Hypothetical Charny Question

sarnac · Post by **sarnac** » Fri Mar 15, 2002 12:24 pm

His Grace Sir Finnvarr posted this to our list and I thought it would evoke some very interesting responses from the people here....

as follows...

This Charny question was translated by Maurice Keen, and it's quite a bit too long to be in a sig file.
I thought some of my correspondence
would like to see it, so here it is:

Suppose there are two towns that are at war with one another,
and that in each there is a garrison of one hundred men-at-arms,
and between them there is a third town which is in truce,
but there dwell as many fair
damsels as in any town one may think of; and so it has fallen out that
each man-at-arms of the two towns has found a sweetheart to suit him and each holds his sweetheart to be the best and loveliest of them all.
Now it happens that the ladies whose sweethearts are in the one town write
to them and bid them come tomorrow to rejoice and dance with them, and so the companions rise early and spend the day and night feasting, and are well received in the manner that damsels should receive them that are their lovers.
And in the morning the ladies will have none arm them but themselves, each him whom she loves best, and kisses him at parting,
and bids him do well for the love of her.

And meantime the ladies and sweethearts of the companions of the other town mount all armed, gay and joyful to be going to see their ladies.
And as they are coming in the field they see their enemies who are coming from their sweethearts riding against them to combat them.
Which party would you rather be in to have the stronger will to acquit yourselves with honour?

Finnvarr

Kyle · Post by **Kyle** » Fri Mar 15, 2002 1:14 pm

Well, to make a crass observation, the aggression levels of the guys who were "well received in the manner that damsels should receive them that are their lovers." are going to be way down....

- Kyle (low and villainous)

Hushgirl · Post by **Hushgirl** » Fri Mar 15, 2002 2:45 pm

Or maybe not?

Munz · Post by **Munz** » Fri Mar 15, 2002 3:00 pm

Knowing Charny, he would answer that those who have recieved the care and addoration of their ladies would then be all the stronger, for not only did the honour of the ladies drive them to do greater feats of arms, but also those men at arms would strive harder to gain greater glory in the eyes of the same ladies from whom they've departed. Charny felt that the companionship of noble ladies not only increased the grace and nobility of a man, but he states in the "Book of Chivalry" that a some of the greatest men are those who fight in wars and tournaments for the love of a woman. He feels that this gives a man even more justification to join in combat because he has a reason to gain glory not only for himself but for the lady as well.

In reality, I would bet on the angry, charging men-at-arms myself

Bob H · Post by **Bob H** » Fri Mar 15, 2002 3:32 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Munz:
 He feels that this gives a man even more justification to join in combat because he has a reason to gain glory not only for himself but for the lady as well.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not knowing de Charny, I'd ask this - was he referring here to courtly love, or the more "fruitful" variety?

Gaston de Clermont · Post by **Gaston de Clermont** » Fri Mar 15, 2002 7:32 pm

Both the departing and the arriving men at arms are championing ladies, so that aspect would cancel.

Charny does come down hard on soft living. Sleeping in a soft bed, eating and drinking too much are not the stuff that makes hardy warriors in his book. I picture his honest answer would be the arriving force would be better prepared, and better able to endure the hardships of the coming battle. Their rewards are as yet ungiven, so they have additional motivation.

Charny was by all accounts a devout Catholic. He owned the Turin Shroud, and defense of the church and piety are major ideas in his writing. So I doubt his vision of the garrison's welcome would be anything but chaste.
Gaston de Clermont