Vegetable oil quench w. 4130 *video added*

[Louis de Leon]

Crazy good.

I did some testing first. Fired a small piece of metal in my raising torch to orange, then dipped it in a cup of oil. It did flash, but only a little bit. Hardened just fine - no different than water.

So I decided to scale things up.

Went to the local GFS and bought $50 worth of vegetable oil. Filled a turkey deep fryer bucket with it. Got the kiln up to orange and fired my new knee cops.

They came out springy and wonderful. And hardly any mill scale! Even though I fired them twice. I boned up the first run and didn't get them even orange and refired them. They came out fine. Clean and perfectly set.

NO warping at all.

Only thing that is a little dangerous is having orange hot metal going into a flammable liquid. BE EXTRA CAREFUL. It can and does flash a bit. Have a fire extinguisher at the ready if you ever try this.

That being said - if you're extra careful - it's totally worth it. These will be a snap to clean up. And oil quench is *very* forgiving.

And it makes your shop smell like french fries.

[Gryffinclaw]

Very nice. I am interested in seeing more on your experiment. Will you now polish them?

[Aaron]

The armour will smell like tasy, deep fried food. When I made a pair of arms and "case hardened" them with salad oil, they smelled like very good deep fried food for months. I lost all the time in fights, but my opponent walked away with a bad case of the munchies.

I used the shredded documents from my National Guard unit to start the fire and then lots of wood on it. I'd built an outdoor BBQ grill out of stone and brick.

When I was done with that round of case hardening, I was wondering about the fire and how to put it out. And I remembered no-oxygen equals no-fire. So I used a shovel and shoveled the fire right into the drum of salad oil. The fire went out instantly.

I left the armour parts right in the drum of oil for several days until I could harden the pieces again. It was a great no-water environment for them.

The carbon from the wood/paper fire mixed with the oil and made for a better quench each time IMO. These arms were 18 ga mild to start but once they were case hardened they were undentable and ~20 ga.

That was a good time. Thank you for letting me relive that.

[Gaston de Clermont]

Louis- Are you going to temper them? I've been tempering in my kitchen oven, which is part of why I've been quenching in water. I'd like to not poison my family with motor oil or transmission fluid where we cook. But with cooking oil, that isn't a problem. Let us know how the clean up goes!

[Thomas Powers]

NO FIRE EXTINGUISHER! Tends to splash the burning oil everywhere! Instead you need a simple lid to place over the oil container and let it smother out *very* *fast*.

Quenching blades I use a cylindrical tank made from a gas bottle and use a coffee can as the lid.. Of course I have tongs to place it on. As I do blades, my quench tanks are tall and skinny and I build a wooden frame to hold them and make them hard to accidently knock over---I had a friend burn down his shop from a botched quench in oil; ruined several powerhammers and a LOT of hard to acquire equipment!---so I tend toward the being safe side of things...

"Adding Carbon" to some that is full of carbon anyway? Doesn't work that way.

However oil gives a better quench when warm than when cold; 140 degF is often suggested. Warm oil has a lower viscosity than cold oil and so its convection works better to transport heat away from the piece.

Note that when you warm oil it expands---leave enough room in you container for this!

Rather than buying oil you can often get it free by asking the fast food joints for used oil.

By using "food grade" oils you can have an easier time convinceing your SO that the oven in the kitchen can be used for tempering after hardening. (Though when my wife got a new stove she banished her old one to my shop...)

Thomas

[Louis de Leon]

Very nice. I am interested in seeing more on your experiment. Will you now polish them?

Yup - soon as I fit the lames and heat treat them I'll be polishing them up to mirror then taking them back to satin, Eric Dube style. I'll post pics.

Louis- Are you going to temper them? I've been tempering in my kitchen oven, which is part of why I've been quenching in water. I'd like to not poison my family with motor oil or transmission fluid where we cook. But with cooking oil, that isn't a problem. Let us know how the clean up goes!

Yeah, next step is a 500F/30 min oven temper. They probably don't need it, they're pretty springy right now...but that's the recipe and I'm going to stick to it.

I'll let you know how it goes.

NO FIRE EXTINGUISHER! Tends to splash the burning oil everywhere! Instead you need a simple lid to place over the oil container and let it smother out *very* *fast*.

Oh yeah, I had a lid too. I was more worried about something slopping over and starting a fire outside the quench tank. And my extinguisher is ABC, so it's rated for a grease fire.

My kiln terrifies me. I know how dangerous it is and how quickly things could go from ok to catastrophe. I probably am about 100 times safer with the thing than I need to be. Paranoid is the word, I think. ABC extinguisher, garden hose at the ready, UV rated safety goggles, leather gauntlets, tip bucket of water ready, garage opened all the way up to expel CO2, running fan to help with the same, etc.

[Rasper77]

Is there such a thing as too safe when it comes to Fireballs near your tools?

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Very nice. I am interested in seeing more on your experiment. Will you now polish them?

Yup - soon as I fit the lames and heat treat them I'll be polishing them up to mirror then taking them back to satin, Eric Dube style. I'll post pics.

Will you be rolling the edges then cutting them off too?

Why mirror then satin? I don't believe I've ever heard that bit...

[Louis de Leon]

Will you be rolling the edges then cutting them off too?

But of course - I'm a stickler for historical accuracy. No job too small for the Blankenforge!

Why mirror then satin? I don't believe I've ever heard that bit...

I'm guessing because the mirror makes the surface nice and even to take the satin finish.

Honestly I just do it because Eric Dube does. You'd really have to ask him.

[Louis de Leon]

Terrifying kiln pic. Note the digital thermocouple - it's reading 1812F. Was still climbing too.

It puts your heart in your throat being near this thing when it's running. Seriously. It scares the crap out of me. It's a huge relief when I turn this thing off.

[Thomas Powers]

At the last SWABA conference the demonstrator was running above 2300 degF in his propane forge---doing forge welding demos and had the thermocouple hooked up to show the "propane forges don't get hot enough crowd that they *CAN*!)


IR off of surface area and especially curved surface area can be massive!

Thomas

[Louis de Leon]

That's what the UV goggles are for! I don't want to melt my face off looking up the tailpipe of this thing. Seriously - it's like looking up the ass end of an F-14. It scares the living crap out of me.

On a side note, I'm considering learning how to do lost wax brass casting and using this beast to melt my brass. It's unreal how hot this thing gets. I got it up to 1800-1900F and it only took about a minute. And that's with the gas flow regulators turned to 10. They go to 30.

[Gaston de Clermont]

Louis, where did you get the meter? It's pretty slick. Healthy respect for the damage your forge can do is a good thing. You've taken smart precautions. But play with it. True fear of such a tool can be as dangerous as lack of fear.

[Thomas Powers]

Note UV goggles don't always protect against IR and it's IR you get from forges and kilns, (see Glassblowers' cataracts).

UV is more of an Arc Welding issue.

Thomas

[Louis de Leon]

Louis, where did you get the meter? It's pretty slick. Healthy respect for the damage your forge can do is a good thing. You've taken smart precautions. But play with it. True fear of such a tool can be as dangerous as lack of fear.

Meter I bought online somewhere...been too long so I don't recall exactly where I got it. It was an online kiln supplies shop of some kind.

And yeah, I do need to spend more time with the kiln. I'm not exactly terrified or whatever when I run the thing. It's more like I'm very very very aware of the consequences of a misstep. It's like being in the room with a live cobra. You're probably going to be ok if you don't do anything rash and just conclude your business and leave. But you have to be 100% careful. Step on its tail and *wham*.

Fortunately I am going to get in some more kiln time here sometime soon. I'm going to finish these legs, I'd like to make me a corrazina, new elbows to match the legs, and I've got two new guys who would probably benefit from some lighter gear.

Note UV goggles don't always protect against IR and it's IR you get from forges and kilns, (see Glassblowers' cataracts).

UV is more of an Arc Welding issue.

Many thanks for the tip - I'll search out some IR goggles at once.

[Oaken Rose]

Note UV goggles don't always protect against IR and it's IR you get from forges and kilns, (see Glassblowers' cataracts).

UV is more of an Arc Welding issue.

Thomas

I suspect you're right, but...

From the pic of that kiln, it glowed purple. I'm no expert, but I'm guessing that's a camera trick as I'm pretty sure it would have to be a lot hotter than 1812F to glow that color. But then, farenheit to celsius conversion is not my strength.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Blackbody-lg.png

If it glows red, the blackbody radiation is peaking in red or near infra-red and you've got a ton of IR radiation coming at you. You can feel it I'm sure. But then, if it glows any color you've got a ton of IR coming at you.

If it's blue-white, or actually purple, then you're peaking in the UV spectrum and do indeed have to worry about ultraviolet radiation.

That is, if the color is mainly the result of blackbody radiation (heat), not just some specific chemical reaction.

[Louis de Leon]

From the pic of that kiln, it glowed purple. I'm no expert, but I'm guessing that's a camera trick as I'm pretty sure it would have to be a lot hotter than 1812F to glow that color. But then, farenheit to celsius conversion is not my strength.

It has a a C/F button on it - it'll read either. I'm more comfortable with F. 1812 F is the same thing as 989 C, so says the Google.

Yeah I think the odd colors are a camera artifact. Live and in person it glows a mighty orange tending towards yellow.

And I'm going to buy some 2&3 IR/UV glasses and see which seems best.

http://www.safetyglassesusa.com/ir-shade2.html
http://www.safetyglassesusa.com/ir-shade3.html

[Baron Alcyoneus]

You've got a digital thermocouple, but your kiln is manual for the fuel, correct?

[Louis de Leon]

You've got a digital thermocouple, but your kiln is manual for the fuel, correct?

That's right. There is no automatic control. Just tweak the dials until you make things nice and orange. The thermocouple is there to verify the tweaking is as hot as it looks.

[Thomas Powers]

I had a friend who was an ophthalmologist and ophthalmological surgeon. When he learned I did blacksmithing we had a LONG talk on possible eye issues. Forges are IR.

Thomas

[Gaston de Clermont]

When I'm using my forge I wear didymium glasses like glass blowers use. They filter out the worst of the IR, some of the other spectra, and have side shields to protect me some from sparks and forge scale.

[Raeven]

How do polarized sunglasses work to filter out IR? When O/A Torch cutting, I would wear my polarised glasses and never get eye strain or irritation from cutting.

[horsefriend]

round here fast food places SELL their used oil for bio diesel. They get at least a dollar a gallon, some of the "homebrewers" will pay $2 a gallon.


a/s

[Baron Conal]

any chance of getting video?

[Thomas Powers]

Note that sunglasses, again, tend to be UV filters.

Thomas

[Louis de Leon]

any chance of getting video?

It would take some tinkering but I think I could manage it.

[Louis de Leon]

any chance of getting video?

It would take some tinkering but I think I could manage it.

Done! Took some tinkering as I suspected it would, but I've managed it. Video is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OmX5VR7b_a8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEoXa9iRUpU

I had to anneal and requench these. I bent one earlier. Took it out of the oil bath and it wasn't set up. Bent it during a test. Then requenched it and set the error in permanently. And I had to trim some excess off that was interfering with articulation. So, fixed that tonight - they're done.

Well almost done. Another 15 minutes or so to go tempering in my oven. 500F for 30 min.

[allar]

that was cooool!!!!

Sorry It was Hot!!!

[Lachlan]

Good Day,

As a long term blacksmith I can add that when playing with propane forges you should consider using Didumium Glasses to protect your eyes from both the IR and UV radiation. As an added bonus they kill the white glare in the forge and let you look through to see the true coloration of the steel that you are working.
I get mine at Centaur Forge, and have put the link below:
http://www.centaurforge.com/Didumium-Curved-Lens-Glasses-48-mm/productinfo/3517/

Sincerely
Lachlan

[Louis de Leon]

Didymium doesn't seem like the best choice. I did a little web shopping and found this site:

http://www.sundanceglass.com/didymiumsr.htm

From that page:

Enhanced Didymium
More of the Didymium (we carry 202ACE) standard glass workers glasses, blocks bright yellow flare, but not much UV and no IR. You may not require UV and IR protection. Most soft glass beadmakers use this filtering lens.

So instead I bought these:
http://www.safetyglassesusa.com/ir-shade2.html
http://www.safetyglassesusa.com/ir-shade3.html

That site says this:

Shade 3.0 - Protects against harmful UV and IR radiation in welding, brazing, cutting, and soldering environments; 3.0 provides medium protection.

Basically it's a little less than half the protection you need for arc welding. See this chart for details:

http://www.chem.purdue.edu/chemsafety/t ... shades.htm

I've tried the 2 and the 3, and you can see into the kiln just fine with the 3. You get a decent idea of the color of the piece without any discomfort.

[Gaston de Clermont]

There's info that contradicts Sundance Glass's assertion that didymium doesn't block UV. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didymium
Regular glass blocks the hot portion of the IR range fairly well, which is why green houses work. Of course there probably is something better than what I'm using, and the prices you found for the new shades are stellar- I just don't buy the statement that didymium doesn't block any UV and IR.

[Louis de Leon]

Well, I only had an hour or so of research so it's likely that I've got it wrong. In any event though I know the 3's are going to cover me so that's what I'll be using. And they really are comfy. You can look right into the kiln and it's not a problem judging colors or anything like that. You really go more by the intensity of the light from the piece rather than the hue, even though some of that still makes it through.

And oh yeah, cleanup is going nicely. Here's a pic.

[Gaston de Clermont]

They look good Louis! What are you using to clean them up? In the picture there's kind of a black undertone about the steel. Not like they're blackened, but like they're not reflecting a lot of light. Do they have that in real life?

[Jiri Klepac]

Hi Guys,

sorry for the little OT, but I was really interested by the debate about the glasses. I am trying to sort the similar problem, finding right protection for using the torch for heating. After the list mentioned here: http://www.chem.purdue.edu/chemsafety/t ... shades.htm
seems like shade 3 should be fine. Any recommendations, please?

Louis, good thread. Respect to you. I have all my treating done by the specialized shop, which usually takes a lot of time so I was thinking about building similar monster myself, but I am not that brave...

all the best and good luck with the project

Jiri

[Louis de Leon]

What are you using to clean them up? In the picture there's kind of a black undertone about the steel. Not like they're blackened, but like they're not reflecting a lot of light. Do they have that in real life?

They're very silver/mirror in person. They're reflecting the ugly walls of my garage - that's where we're getting the dark tones. I should have taken them outside to photograph.

At Giles de Bois Guilbert's suggestion I used 80 grit polishing compound and a loose cloth wheel. I'm experimenting with other methods though, like a 240 grit angle grinder flap disc, soft wire wheels, etc. Once the piece is hardened you can really blast on it and not change it much. That's what I learned this run. Get the deep scratches out FIRST before you put them into the kiln.

I didn't do that this time because my previous heat treating efforts would change the surface of the piece. It would make these little bumpy plateaus all over it that had to be ground off. As it turns out they are an artifact of a water quench. They are nonexistent in the vegetable oil quench. The piece comes out of the quench *exactly* like it went in. No warping, no surface artifacts, no real scale to speak of - nothing. So next time I'll have them polished up to mirror before they go in. Less work.

sorry for the little OT, but I was really interested by the debate about the glasses. I am trying to sort the similar problem, finding right protection for using the torch for heating. After the list mentioned here: http://www.chem.purdue.edu/chemsafety/t ... shades.htm
seems like shade 3 should be fine. Any recommendations, please?

Shade 3 work for my kiln pretty well, but I would wait for other more experienced people to speak up. I'm new at all of this, so my advice is not the best.

Louis, good thread. Respect to you. I have all my treating done by the specialized shop, which usually takes a lot of time so I was thinking about building similar monster myself, but I am not that brave...

all the best and good luck with the project

Thank you Jiri! You are one of my very favorite armourers. A compliment from you makes my day.

If you do make your kiln practice on scrap first! It would be a shame to melt any of your artwork!!! Make some simple dished pieces out of scrap and test on those. You do not need to be brave to do it. I did it, and I am a beginner.

<a href="http://elliscustomknifeworks.hightemptools.com/supplies-mainpage.html">Ellis Knife Works</a> has everything you need. I used kaowool, then a layer of satanite, then a layer of itc-100. Three venturi burners that take propane. Very simple to build, and cost about $400.

I can give you any pictures or diagrams of my kiln you wish.