Is there any evidence that greeks used scale?

[owen matthew]

I can find support for Romans all day, but I am looking for Greek examples right now. If not Greeks, where did Romans get the influence from, not Etruscans, right? Thank you very much!

[Destichado]

I've seen both greek and etruscan scale. The harness worn looks a lot like a linthorax, and scales cover the middle section from chest to waist. By the number of representations, I gather that this was not an uncommon style of harness.

[owen matthew]

I saw a couple things like what you are describing, but they were on web stores that sell the costume crap. I look at their other offerings, which I know a bit about, and they are so horrible that I have a hard time crediting any of the items I do not know.

I just cannot find reliable pictures yet.

[Fearghus Macildubh]

Owen,
Check out Peter Conolly's "Greece and Rome at War" He has pictures of vases and frescoes showing that short of armour. Here's an example
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... _F2278.jpg
Now there is a caveat, it's a depiction of Achilles and Patrolocus, so the scales could be artistic convention.

[Dan Howard]

Yeah there is more than enough evidence to suggest that classical Greeks wore scale armour. Most people assume bronze scales but I'm thinking that hardened leather or iron may have been used too.

[Gerhard von Liebau]

Dan Howard saying hardened leather and used in the same sentence?

*heart attack*

-Gregory

[owen matthew]

Thank you guys!

[Peikko]

Dan Howard saying hardened leather and used in the same sentence?

*heart attack*

-Gregory

[Dan Howard]

Dan Howard saying hardened leather and used in the same sentence?*

Leather scale was common during this time period in many cultures. I have a problem with leather segmentata and leather breastplates.

[Glaukos the Athenian]

Herodotus, Book IX

..........Immediately the Athenians rushed upon Masistius as he lay, caught his horse, and when he himself made resistance, slew him. At first, however, they were not able to take his life; for his armour hindered them. He had on a breastplate formed of golden scales, with a scarlet tunic covering it. Thus the blows, all falling upon his breastplate, took no effect, till one of the soldiers, perceiving the reason, drove his weapon into his eye and so slew him. .............

http://classics.mit.edu/Herodotus/history.9.ix.html

[Gerhard von Liebau]

Leather scale was common during this time period in many cultures. I have a problem with leather segmentata and leather breastplates.

Haha, was just playin' with you, of course, Dan. I know well enough your opinions on these matters as expressed in the past! I'm actually looking forward to doing up a hardened leather scale vest in a linothorax silhouette sooner than later, should be fun.

-Gregory

[Dan Howard]

Herodotus, Book IX

..........Immediately the Athenians rushed upon Masistius as he lay, caught his horse, and when he himself made resistance, slew him. At first, however, they were not able to take his life; for his armour hindered them. He had on a breastplate formed of golden scales, with a scarlet tunic covering it. Thus the blows, all falling upon his breastplate, took no effect, till one of the soldiers, perceiving the reason, drove his weapon into his eye and so slew him. .............

http://classics.mit.edu/Herodotus/history.9.ix.html

This is evidence for Persian scale armour. Not Greek scale armour.
The word "breastplate" in that translation would more accurately be translated as something like "corselet".

[Glaukos the Athenian]

It is like asking whether WWII British commandos used MP38s or Waffen SS in the Falaise used M1 carbines. That is not what was available on their end, but that does not mean Greek would not use it and eventually copy it. In fact, Greeks were well known from taking armour from defeated enemies, either as trophy or to wear, in imitation of the Iliad.

As for scales proper... if those are not scales on the Linothorax, they surely look alot like them....



technology, especially useful technology, moves quickly along cultural boundaries.

[Gerhard von Liebau]

Glaukos,

Where has anyone said that scale did not exist in Greece? Have you actually read the rest of this tiny thread? Destichado, Michael Ekelmann and Dan Howard have already said that scales definitely existed among the Greeks in posts above yours. There are numerous pottery sources such as the one you just posted that show this to be true. What he's saying is that your quote about Persian scale at a particular battle is irrelevant.

It is like asking whether WWII British commandos used MP38s or Waffen SS in the Falaise used M1 carbines. That is not what was available on their end, but that does not mean Greek would not use it and eventually copy it. In fact, Greeks were well known from taking armour from defeated enemies, either as trophy or to wear, in imitation of the Iliad.

Why would the Greeks copy it? We can not know if they copied any number of the tactics, arms or armor of their enemies that may have become semi-useful to the Greek soldiers... Perhaps some of these elements did inspire changes in particular hoplite armies, or even amongst individuals, but we have little evidence to suggest such shifts from a large or a small scale. If they had, it is likely that it was done rarely and is most certainly beyond our realm of knowledge today. The fact is that Dan pointed out that your quote does not lend credibility to this discussion of Greeks using scale, and that's the truth.

I could sit here and type of hundreds of instances where one nationality or army did not adopt the arms and armor of their enemies, much less become notable for it, after the closing of a battle or a campaign. Just because it "could have happened" doesn't mean it's reasonable to use such assumptions for research purposes, much less debate about the existence of an item in one place when your citation provides evidence for its existence elsewhere. Finally, it is also important to recognize (as I know you do) the absolutely disdain that the Greeks had for the Persians. Why the hell would one put on their body armor or use his weapons and look more like them and less like his friends on the field of battle? The Greeks considered their foreign enemies to be barbarians, and it is my opinion that the likelihood of them adopting the technologies of warfare from these people is extremely unlikely, especially after they continued to defeat them in battle.

-Gregory

[Glaukos the Athenian]

Yup...

I am surely guilty of passing over stuff as I read threads too fast.

My bad.