pendulum had possibly gone too far the other direction. I feel that was for a short time and has been corrected. Of course these are only my opinions and others may disagree.
I sincerely invite you to show up and be part of it. Please seek me out and lets talk. I will bring the beer and cigars.
Seth
Last edited by Seth of Newcastle on Wed May 05, 2010 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
Hi,
Does commenting on someone else commenting on a shot count as commenting on a shot? Seriously. Because if I comment on the comment, I'm making a comment on the person who commented on the shot, and therefore disagreeing with their comment, and therefore saying the shot was something other than what the third person commented.
I've worked in DC for too long.
-Aaron
Does commenting on someone else commenting on a shot count as commenting on a shot? Seriously. Because if I comment on the comment, I'm making a comment on the person who commented on the shot, and therefore disagreeing with their comment, and therefore saying the shot was something other than what the third person commented.
I've worked in DC for too long.
-Aaron
-
Seth of Newcastle
- Archive Member
- Posts: 72
- Joined: Thu May 12, 2005 12:13 pm
- Location: Meridies
-
Steve S.
- Archive Member
- Posts: 13327
- Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Huntsville, AL
- Contact:
I have reviewed the Meridies Marshal's Handbook, and the Society Marshal's Handbook, and while it is somewhat contradictory on the point, it does appear to allow marshals to provide information to the fighters about blows.
On Page 27 of the Meridies Marshal's Handbook, it quotes the Society Marshal's Handbook as saying:
"Information unavailable to the combatant being struck may be supplied by the opposing combatant or the Marshal, including blade orientation upon impact, apparent force transmitted, or apparent location and angle of the blow’s impact based upon the observer’s angle of observation."
Emphasis mine.
Now one might debate when and whether information about a blow is available or not to the person being hit, but, if the marshals feel the information was unavailable, by Society rules they may supply it.
However, on page 36 it says:
"You are expected to be an impartial witness to exactly what you see happen during a fight and keep your mouth shut about it unless a safety hazard occurs or the fighters ask you."
This would seem to be a rather strongly-worded contradiction with the earlier passage quoted from the Society Marshal's Handbook.
Rules aside, I believe it is a truism that the general feeling about SCA combat has always been, as I have oft heard repeated in Meridies, that fighters are on their own honor to call the blows that they receive. I have heard it said at countless demos, for example, that marshals are only there for safety and do not function as referees.
The reality is that the rules are, apparently, more nuanced than this common understanding. But it is, nonetheless, a common (mis)understanding. My wife, who does not fight at all, was also surprised at the sideline commentary during the tournament.
Now I totally agree with what Sir Seth and others have said here that no Knight of good intent would ever want to win a tournament, leastwise a crown tournament, by not calling a shot. They would far, far rather have someone inform them than win by ill means, which would be far more shameful. I feel the same way.
But my wife's comment about the Knights who were advised about their blows was, "How ashamed they must have felt to be corrected in front of everyone!" Clearly there are going to be people watching the tournament who do not intimately understand what is going on and are taken aback by what appears to be a reversal of the popularly held idea of how blows are to be called in SCA combat.
Sir Seth, I have been informed as to what you are probably talking about and I believe I understand exactly what you are saying, and to whom.
For my part since getting re-authorized a few weeks ago I have attended and fought at Fools' War and Golden Iris. It was our intent to go to Black Axe but my wife was in the hospital. We traveled to Crown List where I intended to fight in the William Marshal tournament but it was rained out, and, having arrived on site at 2am and been awoken by the kids at 5am, I slept through the pick-ups that happened when the rain broke when I was napping with the kids. I will be fighting in the Silver Star Tourney this coming weekend.
I agree with you that those who do more are more worthy, as are their words concerning what we do. As such, my own words also are of small account as of yet.
I will simply point out that I have enjoyed participating in online conversations for decades about many things that I had no possibility of changing or even doing. Such is the modern era of communications.
With the utmost respect,
Steve
On Page 27 of the Meridies Marshal's Handbook, it quotes the Society Marshal's Handbook as saying:
"Information unavailable to the combatant being struck may be supplied by the opposing combatant or the Marshal, including blade orientation upon impact, apparent force transmitted, or apparent location and angle of the blow’s impact based upon the observer’s angle of observation."
Emphasis mine.
Now one might debate when and whether information about a blow is available or not to the person being hit, but, if the marshals feel the information was unavailable, by Society rules they may supply it.
However, on page 36 it says:
"You are expected to be an impartial witness to exactly what you see happen during a fight and keep your mouth shut about it unless a safety hazard occurs or the fighters ask you."
This would seem to be a rather strongly-worded contradiction with the earlier passage quoted from the Society Marshal's Handbook.
Rules aside, I believe it is a truism that the general feeling about SCA combat has always been, as I have oft heard repeated in Meridies, that fighters are on their own honor to call the blows that they receive. I have heard it said at countless demos, for example, that marshals are only there for safety and do not function as referees.
The reality is that the rules are, apparently, more nuanced than this common understanding. But it is, nonetheless, a common (mis)understanding. My wife, who does not fight at all, was also surprised at the sideline commentary during the tournament.
Now I totally agree with what Sir Seth and others have said here that no Knight of good intent would ever want to win a tournament, leastwise a crown tournament, by not calling a shot. They would far, far rather have someone inform them than win by ill means, which would be far more shameful. I feel the same way.
But my wife's comment about the Knights who were advised about their blows was, "How ashamed they must have felt to be corrected in front of everyone!" Clearly there are going to be people watching the tournament who do not intimately understand what is going on and are taken aback by what appears to be a reversal of the popularly held idea of how blows are to be called in SCA combat.
Rather than complain about it on a forum that cannot change anything, why not travel to events, armor up and fight. Fight honorable and well, talk to those around you and let's see what happens.
Sir Seth, I have been informed as to what you are probably talking about and I believe I understand exactly what you are saying, and to whom.
For my part since getting re-authorized a few weeks ago I have attended and fought at Fools' War and Golden Iris. It was our intent to go to Black Axe but my wife was in the hospital. We traveled to Crown List where I intended to fight in the William Marshal tournament but it was rained out, and, having arrived on site at 2am and been awoken by the kids at 5am, I slept through the pick-ups that happened when the rain broke when I was napping with the kids. I will be fighting in the Silver Star Tourney this coming weekend.
I agree with you that those who do more are more worthy, as are their words concerning what we do. As such, my own words also are of small account as of yet.
I will simply point out that I have enjoyed participating in online conversations for decades about many things that I had no possibility of changing or even doing. Such is the modern era of communications.
With the utmost respect,
Steve
Steve -SoFC- wrote:<snip>But my wife's comment about the Knights who were advised about their blows was, "How ashamed they must have felt to be corrected in front of everyone!" Clearly there are going to be people watching the tournament who do not intimately understand what is going on and are taken aback by what appears to be a reversal of the popularly held idea of how blows are to be called in SCA combat.<snip>
Steve
I can only speak for myself, but I assure you I felt no shame; only gratitude that my brother (risking the wrath of the internet
) cared enought for my reputation to help me guard that which is most precious to me.
Caspar
-
Dietrich von Stroheim
- Archive Member
- Posts: 1143
- Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 1:52 pm
- Location: Western Atlantia
Seth of Newcastle wrote:Meridies has made mistakes in the past. All Kingdoms have. Some feel, I am one of them, the pendulum had possibly gone too far the other direction. I feel that was for a short time and has been corrected. Of course these are only my opinions and others may disagree.
Seth
I'm inclined to agree; the pendulum does seem to be swinging back towards the middle. At the past several Meridian events I attended, I had an awesome time! No problems, clean courteous fights, people coming up to me afterwards and thanking me for such a fun tourney match, or 'Show me that move again, in slo-mo!', which I am always happy to oblige
.
I've also noticed the calibration improving. I normally dial WAAAY down on my swings when I fight in Meridies, due to some past issues, but last month at Dreamstone I had a couple Meridian knights tell me it was fine to hit them harder next time!
Active Marshalling in the form of 'Hey that was good, you're dead get off the field!' appears to be, or at least have become, a bogeyman. Yes Marshalls will provide information unknown to the combatants such as apparent blade orientation and landing, but that is a good thing (if my blow landed flat, I didn't win the fight yet! I would certainly hope the marshall would have the consideration to tell us that)
Hopefully these positive trends will continue.
Sir Dietrich von Stroheim
The Dietrich Instructional Video Series: http://www.youtube.com/user/DietrichvonStroheim
The Dietrich Instructional Video Series: http://www.youtube.com/user/DietrichvonStroheim
-
Steve S.
- Archive Member
- Posts: 13327
- Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Huntsville, AL
- Contact:
I can only speak for myself, but I assure you I felt no shame; only gratitude that my brother (risking the wrath of the internet Very Happy ) cared enought for my reputation to help me guard that which is most precious to me.
I believe you completely and entirely, Sir Caspar. As Sir Seth said earlier, any fighter would rather have their toenails pulled out than win a tournament and have it revealed later that it was won unfairly. No honest man should want to keep something ill gotten.
I'm just pointing out how others outside the action may, and have, perceived it.
With utmost respect,
Steve
Seth of Newcastle wrote:Asbrand, Bjorn and others,
You may feel you have done this but I have been VERY active in this Kingdom for thirteen years and have lived pretty close to you guys for four but do not recall seeing you in armor much, if at all, and never out of your area.
Just as an FYI from my part... The last "out of my area" place I fought was Gulf Wars (last year). I've not been active since due to a combination of mundane work schedule, and back injury.
Trust me...I'd love to have been out there lately.
That is why I marshal as much as I can when I am unable to fight. To help "keep in the loop" as it were.
Not making any excuses...just how it is.
-
Steve S.
- Archive Member
- Posts: 13327
- Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Huntsville, AL
- Contact:
Last night I had an earnest and frank discussion with my friends from my local group including Sir Ulrich. They provided me with insights that had not occurred to me before.
Firstly, I am a man-at-arms to a Knight. A martial question of a student of arms should best be asked of his teacher, or else what is a teacher for? Now in defense of my folly I will say that though I pledged to serve my knight as a man-at-arms a few years ago, I am only just over a month in actual arms as an actual man-at-arms. Yet I have been in the habit of asking idle questions on the internet for decades. Old habits die hard. It did not even occur to me to engage my Knight in this discussion (until it had ballooned into a problem). And so Sir Ulrich has brought to my attention perhaps my first serious mistake as a man in service to a Knight. I am grateful for that.
Secondly, the honor and integrity of Meridies is a thing carefully guarded by those who are charged with its keeping. These sorts of issues are considered "family business", and the airing of these issues outside of Meridies is...unsettling...at best, especially when the motives of some doing the airing are unknown or suspect.
For my part, I will never discuss kingdom policy on a global forum again. It is poor form, but mostly, it serves no good purpose.
Thirdly, another point was made that I was basically contradicting the opinion of several Knights concerning the situation. Now, the modern-age internet voice of me says, "So what? Anyone can have an opinion and express it." But, as Sir Ulrich had me see, the martial artist voice of me says, "Who are you to question the masters of your martial art?" Now, it is important to note that this question is not asked in a condescending or superior tone. This is an issue of respect between student in master in the study of a martial art.
So how to reconcile these voices? To speak what you believe or be silent out of respect? This is something that kept me awake until the early morning. And it was then that I considered the words and writings of another Knight I highly respect, Sir Vitus. And like many difficult problems that are solved, the solution, when found, was simple. I hope he will approve:
The field of the tournament in question was the King's field. He presided over it in His own person, and watched over it with His own eyes. By His own will He called forth his best men, His Knights, onto His field.
Now surely, if His Knights had acted contrary to His will, would He not have made it known? This was the King's tournament, in the Tournament of Tournaments. To question the actions of His marshals under His own eyes is to question the will of the King himself.
This is not acceptable for any man who would call himself the King's man.
This is the essence and spirit of what we do. And so it is clear which voice to listen to. There are, of course, mundane issues, like rules, outside the spirit of what we do. But I have no doubt that the hearts of all of the men involved are in the trim, and unless I miss my mark, the rules will be shortly also.
Steve
Firstly, I am a man-at-arms to a Knight. A martial question of a student of arms should best be asked of his teacher, or else what is a teacher for? Now in defense of my folly I will say that though I pledged to serve my knight as a man-at-arms a few years ago, I am only just over a month in actual arms as an actual man-at-arms. Yet I have been in the habit of asking idle questions on the internet for decades. Old habits die hard. It did not even occur to me to engage my Knight in this discussion (until it had ballooned into a problem). And so Sir Ulrich has brought to my attention perhaps my first serious mistake as a man in service to a Knight. I am grateful for that.
Secondly, the honor and integrity of Meridies is a thing carefully guarded by those who are charged with its keeping. These sorts of issues are considered "family business", and the airing of these issues outside of Meridies is...unsettling...at best, especially when the motives of some doing the airing are unknown or suspect.
For my part, I will never discuss kingdom policy on a global forum again. It is poor form, but mostly, it serves no good purpose.
Thirdly, another point was made that I was basically contradicting the opinion of several Knights concerning the situation. Now, the modern-age internet voice of me says, "So what? Anyone can have an opinion and express it." But, as Sir Ulrich had me see, the martial artist voice of me says, "Who are you to question the masters of your martial art?" Now, it is important to note that this question is not asked in a condescending or superior tone. This is an issue of respect between student in master in the study of a martial art.
So how to reconcile these voices? To speak what you believe or be silent out of respect? This is something that kept me awake until the early morning. And it was then that I considered the words and writings of another Knight I highly respect, Sir Vitus. And like many difficult problems that are solved, the solution, when found, was simple. I hope he will approve:
The field of the tournament in question was the King's field. He presided over it in His own person, and watched over it with His own eyes. By His own will He called forth his best men, His Knights, onto His field.
Now surely, if His Knights had acted contrary to His will, would He not have made it known? This was the King's tournament, in the Tournament of Tournaments. To question the actions of His marshals under His own eyes is to question the will of the King himself.
This is not acceptable for any man who would call himself the King's man.
This is the essence and spirit of what we do. And so it is clear which voice to listen to. There are, of course, mundane issues, like rules, outside the spirit of what we do. But I have no doubt that the hearts of all of the men involved are in the trim, and unless I miss my mark, the rules will be shortly also.
Steve
-
Mikhail_Voronov
- Archive Member
- Posts: 969
- Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2008 2:19 pm
Outstanding points all of these. (of the post immediately previous) I am not in the least surprised that Sir Ulrich was involved in the discussion. (Thats a good thing by the way, not sure if it came out right.)
For myself one of my mantras is "Question Everything". That being said there's an appropriate time, place, and way to question any given thing.
Also for myself the rightness of this issue ended for me without having seen the video and without being present at crown. (I have seen the video, several times now in fact. Impressive fight) I read through the first few posts to understand the issue, then when I did that I noticed the four people who were involved. Thats when the question ended for me.
I know the two marshalls as men who have trained me, and the two fighters by reputation. Which is how I knew immediately that what was suspected of happening did not happen.
Now I'm not saying that brilliant men can't be briliantly wrong. Of course they can. I am saying that standing on that field if Duke Sir Ailgheanan spoke as a knight and witness, Duke Sir Seth (notice that he's also KEM of Meridies) agreed with the statement, Count Sir Caspar not only agreed but changed his position without dispute, and Duke Sir Max accepted his change. Then I know better than to bother questioning what happened.
Again not saying its not possible for these men to be wrong. Just saying that I know them and their reputations enough to know that in that time and place they would not act if they were not acting correctly and speaking truth.
Which of course makes me pround of my shire (Rising Stone) and Meridies that we have such men leading us. These men make me proud to be able to say Corona Vult and I thank them for inspiring us.
For myself one of my mantras is "Question Everything". That being said there's an appropriate time, place, and way to question any given thing.
Also for myself the rightness of this issue ended for me without having seen the video and without being present at crown. (I have seen the video, several times now in fact. Impressive fight) I read through the first few posts to understand the issue, then when I did that I noticed the four people who were involved. Thats when the question ended for me.
I know the two marshalls as men who have trained me, and the two fighters by reputation. Which is how I knew immediately that what was suspected of happening did not happen.
Now I'm not saying that brilliant men can't be briliantly wrong. Of course they can. I am saying that standing on that field if Duke Sir Ailgheanan spoke as a knight and witness, Duke Sir Seth (notice that he's also KEM of Meridies) agreed with the statement, Count Sir Caspar not only agreed but changed his position without dispute, and Duke Sir Max accepted his change. Then I know better than to bother questioning what happened.
Again not saying its not possible for these men to be wrong. Just saying that I know them and their reputations enough to know that in that time and place they would not act if they were not acting correctly and speaking truth.
Which of course makes me pround of my shire (Rising Stone) and Meridies that we have such men leading us. These men make me proud to be able to say Corona Vult and I thank them for inspiring us.
Well said, Seth.
Asbrand: If you really felt that something had been done wrong, why didn't you talk to Ailleghnan and the two finalists in person after the fighting was over?
I've noticed that you are not nearly so quick to question others (or defend others who you've vocally supported on the AA) at events as you are from the safety of your computer. This is unbecoming. I am more than happy to have a civil discussion about this in person the next time we are both at an event.
Asbrand: If you really felt that something had been done wrong, why didn't you talk to Ailleghnan and the two finalists in person after the fighting was over?
I've noticed that you are not nearly so quick to question others (or defend others who you've vocally supported on the AA) at events as you are from the safety of your computer. This is unbecoming. I am more than happy to have a civil discussion about this in person the next time we are both at an event.
-
Nissan Maxima
- Thor's Taint
- Posts: 8170
- Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2004 2:37 pm
- Location: Ancestral Manor
- Contact:
What I notice in that video is that Max flys around like a damn hornet. I also now suspect strongly that I wasn't getting his "A" game when I fought him at Gulf wars.
I am the SCA's middle finger.
www.clovenshield.org
www.clovenshield.org
Halfdan wrote:I've noticed that you are not nearly so quick to question others (or defend others who you've vocally supported on the AA) at events as you are from the safety of your computer. This is unbecoming. I am more than happy to have a civil discussion about this in person the next time we are both at an event.
LOL -now that's just funny.
Obviously you don't really know me. I've asked these same questions in person before, at events. Even had one of our Dukes try to shout me down in the middle of a curia once (on another fighting related subject). I didn't back down then either.
I didn't speak to Ailleghnan about it at the event because I really didn't notice it when I was filming it (paying more attention to filming it than what was actually happening), and noticed it really when I was getting ready to upload the video to YouTube.
But, hey...thanks for the insinuation anyways.
-
Dietrich von Stroheim
- Archive Member
- Posts: 1143
- Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 1:52 pm
- Location: Western Atlantia
Nissan Maxima wrote:What I notice in that video is that Max flys around like a damn hornet. I also now suspect strongly that I wasn't getting his "A" game when I fought him at Gulf wars.
Agreed. He also *bends* in ways that no human has a right to. One time I had him legged and threw an offside body shot, aimed right above his belt, and he dodged UNDER the shot by leaning sideways and practically putting his ear on the ground. Was like, "Don't you have a skeleton??"
Steve, for what it's worth I don't think you did or said anything unacceptable. Yes, you posed some doubt and questions, but it's not like you advocated the
'Fire up the grill, let's have our semiannual AA Meridies roast!"
that this thread seemed to have been intended as (that probably wasn't the intent, just what it seemed to be aimed at). Didn't look to me like you did any dishonor to your knight or kingdom just by asking questions and expressing your thoughts.
Sir Dietrich von Stroheim
The Dietrich Instructional Video Series: http://www.youtube.com/user/DietrichvonStroheim
The Dietrich Instructional Video Series: http://www.youtube.com/user/DietrichvonStroheim
-
Thorstenn
- Archive Member
- Posts: 2131
- Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 2:01 am
- Location: Barony of Oldenfeld, Trimaris.
Your not evil your Grace, your just misunderstood 
Thor.
Thor.
Cuan wrote:Just got a chance to watch and listen to this video. I neither saw nor heard anything out of the ordinary in those bouts. I have made similar calls when running Crown tourney here in Atlantia. Great sportsmanship by all involved imo.
And you can take that from one of the evillest Atlantians.
Duke Thorstenn the WrongHand
Trimaris.
"A fully equipped duke costs as much to keep up as two Dreadnoughts, and dukes are just as great a terror -- and they last longer."
David Lloyd George
"Amat victoria curam."
Trimaris.
"A fully equipped duke costs as much to keep up as two Dreadnoughts, and dukes are just as great a terror -- and they last longer."
David Lloyd George
"Amat victoria curam."
Dietrich von Stroheim wrote:Agreed. He also *bends* in ways that no human has a right to. One time I had him legged and threw an offside body shot, aimed right above his belt, and he dodged UNDER the shot by leaning sideways and practically putting his ear on the ground. Was like, "Don't you have a skeleton??"
I am been fond of saying that Max is an unholy combination of rubber and lightning - just so danged flexible and FAST!
-
Thorstenn
- Archive Member
- Posts: 2131
- Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 2:01 am
- Location: Barony of Oldenfeld, Trimaris.
I was thinking Mansquirrelmonkey.... Max might be a creation of Al Gore!!!
Thor.
Thor.
Woeg wrote:Dietrich von Stroheim wrote:Agreed. He also *bends* in ways that no human has a right to. One time I had him legged and threw an offside body shot, aimed right above his belt, and he dodged UNDER the shot by leaning sideways and practically putting his ear on the ground. Was like, "Don't you have a skeleton??"
I am been fond of saying that Max is an unholy combination of rubber and lightning - just so danged flexible and FAST!
Duke Thorstenn the WrongHand
Trimaris.
"A fully equipped duke costs as much to keep up as two Dreadnoughts, and dukes are just as great a terror -- and they last longer."
David Lloyd George
"Amat victoria curam."
Trimaris.
"A fully equipped duke costs as much to keep up as two Dreadnoughts, and dukes are just as great a terror -- and they last longer."
David Lloyd George
"Amat victoria curam."
