Real Plate and Mail Tourney

[Asbjorn Johansen]

As part of the Historical Combat Series at Pennsic XXX1 I’d like to offer the Real Plate and Mail Tourney. Counted blows will be used, no exposed plastic. Even nicely covered plastic doesn’t count as plate. (Completely hidden plastic to reinforce mail – I’ll ask you why you didn’t use leather, but it is acceptable).

I want this tournament the emphasizes the knight shining armour image, and rewards dedicated folks for wearing steel. I’d also like it to reward a nice period look (we’ve all seen wonderful steel worked into something that is appropriate comic book or rpg, but not in a historical group). Beyond the rules above, I’m not sure what the best way to run this tourney would be so I’m looking for advice.

Here are a couple of ideas:

Only the pretty may enter – Other than the already specified criteria, its a standard SCA tournament.

Are you a fighter or a clothes horse – Meet the basic criteria to enter – two prizes one for winning the tournament, one for best portrayal of a particular time (extra points if you bring your own documentation with you).

Beautiful people always win – One prize, person who has the best combined score between fighting and portrayal wins.

The rewards of going all out – armour as worn with counted blows. Mail gets three, transitional plate and mail mix gets five, rich folks with the Maximilian plate get 7. Judges reserve the right to give someone an extra blow for a particularly nice portrayal.

Comments, thoughts?

[Vitus von Atzinger]

Remember a couple of years ago when that young lady showed up for this tourney and thought she qualified for admission just because the tiny steel plates on the front of her brig were "made of metal". They let her fight- that had better not happen this year.
-Vitus

[Vladimir]

looks like I have to make some repairs to my steel scale byrnie.

350 of the little buggers are trying to rip loose from their canvas backing.

[Dmitriy]

What about the Nomadic Tank harness?

(steel bazubands, maille, steel lamellar, full face-mask helm.. -- sorta like our friend Janos here, http://www.100megsfree3.com/kragaxe/archive/gallery3/janos.html )

[Vitus von Atzinger]

I would pass the Nomadic Tank in a second. That is quite a load.
-V

[Asbjorn Johansen]

Its a nice, I believe historic, rig. I'd allowI’d allow anyone who’s primarily in steel, and in some form of pre 1600 harness.

As for folks who show up in something truly inappropriate (tin foil wrapped plastic etc) – I wish I could do what they would have done at a tourney in period, give them an instructive beating and make them ride the rail.

Any comments on structure of the tourney?

Asbjorn

[Vitus von Atzinger]

What I am most interested in is creating a tourney that has a more equal competitive footing for these guys who are wearing the type of gear they would be wearing if the weapons were REAL.
-V

[Murdock]

I remember her. Nice girl but not in appropriat gear for the list as stated in the book.

I'll play again.

What does a mutated Italian export harness rate??

[Dmitriy]

I meant, what does it rate?

[hanjo]

How about non plastic this is the real thing samurai gear? And what about bargrilles?


Hanjo

[Asbjorn Johansen]

Votes from Murdock and Vitus for an “armour as wornâ€

[knoch]

where does Stainles steel fall into this? Most of my kit is Stainles except for the helm and gountlets.

http://www.skeesick.com/images//Knoch.jpg

From Knoch

(yep I still cant spell)

[marcidius]

I've seen at least 3 pics of Murdock's kit
I've even emailed him about it, It's a beauty. He is pretty


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Love us with money, or we'll hate you with hammers! - Milk and Cheese

[Vitus von Atzinger]

I don't remember saying I was interested in an "armour as worn" scenario- only that I wanted to exclude guys in regular SCA leather legs and arms. However, I can see how you would think that I did. Let me think about this.
-V

[Steve S.]

This sounds like a great idea!

Steve

------------------
Forth Armoury
The Riveted Maille Website!

[armouredhedgehog]

That sounds wonderful! I like the armour as worn idea. One question- does steel lamelar over riveted chain count for 5 blows as the transitional would? It would seem to be about the same protection. Last pensic was my first and I must admit I did no tournies. The battles just seemed of more interest to me, but this... this sounds cool. Keep us posted, especially when we get closer to pennsic.

[Stephen]

I have to ask the same as another. What about stainless. even the shield in my kit is stainless.

http://communities.msn.com/_Secure/0MwCERywSu846lRtgCty2ShvZuW!6thlEK9ODCoV8*REPU6X0Y3FyBDF52I890w0bogOop1EKTT6EGSpV6MJfnw/steve16.jpg


I would love the idea od a plate tourney where blows are counted . Do you mean the 10 blows offensive to score and 10 blows defensive for the other person to try and score and then adding up who had the most hits. I think that would be pretty impressive to watch in a circle. It would also show how much restraint the defensive person was, not being able to throw blows till his or her turn to be on the offensive.

[Owen]

I wear plate (Lorica Segmentata) on my body and steel greaves, but leather on my thighs and arms. Do I get to enter? I have a really spiffy/annoying crest!

------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

[Steiner of Iron Mountain]

So would these guys except for the east german guy do? I'm the one next to Murdoch by the way.
http://www.olamshrine.com/blessing/blessing_14.html

http://www.olamshrine.com/blessing/blessing_18.html

Will you consider doing this annualy? I wouldn't be able to make it until next year.

[Vitus von Atzinger]

Owen, If I were the Knight of Honor I would turn you away. My own harness would make me ineligable. What Steve, Steiner and Murdock are wearing is what I would be looking for. I think one of the requirements should be steel leg and arm harness. I would agree to not ask questions about covered body armours, but I would have to....
This is getting very complicated. However, I am really into helping make this happen. In fact, I think it may be the most historical SCA tourney ever run at Pennsic (if done right). I am not afraid of being involved in Armour-as-Worn, even though it will be a very controversial tournament.
People are going to bitch about and make jokes about "armour class". I don't care. As ex- D&D geeks, we certainly all understand it. It won't be that bad.
-Vitus

[Owen]

Vitus- I wear as much as the "Nomadic Tank Harness", which has no metal at all on the legs. I'm also wearing plate, not mail. I have steel on my legs, almost as much as a fighter wearing 1/2 legs. I have been looking into steel bezubands, that would match my greaves.

I really need to get new pics up.

------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

[Vladimir]

Would a combatant with coverage in steel the equivalent of a 1066 norman hauberk be allowed to compete. That is the coverage of my scale armour.

My neck, the upper portions of my arms and shoulders, my entire torso front and back, down to about my knees.

[Vitus von Atzinger]

The problem I am having with mixed armours is that I wouldn't want to have to apply a lesser defense value to *parts* of your harness. See what I mean? All of our harnesses have plate somewhere.
The Nomadic Tank is a bit of a problem, as is your gear, Owen. The N-Tank is carrying a great load of hell up top, but I would have to behave as if the legs were only defended by pants.
This IS getting complicated. I suppose everyone would be looked over and given a rating.

[Asbjorn Johansen]

To answer some questions:

Any type of steel is fine – mild, stainless, spring etc.

The steel can be covered , as long as it was meant to be covered. Cloth covered breastplates, coats of plates, brigandines as long as there is steel underneath, it fine. If your portraying an un armoured Celt and are wearing steel plate underneath your clothes, it’s a no go.

Blows received not blows thrown for blow counting.

Now we are asking the hard questions – What does predominately steel mean?

I can think of a couple of ways to go here, but this is my first thought.

To participate a fighter must me wearing a steel body harness, helm, elbows, and knees, as well as steel covering two of the four following areas: upper arm, lower arm, upper leg, and lower leg.

Now this might seem too accepting, but we add this stipulation in the Combat rules.

Anyone receiving a blow to a body part not covered by steel immediately loses.

So re written we have:
The Plate and Mail Tourney.
Entry requirements – Must be attempting to do a portrayal of a pre 1600 warrior wearing predominately steel (mild, stainless, spring etc. armour). No exposed plastic. Even nicely covered plastic doesn’t count as plate. (Completely hidden plastic to reinforce mail – I’ll ask you why you didn’t use leather, but it is acceptable).
Predominately steel armour is defined as a steel body harness, helm, elbows, and knees, as well as steel covering two of the four following areas: upper arm, lower arm, upper leg, and lower leg. (A long body harness, such as a mail haurberk will count as covering the upper legs if of sufficient length).
Combat Conventions for the Tourney
Armour as Worn with Counted blows received.
Blow Standards
Mail gets three, transitional plate and mail mix gets five, rich folks with the Maximilian plate get 7. Judges reserve the right to grant an extra blow for a particularly nice portrayal (documentation is a plus).
Anyone receiving a blow or thrust to a body part not covered by steel immediately loses.
Blows from one handed swords do not have to be counted if they strike a steel covered area.
Anyone receiving a thrust to an open faced (bar grilled) helm immediately loses.
A dropped weapon does not stop the fight.
Whoever falls and cannot recover before their opponent can touch them with his weapon has lost
Anyone who is driven from the list has lost.

Any thoughts? Anyone want to contribute a prize?

Asbjorn

[knoch]

Here are my two Cents. Why are you allowing Bar grill helms? Please also ask for Documentation of the armor for signing up to the list also. There are A lot of good examples of armor out there. If you want to take this Tourney to the next level be very exact on what you want. Dont be afraid to turn people out for there kits not meeting the Standerds. There are allready so many Tournys at Pensic for any one to fight in.

From Knoch

[Steve S.]

You would almost have to allow bar grills. Normans need one. Most 14th century helms need one.

Steve

------------------
Forth Armoury
The Riveted Maille Website!

[Conrad the Mad]

I for one agree with the bar grills, after all they have been proven to be "period"

This sounds like it is gonna be really good, may I make a small request that this tournament be held during war week? Many people including me, will not be at Pennsic untill the second week.

I guess I better get cracking on my kit.

[Gaston de Clermont]

Even if you include all the kettle hats made, I'm not sure that you could support the statement that most 14th century helms require a bar grill. Certainly most tournament helms, which is what most people wear, did not use bar grills. Their tournaments tended not to be the systematic 15th century baton style we see King Renee of Anjou suggesting where you could rely on the baton's width to prevent your face from being shredded. (His work is here: http://www.princeton.edu/~ezb/rene/renehome.html )

This might give you a feel for what some of the 14th century tournaments were like:
http://www.nipissingu.ca/department/history/muhlberger/froissart/fp.htm

The main helms worn in tournaments in the 14th century were variations on the barrel helm, jousting helms which started to morph into a specialized beast during this era, and bascinets with face plates which were either pointed or globular. I've seen no evidence of bar grills being used in 14th century tournaments, and there's only one example of a bascinet of this era that has one at all, and that's flipped up for some reason. Sharp pointy things like lances, thrusting swords and arrows became very popular in the 14th, so a bar grill didn't make a lot of sense, and it's very unlikely to stop a thrust. A bar grill on anything dating between the Roman gladiatorial helms and the bascinet has no documentation, and it's not period. It's a compromise for our safety rules.

If there's not enough metal to stop a real weapon from hitting your body maybe I shouldn't have to hit it more than once to make you bleed.

I do agree that having these tournaments in the second week of Pennsic would help attendance, and broaden the audience.
Regards,
Gaston

[Alexi]

ohhh my armour is datable from 1610 urghhhh

[Otto von Teich]

Sounds very workable to me. Sounds like fun!........Otto

[Effingham]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Hanjo – if its steel its ok, otherwise no go (I thought the Japanesse used laquered steel in their armour)</font>

Yes, but a few points.

1. The Japanese did not fight as we do, with blunt bludgeons, hour after hour, fight after fight. Their armour was allowed one (1) catastrophic failure: you died. We have a dozen such "catastrophic failures" in a single fighter practise.

2. Lacquer is fragile, and chips when struck by blunt objects. It even cracks and chips on its own after years of constant use when not struck.

3. Lacquer is toxic (and horribly expensive). It should not be used by people without training, experience, or protection.

4. Black plastic scales looks more like lacquered leather than plain leather does.

Therefore: I will continue to use such material in construction of scale armours of Japanese style. If you feel that this authentically appearing and authentically weighing material is inappropriate just because of the nature of the material, I'm sorry you don't understand the nature of Japanese armour better.

Have fun in the tourney.

Effingham

[Brodir]

I think you should put a 1300's & 1400's timeframe on it as well. If you are allowing Romans, Normans or Norsemen into the lists, under the condition that they wear a greater burden than their persona would have, it's senseless. Also, I think you would get a much more pleasing aesthetic if everyone's kit was within 200 years of each other. I don't mean down to counting the # of articulations on each pair of elbows, but just the proper general appearance.

Sounds like it will be a spectacle to behold, no matter what route you guys decide to go. Good luck!

[Asbjorn Johansen]

First, remember, I’m not trying to do everything perfect in one tourney, yet. I realize that a lot of compromises made so we can all fight on the same field. With each event included in the Historical Combat Series, I’m trying to focus on doing a few aspects better than everyday SCA combat. With this one, I’m trying to reward folks for wearing armour, which of course in typical SCA combat gets no reward.

Bar Grills – Knoch - I know some folks hate them, but they are the only way to portray on open faced helm in combat. There are many instances of folks choosing to where open faced helms in tournaments. They traded off protection for visibility. I think I’m going to make it a little riskier though. (please use a separate thread to debate the periodness of bar grills pre 1450 ).

Brodir - Concentration on 1300’ and 1400 Europe - There are examples of many other cultures who were fully encased in steel. That’s what I want to focus on. I will try to re word so that other cultures need to be wearing culturally appropriate armour. Pleasing aesthetic is nice, but its not my goal for this Tournament (Hopefully we will be having a Combat of the Thirty recreation that will be good for you).

Timing – Either today or tomorrow I’m going to try and post a proposed list of times for all the events, than we can start to debate details (I dread trying to work around battles, the Pennsic Pas, Order Meetings, Court etc, once again I’ll ask that folks keep time debates to that thread ).


Effingham - This tournament may not be appropriate for folks wearing typical SCA Japanese armour.

So re written we have:

The Plate and Mail Tourney.

Entry requirements – Must be attempting to do a portrayal of a pre 1600 warrior wearing predominately steel armour (mild, stainless, spring etc. are all acceptable). No exposed plastic. Even nicely covered plastic doesn’t count as plate. (Completely hidden plastic to reinforce mail – I’ll ask you why you didn’t use leather, but it is acceptable).

Predominately steel armour is defined as a historically appropriate steel body harness, helm, elbows, and knees, as well as steel covering two of the four following areas: upper arm, lower arm, upper leg, and lower leg. (A long body harness, such as a mail haurberk will count as covering the upper legs if of sufficient length). (A predominately steel harness is most common in Europe, from 1050 on, but certainly other cultures did wear them. If you think there may be questions concerning the historical appropriateness of your armour, feel free to bring documentation).

Combat Conventions for the Tourney

Armour as Worn with Counted blows received.

Blow Standards

Mail gets three, transitional plate and mail mix gets five, rich folks with the Maximilian plate get 7. Judges reserve the right to grant an extra blow for a particularly nice portrayal (documentation is a plus).

Anyone receiving a blow or thrust to a body part not covered by steel immediately loses.

Blows from one handed swords do not have to be counted if they strike a steel covered area.

Anyone receiving a thrust or blow to an open faced (bar grilled for safety) helm immediately loses.

Anyone receiving a thrust to a helm that has a period appropriate grilled visor (a grilled great bascinet for example) immediately loses.

A dropped weapon does not stop the fight.

Whoever falls and cannot recover before their opponent can touch them with his weapon has lost.

Anyone who is driven from the list has lost.

Any thoughts?

Anyone want to contribute a prize or have ideas for a prize?

Asbjorn


[This message has been edited by Asbjorn Johansen (edited 01-30-2002).]

[Joe Skeesick]

Well, interesting to come back after a long move and find yourself the topic of discussion...

I'd love to participate in this type of event but I also understand the problem my kit brings to the table, but in fairness you really can't divide the kit like that without getting in to really convoluted targe values. Most kits aside from white harness has differening protection on various areas of the body. Then there is the whole issue of thrusts vs. cuts vs. mass weapon damage. The whole, I've got a mace and your in mail, yer dead! issue.

Unfortunatly these types of things can't have hard and fast rules which means some people will get their feelings hurt because the decision would have to be an arbitrary.... 'damn, fine looking kit, your in'... vs. a 'nope your hiding plastic yer out' and the armour could be similar (such as the issue between Owen's kit and mine) Hard call on those things and I certainly wouldn't make one on Owen's without seeing it.

To me it should come down to overall impression. Is it mainly maille and plate? and whats not maille and plate is it dress accordingly. In otherwords, in my case, I would wear pants. What do you care I'm bare naked under there or not (um, don't answer that) that is an issue of saftey and should be looked at seperately. Judge on acceptable for the tourney by appearance only and it might make a cloudy subject a bit easier to judge.

J


[This message has been edited by Janos (edited 01-31-2002).]

[SyrRhys]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Effingham:
<B> Yes, but a few points.

1. The Japanese did not fight as we do, with blunt bludgeons, hour after hour, fight after fight. Their armour was allowed one (1) catastrophic failure: you died. We have a dozen such "catastrophic failures" in a single fighter practise.

2. Lacquer is fragile, and chips when struck by blunt objects. It even cracks and chips on its own after years of constant use when not</B> struck.

3. Lacquer is toxic (and horribly expensive). It should not be used by people without training, experience, or protection.

4. Black plastic scales looks more like lacquered leather than plain leather does.

Therefore: I will continue to use such material in construction of scale armours of Japanese style. If you feel that this authentically appearing and authentically weighing material is inappropriate just because of the nature of the material, I'm sorry you don't understand the nature of Japanese armour better.

Have fun in the tourney.

Effingham</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gosh, it must be tough to do a Bushi in a western European tournament, then, huh?

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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field: Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"