To hem or not to hem? (14th cen dress question)

[Cian of Storvik]

I purchased a linen dress for my girlfriend in a 14th century style (fitted in the torso with tippets). The dress actually fits her quite well, except for the length of the skirt, which drags on the ground.
I started to pin it to length. but I then noticed that a lot of illuminations from the 14th century show women standing with the hem of the dress bunching up where it touches the ground.
The hem is about 5" too long, and she will have to ball it up in her hand to move from point A to B. Are there any opinions as to the best length for a) period b) utility. Should I leave it this long? Should I hem it so it's only a little too long? Or should I hem it so it just touches the ground, or hovers an inch off of the ground? It seems logical that you wouldn't want the skirt laying in the ground as it would get dirty fast. Yet I have difficulty finding an image of a skirt tha doesn't fall into a bunch at the feet of the woman. Anyhow, 5" seems way too long (although it does look a bit elegant trailing behind.
-Cian

[Jess]

I like them long. All my fancy dresses are long. Except it is difficult to carry anything that way since you have to carry the dress. Usually if I'm in a fancy dress, guys will volunteer to carry my stuff anyway. In a pinch, I can hike it up in my belt. But if I'm in a position I'm likely to have to carry anything or trudge through mud, I usually just wear mens clothing. It's easier.

I do not willingly dance anymore. But when I was young and in love and danced, I liked them to be just about an inch or two past touching the ground. I could keep the skirt out of the way with the way I moved and it had the benefit of hiding my dance steps as well as my modern shoes.

It's whatever she likes.

[Tailoress]

Cian, I suspect this is mostly a class thing. The higher the class, the longer the skirt. Peasant gals generally have shorter hems. Check the famous June leaf from the Tres Riche Heures (granted, dated to 1415, but the fitted style is of the same basic block).

For practicality, I hem mine to between 1 inch above the floor to ankle-length. If you got her a dress "with tippets", is it short-sleeved? If so, will she be wearing a proper dress beneath it too? If so, make sure that the tippeted dress's hem is a tad longer than the hem of the dress beneath it.

I have an old paper that is, IMO, still relevant on the topic of fitted dress layers for women in the time period you're covering. If you haven't already taken a gander at it, you can find a link to it on the front page of my website. Hope it helps.

-Tasha

[Katherina]

5" in the front really sounds hard to handle, especially if it´s her first long dress.
For practicability, I´d suggest pinning the front only while letting her stand with her chest thrust out as much as possible. When she stands relaxed in a dress of this lenght, it will look nice and a bit too long, and will also prevent the wind from getting under the skirt and keep her warm, and when she wants to walk fast or dance without holding her skirt, she can walk in a very erect posture and have her feet free. I hope I was able to explain this. My favorite dress is 1,6" too long in the front and 6 in the back, it looks nice and works well. Depending on the curve of the bust, it might be more than 1,6".
Period upper class dresses look like they have the same lenght all around, but I found that I´m just too clumsy to feel graceful carrying my skirts. Poulaines would probably shoveling the fabric, have you considered that option?

[Cian of Storvik]

I think my GF would prefer it to be up around the knees. (she's not much of a dress wearer unless it's a suit skirt or spring dress).
Thank you for the information. The dress is short sleeved (just past elbow) with inbuilt tippets (from Revival). The plan was to have it worn over a lonsleeved shift, but I'll take a look at the infromation you posted on your website, Tasha. I might be misinterpreting illustrations.

I was thinking a chemise and linen dress would be about as many layers as would be comfortable in the summer. I had pinned it so it was level with the floor, but I'll hem it up to 1" above the floor and just leave enough that I can drop the hem again if she changes her mind.


Thanks again for all of the advice. I will take a look at your website, Tasha and see if there is an equivalent to the style of dress I got her from Revival.
-Cian

[Karen Larsdatter]

I'm going to take a whole different tack on this and say that if it's too long for her, then it's too long.

That medieval lady in the illustration just has to stand there in the illustration and look purdy. She will never have to wash a dish, take down a pavilion on a muddy day, or carry her dishes into a feast-hall. You know why? She's just an illustration.

Your girlfriend, on the other hand, may have other things she needs to do, including, but not limited to: walking, getting in and out of vehicles, helping to set stuff up or take stuff down, etc.

Having a dress that drags on the ground is lovely. I have a few that do that (which is impressive, fabric-wise, because I'm kind of tall). But linen gets shabby quick when it's dragged over the ground, especially when it's one layer of linen skittering over dirt and grass and gravel -- rather than, say, a nicely-lined wool dress that just sweeps elegantly over interior floors.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

I broke my L big toe the first day I wore my hakama, it only touched the ground, it wasn't 5" too long. But I wasn't taking dainty steps, either...

I don't see much reason for dragging the skirt through the dirt, water, mud...

[Charlotte J]

My first dress was longer than floor length. It was pretty, but a big pain in the neck. I usually hem at floor or about an inch above.

What does she want?

[Malachiuri]

My wife tends to hem her 14th cent stuff very long. Shes gotten good at hiking the extra up into her hip belt when needed or just grabbing hold when she needs to move fast.

Call me Capt. Creepy, but I just love the profile of a good 14th cent dress with the extra fabric pooled at her feet. Guess thats why just one more reason to love her...

[Tailoress]

The dress is short sleeved (just past elbow) with inbuilt tippets (from Revival). The plan was to have it worn over a lonsleeved shift, but I'll take a look at the infromation you posted on your website, Tasha. I might be misinterpreting illustrations.

Generally the only time you're going to see chemise sleeves is in a private setting, like the bedroom/birthing room, laboring (like in a field), or in something intended to show dishevelment. A theory made popular by Robin Netherton is that one only sees the chemise sleeves of various Mary Magdelenes painted in the Flemish School because it's a symbol of her distraught state. Robin argues that ladies did not walk around all the time with short-sleeved dresses showing their chemises.

I was thinking a chemise and linen dress would be about as many layers as would be comfortable in the summer.

Everyone's tolerances are different; I can wear two layers of wool over a linen chemise at a hot Pennsic and get by. I know others would spontaneously combust just *imagining* such a thing.

I'm going to suggest an easy cheat that would not require buying anything new but would make your girlfriend's look more authentic, at least at a "peasanty" sort of level: cut off the tippets. She can wear the short-sleeved, lace-up dress over the chemise and put a veil or head rail on her head, with or without a straw hat, perhaps, and look like a pretty decent peasant.

The problem with that dress is that it's a lace-up dress (implying it's a cotte, not a surcotte) with a surcotte's fancy sleeve finish, i.e. the tippets. It's a hybrid, albeit a pretty one.

At least for an introduction to wearing these kinds of clothes, I'd cut and finish that hem to at least 2 inches off the ground to give her a chance at feeling comfortable.

Good luck! I hope she finds enjoyment in this crazy hobby of ours.

[Karen Larsdatter]

FWIW, I think this illustration has been referenced above (from the Tres Riches Heures) but not linked-to. (Part of the skirts have been tucked up into the belt -- it's not that the skirts are that short ALL the time.)
http://www.wga.hu/art/l/limbourg/06juin.jpg

[Tailoress]

Good point, Karen... I tend to interpret that image to show a hemline that naturally would fall at the ankle, if not tucked into the belt. Ankle-length is super-comfy.

[Karen Larsdatter]

Yeah, it's really kind of hard to say with the Tres Riches Heures peasant-women, because they always seem to either have their skirts hitched up (February, June, September) or they're bent over & kneeling (July) so you can't really tell where the hemline would have fallen.

(And here I mean "skirts" as in the waist-down portion of the gown or kirtle, rather than asserting that they're separate skirts or petticoats, which was not the case.)

I'm trying to think of some comparable garments in illustrations from other books of hours of the same era -- see http://larsdatter.com/booksofhours.htm ... there's a few in there. I think the <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0300136714?ie=UTF8&tag=suggestion-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0300136714">Belles Heures</a> (Cloisters 54.1.1) is really the next-best, in terms of keeping to the same workshop of illustrators, time-period, and location) but all of the women in there (at least, those who aren't otherwise nekkid) are wearing dresses that drape way past their feet.

[Tailoress]

If I have some time I'll try to track down a spattering of images showing fitted dresses above the ground in the 14thc. If they're online, maybe you could link to them as a subsection of shorter dresses for those who want documentation for keeping their dresses off the ground.

[Charlotte J]

I found a few quickies browsing around the effigies and brasses website, and on wikimedia commons. They're out there, but they're not as easy to find as longer dresses.

But I can't imagine anybody saying that she's not accurate enough if her dress isn't long. Even high fidelity LH groups don't have that expectation.

[Tailoress]

I found a few quickies browsing around the effigies and brasses website, and on wikimedia commons. They're out there, but they're not as easy to find as longer dresses.

I'd not expect to find much in monuments... those are mostly for snooty rich folks.

How about the various Tacuinum Sanitatis MSs? Am I recalling correctly that various women doing outdoors work are in practically-hemmed dresses? I call upon the Archive hive-mind to answer that, because I'm not at home to check my own resources.

[Charlotte J]

Quick browsing shows me more women than I'd have expected with long dresses in the T.S.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Categ ... ry_fashion

A short one:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... omne03.jpg

Even the brasses show some shorter ones:

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments ... e_wynston/

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/joan_foxley/

Certainly not exhaustive. Just poking about during the day.

[Tailoress]

Awesome. I love this place.

[Ceadda]

At Coronation a few weeks ago, I was in my spiffy nearly floor length (and uber-masculine) Saxon gowyn when I got called up on stage to receive an award. All was fine until I had to stand up from where I was kneeling between and before our newly minted King and Queen when the tunic got beneath my heels and for about 10 second I stumble to get it out from under my feet before I pitched over backwards off of the stage.

[Tailoress]

Oh Crimthann! *claps hand over mouth* I am so sorry to hear that. Forgive me if I laugh at the imagery you've wrought. Don't ask us ladies how many of us have ripped our hems and tripped on stairs, thanks to our long skirts...

[Ceadda]

Laugh all you want. It was funny. The Queen nearly sprang from her throne to catch me.

I'm not used to these long hem lines. Funnily enough, the award was a Order of the Willow, for my research and construction of Irish and Saxon Garb.

I'll admit, since then I've practiced kneeling and standing in it since. I might end up a little shorter though.