Looking for Info on Visor

Bleddyn De Caldicot · Post by **Bleddyn De Caldicot** » Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:30 pm

I was wondering if there are any surviving visors in this particular style seen on the effigy of Sir Hugh Hastings?

Any images of reproductions of this visor style would also be appreciated.

RandallMoffett · Post by **RandallMoffett** » Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:43 pm

First thing is I do not think the two visors you have here are the same. I think the top one is a 'shovel' face bascinet, like the holkham bible and the second is a round faced.

RPM

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:47 pm

I believe the second to be artistic speculation. Not based on a real example.

The first, looks to me like an attempt at a forshortened pigface.

Bleddyn De Caldicot · Post by **Bleddyn De Caldicot** » Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:55 pm

RandallMoffett wrote:First thing is I do not think the two visors you have here are the same. I think the top one is a 'shovel' face bascinet, like the holkham bible and the second is a round faced.

RPM

I agree they are not the same but they have similarities like the pointed bottom of the visor and the vertical slits instead of a horizontal occular. Either way I am wondering if there are surviving examples of these visors.

@InsaneIrish Sir Hugh's effigy is a bit early to be seeing a pigfaced visor, my interpretation of it is that the visor is turned up by 180 degrees, therefore making the pointed bit the bottom of the visor.

If the second is artistic interpretation I am curious as to if there are any surviving pieces it may have been based off of.

RandallMoffett · Post by **RandallMoffett** » Tue Jun 08, 2010 4:57 pm

You actually see round faces visors around this time so I'd guess it more than the artist's fancy. I had thought about doing such a visor but then went with a style I am very interested in.

I think the top one terminated as a standard Great helm would, with a center point and gentled angle sides to the sides while number two I'd guess is more bevor like.

To me the first visor simply looks as a great helmish type visor would look mostly up. In fact my helmet I use in many ways reminds me of this effigy when I have it lifted part way up. I agree it'd be too early for a pig face and depictions of them, ince they are around, look very little like this one.

As far as I know there are 0 visors from the first half of the fourteenth, at least in one piece that is.

RPM

Bleddyn De Caldicot · Post by **Bleddyn De Caldicot** » Tue Jun 08, 2010 5:13 pm

RandallMoffett wrote:I think the top one terminated as a standard Great helm would, with a center point and gentled angle sides to the sides...

To me the first visor simply looks as a great helmish type visor would look mostly up. In fact my helmet I use in many ways reminds me of this effigy when I have it lifted part way up. I agree it'd be too early for a pig face and depictions of them, ince they are around, look very little like this one.

As far as I know there are 0 visors from the first half of the fourteenth, at least in one piece that is.

RPM

This is what I though as well. Didn't know that no visors survived from the first half of the century. :sad:

Anybody know of any recreations of these visors or of similar ones?

RandallMoffett · Post by **RandallMoffett** » Tue Jun 08, 2010 6:34 pm

I have made 8-10 of the shovel/keel/ great helmish type visor over the last 6 or so years. I toy around with different features but they are all generally the same. Here is one I made back in 2006 or 2007.

I should say this is more based on the Taymouth Hours and Holkham Bible (1320s) than the Hastings effigy visor, so a bit earlier than you are looking.

RPM

Bleddyn De Caldicot · Post by **Bleddyn De Caldicot** » Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:52 pm

RandallMoffett wrote:I have made 8-10 of the shovel/keel/ great helmish type visor over the last 6 or so years. I toy around with different features but they are all generally the same. Here is one I made back in 2006 or 2007.

I should say this is more based on the Taymouth Hours and Holkham Bible (1320s) than the Hastings effigy visor, so a bit earlier than you are looking.

RPM

Thank you. I am also specifically interested in the sectioned occulars.

RandallMoffett · Post by **RandallMoffett** » Wed Jun 09, 2010 10:12 am

Have not made any with sectioned oculars like that yet. I'd imagine it'd be about the same, except instead of simply cutting the slot out you'd hammer them (with a chisel) out like a pig nose and then lots of filing.

Good luck!

RPM

Graham Ashford · Post by **Graham Ashford** » Sun Jun 13, 2010 4:01 pm

Randall

What would the visor you created be called? I am trying to get some research done as its exactly the sort of thing I am after for my own helm.

All the best

Graham

arg · Post by **arg** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:02 pm

Anyone have enough photo's to put together a visor construction tutorial? I'm attempting to build one with limited tools and skill, any and all help is greatly appreciated. If a tutorial allready exists, posting the link would be sweet.

and while I'm on the subject, is there a stockpile of tutorials out there anywhere (other websites) or are we limited to condcuting *item search tutorial* here on the AA?

Thanks

Arg

Cian of Storvik · Post by **Cian of Storvik** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 3:25 pm

I have pictures of a similar visor I made for a bar grilled bascinet I got off of Ebay in this following thread:

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... p?t=109583

Near the top you can see the cardboard pattern I made to get the look I wanted, and then toward the bottom, you can see the pattern layed flat. That is exactly how I cut out the steel before shaping. I did a weld at the forehead location where the two sides met, but if you do a decorative cross overlay as a reinforcement, you could just rivet it together. (I'd still want to tack weld it, personally).

All I used was...
-A sharpie to mark the pattern
-A 4" angle grinder with a cutt-off wheel to cut the blank from sheet steel.
-A grinder wheel on the 4" to remove the burrs.
-3 lb sledge with the head ground to a more round shape, and an oak stump with a slight depression in it to shape.
-A drill to drill the mounting holes at the ears.
-A welder to join the sides of the forehead to a center seam.

There was a lot of back and forth: holding it up to the helm, and then putting it back on the stump to shape. The 3 lb. sledge wore me out. If I did it again, I'd use something a bit lighter. (I'm not an armorer nor fight much, so a 3lb. might be just fine for most people).
-Cian

Gerhard von Liebau · Post by **Gerhard von Liebau** » Wed Jun 16, 2010 4:05 pm

InsaneIrish wrote:I believe the second to be artistic speculation. Not based on a real example.

The second image is actually from a rubbing of a brass of Ralph Stafford, and comes from the same tomb as the first image, which is of course depicting Sir Hugh Hastings (as mentioned). Both of the images in the orignal post are based on brasses. Finally, I've thrown in an image of Thomas Beauchamp, the Earl of Warwick. His brass shows a similarly shaped visor. All three of these images date to the 1340s. Images courtesy historiclife.com.

Sir Hugh Hastings

Ralph Stafford

Thomas Beauchamp

-Gregory

RandallMoffett · Post by **RandallMoffett** » Thu Jun 17, 2010 2:02 pm

Graham,

As far as I know there is no 'formal' term for this type of visor, in period and today. In period a visor is just a visor. Sometimes I have seen visors related to regions and countries in period though.

Today when they are by some described as shovel or keel faced visor. I am not sure how I like these terms. To me this visor is simply a carry over from the visored great helm, having itself developed from the earlier fixed visor version.

Arg,

I think Cian's instructions are good so give it a go. If you have any questions please let us know.

RPM

Graham Ashford · Post by **Graham Ashford** » Fri Jun 18, 2010 10:18 am

Randall

Thanks for the reply, it might be the lack of sleep I have had coming through, but I can't seem to find any originals or even drawings for originals anywhere ... do you know where I might be able to see a few (online) to make a quick study of them?

All the best

Graham

RandallMoffett · Post by **RandallMoffett** » Fri Jun 18, 2010 5:29 pm

Sure. I have mentioned these ones a great deal but really they are a great source for armour of the 1320s and 1330s. The Taymouth Hours (Yates Thompson 13 at the BL).

Here is one I really like but is a bit different than mine as it is more complex and mine more simple. I did not make the neck lames but I have thought about doing it someday.

http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminated ... llID=28956

and another common one- Holkham Bible of 1326. You can see loads of helmets from this period in the Holkham. The one I focused on it at the left
and the visor on the far right but more simplified. In all honesty my helmet is more a collection of helmets in a similar style.

http://www.xlegio.ru/armies/diu/12(holkham).jpg

Sorry I cannot help more but I am away from home (still looking for work sadly)

RPM

Graham Ashford · Post by **Graham Ashford** » Sat Jun 19, 2010 5:49 am

Randall, sorry to hear that you are still on the hunt for work, I hope it picks up for you soon, I am sure you'd be a benefit pretty much wherever.

Just one last question about the visor, I don't suppose you have any idea when it started to phase out?

Also, thanks for the 'starter for ten', I will see if I can get some better images and hunt through the books you mentioned.

All the best

Graham

RandallMoffett · Post by **RandallMoffett** » Sun Jun 20, 2010 9:05 am

Sorry the Holkham link failed to come up. This one is better anyways

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bannockburn.jpg

It is hard to say when they begin to phase out but you see them in artwork in the 1360s still and maybe a few in the 1370s but this is specifically England. I'd have to look at more artwork to make a comment on that.
My guess is that they get replaced by the pignose/face bascinet visor. I is most common in English artwork 1330-1350, but you se it from maybe 1300/1310 to 1360.

RPM