We had a new person come to our fighter practice today. She topped out at about 5' -- in thick-soled shoes -- and probably weighed 100lbs tos, making her lighter than my full armour bag.
Now, she did an excellent job, and displayed more heart than any five of the last few newbies we've had come to practice. Not to mention the fact that, having studied kendo, she actually managed to get a few good shots in with the bastard sword. I'm am going to do everything in my power to encourage her to participate in the future.
Nevertheless, I have to admit that some part of me kind of choked up when I fought her. I think I am possibly one of the least chauvinistic persons on this island; even so, I was terrified of breaking her.
Has this happened to anyone else?
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The defining characteristic of fanaticism is the inability to understand why everyone else is not a fanatic.
Scarily small fighters
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Templar Bob/De Tyre
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Several years ago, I fought at a demo where one of the bouts I drew was a local lady who is currently married to a frequent poster on the Archive. Back then, she barely topped the scale at 100 pounds, but had tremendous heart. She was also a fierce competitor.
As we engaged, she was stepping into a stance in preparation for firing a shot. I led off with a "J-hook" shot, designed to move under and behind my opponent's shield and catch them on the hip. Not such a big deal with a sword, but a kill with a mace in SCA combat.
She stepped into the blow (I believe to get a better shot at me), and the length of the mace caught her in a line up the rear of her thigh. She dropped like a puppet with its strings cut, and in a great deal of pain. I thought I'd broken her leg...she couldn't bear any weight on it at all.
Needless to say, I had no further interest in the demo after that.
It turned out later that I'd given this lady a bad bone bruise to the hip and thigh. As I recall, she had about two days of discomfort. And to this day, I felt like a total heel.
This underscored for me the old SCA saw of "We're not here to hurt people...merely to kill them". We only need to hit our opponents hard enough to register a clean, unobstructed blow that they both acknowledge. There is no place for blow force that can permanently injure someone with whom you're having a "friendly contest at arms".
Many people will disagree with me on this point---and will remind me that this is the reason we all sign waivers. But the risk we each undertake is with the understanding that we all have the same sense of fair-play. Further, that we're not going into a list with something to prove.
In speaking for myself, <u>I</u> don't want to be responsible for someone I'm playing with on the field to have a lengthy hospital stay (or worse) because of a need to win at all costs or in a misguided attempt to "prove myself". Because ultimately, it <u>is</u> just a game. And we all need to play by the same rules.
Respectfully submitted,
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Robert Coleman, Jr.
The Noble Companie and Order of St. Maurice
<B>Those who beat their swords into plowshares end up plowing for those who don't.
Remember: In Living History/Reinactment, Real Life is the Great Leveler of Man.</B>
As we engaged, she was stepping into a stance in preparation for firing a shot. I led off with a "J-hook" shot, designed to move under and behind my opponent's shield and catch them on the hip. Not such a big deal with a sword, but a kill with a mace in SCA combat.
She stepped into the blow (I believe to get a better shot at me), and the length of the mace caught her in a line up the rear of her thigh. She dropped like a puppet with its strings cut, and in a great deal of pain. I thought I'd broken her leg...she couldn't bear any weight on it at all.
Needless to say, I had no further interest in the demo after that.
It turned out later that I'd given this lady a bad bone bruise to the hip and thigh. As I recall, she had about two days of discomfort. And to this day, I felt like a total heel.
This underscored for me the old SCA saw of "We're not here to hurt people...merely to kill them". We only need to hit our opponents hard enough to register a clean, unobstructed blow that they both acknowledge. There is no place for blow force that can permanently injure someone with whom you're having a "friendly contest at arms".
Many people will disagree with me on this point---and will remind me that this is the reason we all sign waivers. But the risk we each undertake is with the understanding that we all have the same sense of fair-play. Further, that we're not going into a list with something to prove.
In speaking for myself, <u>I</u> don't want to be responsible for someone I'm playing with on the field to have a lengthy hospital stay (or worse) because of a need to win at all costs or in a misguided attempt to "prove myself". Because ultimately, it <u>is</u> just a game. And we all need to play by the same rules.
Respectfully submitted,
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Robert Coleman, Jr.
The Noble Companie and Order of St. Maurice
<B>Those who beat their swords into plowshares end up plowing for those who don't.
Remember: In Living History/Reinactment, Real Life is the Great Leveler of Man.</B>
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SyrRhys
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I feel the same discomfort quite often. There are, in my opinion, people who just shouldn't be fighting, and it sorrows me when I see things like this. People need to learn that this game just isn't for everyone, and to reexamine thier reasons for trying to participate. In particular, very tiny people need to think about how their delicacy causes potential problems for regular fighters, who find themselves in the unreasonable position of having to be super careful of these folks, and who would end up getting the blame for "breaking" the small fighter, when really it was the small fighter who took the risk and was at fault.
Having said that, however, do no misinterpret "shouldn't fight" with "may not fight"; I believe that anyone has the legal right to fight who can do so.
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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"
Having said that, however, do no misinterpret "shouldn't fight" with "may not fight"; I believe that anyone has the legal right to fight who can do so.
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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"
I am 5ft 6inchs I weight about 185.
When I fought as a Pro I fought at 130 pounds.
My sparring partners were Brad Hefton, Rick Ruffus, and Rob Townsley. (Form 285 to 195)
They had no problems pounding the shit out of me. Most of my career success I owe to those poundings.
On the other side I always feel bad sparring someone smaller? (Weird huh?)
My two cents Khann
When I fought as a Pro I fought at 130 pounds.
My sparring partners were Brad Hefton, Rick Ruffus, and Rob Townsley. (Form 285 to 195)
They had no problems pounding the shit out of me. Most of my career success I owe to those poundings.
On the other side I always feel bad sparring someone smaller? (Weird huh?)
My two cents Khann
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FrauHirsch
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I think that is one of the reasons that heavy combat was set to 18 in Caid years ago. We had one lady fighter come out that was maybe 80 lbs strapping wet and just turned 16... The thought of her war fighting was pretty scary, especially the liability issue should she get permanently injured. Try convincing a jury that allowing an 80lb 16 yr old girl fighting with 350+ lb adult men with another 80 lbs of armor on is the minor's fault...
I am short, but have never been that "breakable" looking, though I've seen both male and female fighters that are in that category. Most of the time, their biggest problem is learning how to hit hard enough. If you are small enough, even throwing all your body behind it may not be enough. However, I've found a number of tiny fighters who have overcome this problem, so its not a good idea to make assumptions.
My recommendation is not to hit harder or lighter, but hit and expect a normal telling blow. I feel people should NOT recalibrate based on size (though I have found that some excessively large/padded people occasionally need a harder hit sometimes).
A problem I've seen is people making the assumption that because someone is small they couldn't possibly hit hard enough. Take for instance the time I knocked a 6'5" ish 300+ lb guy out with a wrap and when he came too I apologized of course, but he denied that I could have done that, even when corrected by the marshal standing 4' from us, he ran off looking "for that big guy who hit him from behind."
*sigh*
If they are 18, they will decide if they are up to it or not. If they are under 18, I'd have a talk with the parents and discourage it until they are legal adults.
-Juliana
I am short, but have never been that "breakable" looking, though I've seen both male and female fighters that are in that category. Most of the time, their biggest problem is learning how to hit hard enough. If you are small enough, even throwing all your body behind it may not be enough. However, I've found a number of tiny fighters who have overcome this problem, so its not a good idea to make assumptions.
My recommendation is not to hit harder or lighter, but hit and expect a normal telling blow. I feel people should NOT recalibrate based on size (though I have found that some excessively large/padded people occasionally need a harder hit sometimes).
A problem I've seen is people making the assumption that because someone is small they couldn't possibly hit hard enough. Take for instance the time I knocked a 6'5" ish 300+ lb guy out with a wrap and when he came too I apologized of course, but he denied that I could have done that, even when corrected by the marshal standing 4' from us, he ran off looking "for that big guy who hit him from behind."
*sigh*
If they are 18, they will decide if they are up to it or not. If they are under 18, I'd have a talk with the parents and discourage it until they are legal adults.
-Juliana
One of Kaffa's fighters is a small scary lady, all of 5" or so, maybe 100, and true fighter spirit. I have physically flung her with a polearm shot, and she bounces right back up. She gets in your face, not because she needs to reach you, but because she likes it. We call her our Psycho Chihuahua. And, damn it, we're losing her to Antir!
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Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"
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Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"
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Morgan
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I've flung 200 pound fighters with a pole arm...it's technique.
I have a squire sister who's not very big. She's tough. I've met tiny tough women fighters. They know their risks, they fight with heart, and I'm proud to share the field with them. We've got a guy who occasionally shows up at our baronial practice. He's around 6', well over 200 pounds, and cries like a baby if you hit him.
Sure, they're both exceptions to the rule. But they illustrate that every individualmust be judged on their own merits and limitations.
I have a squire sister who's not very big. She's tough. I've met tiny tough women fighters. They know their risks, they fight with heart, and I'm proud to share the field with them. We've got a guy who occasionally shows up at our baronial practice. He's around 6', well over 200 pounds, and cries like a baby if you hit him.
Sure, they're both exceptions to the rule. But they illustrate that every individualmust be judged on their own merits and limitations.
Well, the good news is that, although she is tiny by SCA standards, she is only on the small side by those of Avalon's Japanese fighters. Frankly, of the six new people who have expressed interest in coming to fighter practice, the largest was maybe 5'6". In the past five years, I think that there was only one Japanese fighter who topped 6'... and he didn't stay on for any time at all, and didn't have have the heart that this woman displayed.
Like I said, if she decides to stay in the game, we'll do everything we can to support her. I think it will just take some time for my heart to stop cringing when we fight.
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The defining characteristic of fanaticism is the inability to understand why everyone else is not a fanatic.
Like I said, if she decides to stay in the game, we'll do everything we can to support her. I think it will just take some time for my heart to stop cringing when we fight.
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The defining characteristic of fanaticism is the inability to understand why everyone else is not a fanatic.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Aaron:
[BBut, then the problem is what to do with the NEXT small, cute, female fighter.
Really, I don’t have any good advice.
-Aaron[/B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Visit/move to Utah?
[BBut, then the problem is what to do with the NEXT small, cute, female fighter.
Really, I don’t have any good advice.
-Aaron[/B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Visit/move to Utah?
Actually, armouring her up was something of a group effort. The amazing thing is just how well the worked out:
Your pinhead greathelm
Your travel arms
My pauldrons
Grant's breastplate
Corey's padded legs (I couldn't believe that we could actually get a set of legs to fit her; your travel legs were _much_ too long).
Robert's Half-gauntlets
All said and done, she was more period looking that 90% of SCA practices, if you will forgive the greathelm with the breastplate.
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The defining characteristic of fanaticism is the inability to understand why everyone else is not a fanatic.
Your pinhead greathelm
Your travel arms
My pauldrons
Grant's breastplate
Corey's padded legs (I couldn't believe that we could actually get a set of legs to fit her; your travel legs were _much_ too long).
Robert's Half-gauntlets
All said and done, she was more period looking that 90% of SCA practices, if you will forgive the greathelm with the breastplate.
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The defining characteristic of fanaticism is the inability to understand why everyone else is not a fanatic.
I fought a 60+ year old woman once. Once.
She had made her own helmet and Coat of plates, and borrowed enough other armor to get on the field. She told me once that her goal was to make a suit of armor and take the field one time so that she could tell people "I can do this, YOU can do this".
No-one in our shire would fight her, but when I saw her on the field in all that armor I couldnt turn her down. I have never been so nervous fighting someone in 12 years of SCA fighting.
The look on her face when it was over was worth it, however... she was SO proud to have done it.
I agree, SCA fighting is not for everyone. But thats a decision that everyone needs to make for themselves.
She had made her own helmet and Coat of plates, and borrowed enough other armor to get on the field. She told me once that her goal was to make a suit of armor and take the field one time so that she could tell people "I can do this, YOU can do this".
No-one in our shire would fight her, but when I saw her on the field in all that armor I couldnt turn her down. I have never been so nervous fighting someone in 12 years of SCA fighting.
The look on her face when it was over was worth it, however... she was SO proud to have done it.
I agree, SCA fighting is not for everyone. But thats a decision that everyone needs to make for themselves.
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David deKunstenaar
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Regardless of gender, I think it is up to the individual to take responsibility for their own actions. I refuse to feel guilty if someone comes out on the field poorly armored because they can not handle the weight, or have not taken the time to build or aquire it. Training a new fighter at a fighter practice is another matter, and great care should be given to work at a speed that teaches, and not use the individual as a pell. One should also discourage trainees from rushing to participate before they areready and fully aware of the risk. If someone is not ready to assume the risk of the sport, or is incapable of doing so, then they have no right to expect others to dumbdown to their level.
As for female fighters, I think it is an insult to those who, like their male counterparts, taken the time to train and obtain proper kits to be treated like china dolls in the list. There are far to many that have proven that they can hold their own toe to toe with Duke Lottatons.
(On the other side of the coin) I think that, regardless of gender, it is also disgraceful to intentionally harm others when one obviously has the upper hand.
To this issue, if she is 80 to 100 pounds, and can not carry herself in arms, then she needs to continue her training until she can. I would not assume that because of her size this is the case, rather if I came across her on the list I would assume that she has trained and understands the rules of the list, which include getting hit. Since I never start out with a rhino killer shot, she will be as safe as anyone else should I land the shot and she is properly prepared.
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Baron Sir David deKunstenaar, Midrealm
As for female fighters, I think it is an insult to those who, like their male counterparts, taken the time to train and obtain proper kits to be treated like china dolls in the list. There are far to many that have proven that they can hold their own toe to toe with Duke Lottatons.
(On the other side of the coin) I think that, regardless of gender, it is also disgraceful to intentionally harm others when one obviously has the upper hand.
To this issue, if she is 80 to 100 pounds, and can not carry herself in arms, then she needs to continue her training until she can. I would not assume that because of her size this is the case, rather if I came across her on the list I would assume that she has trained and understands the rules of the list, which include getting hit. Since I never start out with a rhino killer shot, she will be as safe as anyone else should I land the shot and she is properly prepared.
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Baron Sir David deKunstenaar, Midrealm
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olaf haraldson
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My sensei for jujitsu was recently telling me about the time he spent training in Japan. He said it was common for the visiting students to be faced off with little old men.
Man from the UK, at 6'5" and 300lbs (mostly muscle) was defeated by 1 finger and 1 open handed push delivered by a 5'0" 120lb 70 year old man.
My point is this: skill is irrevelant to size. Anyone's body can be trained to withstand punishment or to dish it out. Perhaps very small people start lower, but their end game is the same as everyone elses.
Man from the UK, at 6'5" and 300lbs (mostly muscle) was defeated by 1 finger and 1 open handed push delivered by a 5'0" 120lb 70 year old man.
My point is this: skill is irrevelant to size. Anyone's body can be trained to withstand punishment or to dish it out. Perhaps very small people start lower, but their end game is the same as everyone elses.
Edwin,
While anecdotal evidence like yours is appealing, the bulk of my SCA experience substantiates Noe's concerns.
A cardinal rule of combat is that, all things being equal, the larger opponent has the advantage. In order to offset this, the smaller combatant must compensate (create an inequality) with either greater physical characteristics (speed/agility) or skill.
The vast majority of our people receive little or no training, and the bulk of that is limited to rudimentary execution. For new fighters, then, this places a great deal of importance on physical attributes. When we start considering the physical extremes -- particularly in light of the nominal training available -- then it is easy to understand that the smallest of the fighters is at a greater risk of injury from their equally unskilled, though much larger, brothers and sisters.
In my experience, the women who have shown an interest in fighting are, on the average, smaller and weaker then the men who want to play. This translates to more of the smallest fighters being female. I have seen several (4 or 5) sub-100lb new women fighters severely damaged over the years. This can sometimes be attributed to bad armor, and sometimes to bad defensive technique; but it is most often caused by the marginal control of power exhibited by their earnest, and equally unskilled, opponents.
We don’t have any frail, 70 year-old masters in the SCA – yet. More importantly, we don’t have a broad enough training program to imbue the small-but-fiery novices – both men and women – who are motivated enough to gear up and take a hit. Until we do, I fear their injuries will be in greater proportion than their beefier equals. Believing otherwise will continue to result in unfortunate scenarios as Noe suggests.
With regards… -cheval-
While anecdotal evidence like yours is appealing, the bulk of my SCA experience substantiates Noe's concerns.
A cardinal rule of combat is that, all things being equal, the larger opponent has the advantage. In order to offset this, the smaller combatant must compensate (create an inequality) with either greater physical characteristics (speed/agility) or skill.
The vast majority of our people receive little or no training, and the bulk of that is limited to rudimentary execution. For new fighters, then, this places a great deal of importance on physical attributes. When we start considering the physical extremes -- particularly in light of the nominal training available -- then it is easy to understand that the smallest of the fighters is at a greater risk of injury from their equally unskilled, though much larger, brothers and sisters.
In my experience, the women who have shown an interest in fighting are, on the average, smaller and weaker then the men who want to play. This translates to more of the smallest fighters being female. I have seen several (4 or 5) sub-100lb new women fighters severely damaged over the years. This can sometimes be attributed to bad armor, and sometimes to bad defensive technique; but it is most often caused by the marginal control of power exhibited by their earnest, and equally unskilled, opponents.
We don’t have any frail, 70 year-old masters in the SCA – yet. More importantly, we don’t have a broad enough training program to imbue the small-but-fiery novices – both men and women – who are motivated enough to gear up and take a hit. Until we do, I fear their injuries will be in greater proportion than their beefier equals. Believing otherwise will continue to result in unfortunate scenarios as Noe suggests.
With regards… -cheval-
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Captain Jamie
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TB- While the shot hurt and was disabling for a short while it was no worse than missing the catch and getting hit by a parade rifle that has been flung into the air. As part of the rifle team for her school that was a common occurence/risk that was handled with the same heart that you have seen in her. You are faultless in this. The story gets funny at the hospital she went to to check for bone fracture. When asked how the injury happened she told the doctor that a mace had hit her. He looked funny at her and asked a few more questions and went away. He came back with more questions and a concern that not everything was being divulged because "chemical spray doesn't do this."! He had never heard of mace-the-warclub. She straigtened him out.
Rhys-what you have seen and what TB relates are not the same thing. This game is for her and when she isn't bearing my children she pursues it with vigor. Yes she got hurt and more than an "owwie" in this case. She did not blame anybody for the injury except herself for being to slow on the block. Her reason for fighting is that she likes it. Do you really think anything more is neccessary?
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Captain Jamie-a marvellous valorous gentleman, that is certain
Rhys-what you have seen and what TB relates are not the same thing. This game is for her and when she isn't bearing my children she pursues it with vigor. Yes she got hurt and more than an "owwie" in this case. She did not blame anybody for the injury except herself for being to slow on the block. Her reason for fighting is that she likes it. Do you really think anything more is neccessary?
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Captain Jamie-a marvellous valorous gentleman, that is certain
With any entry level person in any sport you dont throw them to the wolves. In rock climbing you teach them the ropes by starting with knots and simple traversing. You dont take them to Elcapitan for a multiple day climb. A new warrior, weather man, woman or youth (should) get some training before they ever get in armor. Once they are in armor its up to the seasoned combatants to bring them up to speed with control and patience. Dos it hurt an experienced warrior to go out and work with a new participant at a slower speed and with less force (but proper placement)than they would battling Duke So And So. Dos a warrior's ego (manhood) shrivel up at the thought of battling at less than their best. I'm thankful that for a short time our area had one of the few female knights in the society. I learned more about how to think about others than I did about fighting technique. As individuals we will never be equal. We cant be we are each variables with different aptitudes and abilities. My wife is smarted than I am. I am not her equal in intelect, but we work together and share ideas on as equal beings. I am not a knight (and probobly wont ever be), but on the field of battle I am given equal oppretunity to prove myself. That is all anyone has the want or right to, big or small.
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ironmongermisc
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Both my Apprentice and my new to the SCA are both about 5' tall, stetching, and 100lbs,
Izzy is not scared, as she runs up and jumps on bigger fighters, and has tons of stuffed toy taco Bell toys,,she throws shots with her hips as she learned from the IronRose handbook for female fighters
I highly reccomend that book to any fighter, male or female, but female especially.
Izzy is not scared, as she runs up and jumps on bigger fighters, and has tons of stuffed toy taco Bell toys,,she throws shots with her hips as she learned from the IronRose handbook for female fighters
I highly reccomend that book to any fighter, male or female, but female especially.
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Tom Knighton
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When I first got started in the SCA, I was put into the armor of a fighter who was about the same size as me and I fought one of the experienced fighters in the shire. I fought him, but he basically just blocked. It let me get a feel for it without anyone worrying about hurting me. I like this approach.
As time went on, the other fighters began to slip more and more into their usual fighting modes. The first day I went home with a bruise was the day I realized that everyone felt they couldn't "hold back" on me. Talk about a rush
As for small female fighters, we have a lady knight here in Meridies who has put a whoopin on many of us. Size doesn't matter as much as skill. Teach someone well and they will be fine no matter what.
Bran
[This message has been edited by Bran Mac Scandlan (edited 05-13-2002).]
As time went on, the other fighters began to slip more and more into their usual fighting modes. The first day I went home with a bruise was the day I realized that everyone felt they couldn't "hold back" on me. Talk about a rush
As for small female fighters, we have a lady knight here in Meridies who has put a whoopin on many of us. Size doesn't matter as much as skill. Teach someone well and they will be fine no matter what.
Bran
[This message has been edited by Bran Mac Scandlan (edited 05-13-2002).]
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Guest
One thing that's not being considered here is that the entire political and social structure of Scadia is based on ones fighting ability. Laurels and Pelicans are all very nice, of course, but their talents do not make them into kings or dukes. In the great tripart division of medieval society; those who fight, those who pray, and those who work; the P & L class sort of slide into the third.
Therefore, Scadians with a craving for fame, power, political advancement, high social recognition, are strongly motivated to fight if they can, or maybe even if they can't. You don't get to be king by cooking, or carving wood, or keeping a well behaved balance sheet!
The exception, of course, is the position of Consort, but I wouldn't touch that with a ten foot battle lance.
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Full time civil servant, part time blacksmith, and seasonal Viking ship captain.
Visit your National Parks: www.nps.gov
Go viking: www.wam.umd.edu/~eowyn/Longship/
Hit hot iron: www.anvilfire.com
Therefore, Scadians with a craving for fame, power, political advancement, high social recognition, are strongly motivated to fight if they can, or maybe even if they can't. You don't get to be king by cooking, or carving wood, or keeping a well behaved balance sheet!
The exception, of course, is the position of Consort, but I wouldn't touch that with a ten foot battle lance.
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Full time civil servant, part time blacksmith, and seasonal Viking ship captain.
Visit your National Parks: www.nps.gov
Go viking: www.wam.umd.edu/~eowyn/Longship/
Hit hot iron: www.anvilfire.com
Cap'n Atli.
..One thing that's not being considered here is that the entire political and social structure of Scadia is based on ones fighting ability...
eL Capt I would not say the entire but our Kings do give us something to talk about. Our kings have some power they can tell us to go away for 6 mths, not give us that a boys etc, but only for 6 mths. Then another goober will be in charge. And the bigger goobers with get songs written about them.
..One thing that's not being considered here is that the entire political and social structure of Scadia is based on ones fighting ability...
eL Capt I would not say the entire but our Kings do give us something to talk about. Our kings have some power they can tell us to go away for 6 mths, not give us that a boys etc, but only for 6 mths. Then another goober will be in charge. And the bigger goobers with get songs written about them.
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Constancius
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I don't care what the size of the person is, I'll fight them. I don't care whether their male or female, I'll fight them. In my opinion, if they are armoured up and standing on the list field, then they are ready to fight and understand the risks. There can be no other way to look at it Unless you are teaching someone the art.
Don't hold back, but don't bash their brains out of their head either.
Fight them all the same way, whether their big or small, short or tall, male or female. If their on the field in armour their your brother or sister in arms and as such deserve the respect of getting a good fight.
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Constancius of Lincolnshire
animis corporibusque
Don't hold back, but don't bash their brains out of their head either.
Fight them all the same way, whether their big or small, short or tall, male or female. If their on the field in armour their your brother or sister in arms and as such deserve the respect of getting a good fight.
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Constancius of Lincolnshire
animis corporibusque
Constancius,
I don't think anyone is saying they shouldn't fight. The question is, are they at signficantly greater risk?
Jade of Starfall tells a great story of a time when, at Pennsic, he fought a pick-up with one duke notorious for accepting only the heaviest of blows. Jade is no light hitter, so he upped the wattage to meet his opponent's expectations. When they were finished, another, less-notorious duke (known more for his ego than his calibration) opposed Jade. Jade had not quite adjusted to his new opponent's expectations, and after the third successive nuclear blow, said duke stepped back, threw off his helm, shouted "OK, you -CAN- hit me, already!!", and stormed off the field.
While I can laugh at this exchange (knowing all three personalities involved), how would this have turned out if the next opponent had not been an over-inflated duke, but someone smaller and without the 'meat' to absorb an attack like this? And while I'm not suggesting that Jade might not have recognized the difference and changed his calibration in time, what about the far less experienced -- and controlled -- lineman in a melee who is already 'amped up' and doesn't differentiate at all? Do you believe a smaller opponent is really only at the same level of risk of their larger teammates?
As noted, this is not about desire, or even the ability of a talented fighter to succeed regardless of size or gender. I think this is much more about the risk that new, smaller fighters are exposed to. In the absence of weight classes (which I oppose) or a more complete training program (which I strongly support), their injury rate will continue to be much higher than the average.
With respect… -c-
I don't think anyone is saying they shouldn't fight. The question is, are they at signficantly greater risk?
Jade of Starfall tells a great story of a time when, at Pennsic, he fought a pick-up with one duke notorious for accepting only the heaviest of blows. Jade is no light hitter, so he upped the wattage to meet his opponent's expectations. When they were finished, another, less-notorious duke (known more for his ego than his calibration) opposed Jade. Jade had not quite adjusted to his new opponent's expectations, and after the third successive nuclear blow, said duke stepped back, threw off his helm, shouted "OK, you -CAN- hit me, already!!", and stormed off the field.
While I can laugh at this exchange (knowing all three personalities involved), how would this have turned out if the next opponent had not been an over-inflated duke, but someone smaller and without the 'meat' to absorb an attack like this? And while I'm not suggesting that Jade might not have recognized the difference and changed his calibration in time, what about the far less experienced -- and controlled -- lineman in a melee who is already 'amped up' and doesn't differentiate at all? Do you believe a smaller opponent is really only at the same level of risk of their larger teammates?
As noted, this is not about desire, or even the ability of a talented fighter to succeed regardless of size or gender. I think this is much more about the risk that new, smaller fighters are exposed to. In the absence of weight classes (which I oppose) or a more complete training program (which I strongly support), their injury rate will continue to be much higher than the average.
With respect… -c-
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sebastian
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Correct me if I am wrong...
Isn't Her Royal Majesty of Calontir and KSCA a bit on the wee side?
I seem to remember looking over her head, and I'm only 5'8".
Seems to me that we have had a steady incline of big beefy types to the list field, while the flow of smaller folks has declined.
Smaller folks just need a different style of fighting. The problem is that they are getting trained by semi-static, brute force fighters (no offense guys) and the style doesn't suit them.
I like seeing short people play. Especially when their winning.
Isn't Her Royal Majesty of Calontir and KSCA a bit on the wee side?
I seem to remember looking over her head, and I'm only 5'8".
Seems to me that we have had a steady incline of big beefy types to the list field, while the flow of smaller folks has declined.
Smaller folks just need a different style of fighting. The problem is that they are getting trained by semi-static, brute force fighters (no offense guys) and the style doesn't suit them.
I like seeing short people play. Especially when their winning.
Here's my take on it:
1) There have been people of all frame sizes, huge to tiny, fighting in the SCA since it's inception more than 30 years ago. In my eleven years of fighting (creak...) I have seen many small and tiny fighters. Let's take it as a given that we've had a pretty good sample set of small fighters in the SCA.
2) Historically, SCA fighting has been pretty darn safe. Injuries requiring an ambulance or hospital visit are pretty darn rare, and IMR no one has ever died from an injury incurred fighting. I don't think you can say that about golf, horseshoes, or badmitton(!).
3) By 1) and 2) we can say that SCA fighting has also historically been pretty safe for small or tiny people - Therefore, if these folks are getting injured more frequently, something has changed. Some possibilities are:
a) Small people are getting more fragile...nah, not really.
b) Small people are more poorly armored - maybe, but I'm not seeing it.
c) People are hitting small people harder - hard to say, but disturbing if true. Or, people are hitting everybody harder, and small people with lighter frames are the "canaries in the coal mine". If this trend towards heavier hitting continues, I'd expect the mid-sized people to start getting injured more frequently next.
- Kyle
1) There have been people of all frame sizes, huge to tiny, fighting in the SCA since it's inception more than 30 years ago. In my eleven years of fighting (creak...) I have seen many small and tiny fighters. Let's take it as a given that we've had a pretty good sample set of small fighters in the SCA.
2) Historically, SCA fighting has been pretty darn safe. Injuries requiring an ambulance or hospital visit are pretty darn rare, and IMR no one has ever died from an injury incurred fighting. I don't think you can say that about golf, horseshoes, or badmitton(!).
3) By 1) and 2) we can say that SCA fighting has also historically been pretty safe for small or tiny people - Therefore, if these folks are getting injured more frequently, something has changed. Some possibilities are:
a) Small people are getting more fragile...nah, not really.
b) Small people are more poorly armored - maybe, but I'm not seeing it.
c) People are hitting small people harder - hard to say, but disturbing if true. Or, people are hitting everybody harder, and small people with lighter frames are the "canaries in the coal mine". If this trend towards heavier hitting continues, I'd expect the mid-sized people to start getting injured more frequently next.
- Kyle
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FrauHirsch
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kyle:
<B>
Therefore, if these folks are getting injured more frequently,
- Kyle</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I believe they've always been getting injured. Maybe more so long ago when places like Caid for instance had no vambrace requirement and a minimum of 1 lb per foot requirement on swords with no real max. People used to use more mass weapons.
I know of a number of folks who fight now, but would not fight 20 yrs ago due to injuries. Some were hurt (not seriously, but enough) right off and never came back.
I worry more about fighters that flinch. Some grow out of it, some don't.
I've met several guys that just were "brittle" and broke bones every couple months or so until they gave it up.
Being short is very different than being "scarily small". Anyone who's fought Sir Maythen or Lady Mary of Uffington will attest.
Juliana
<B>
Therefore, if these folks are getting injured more frequently,
- Kyle</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I believe they've always been getting injured. Maybe more so long ago when places like Caid for instance had no vambrace requirement and a minimum of 1 lb per foot requirement on swords with no real max. People used to use more mass weapons.
I know of a number of folks who fight now, but would not fight 20 yrs ago due to injuries. Some were hurt (not seriously, but enough) right off and never came back.
I worry more about fighters that flinch. Some grow out of it, some don't.
I've met several guys that just were "brittle" and broke bones every couple months or so until they gave it up.
Being short is very different than being "scarily small". Anyone who's fought Sir Maythen or Lady Mary of Uffington will attest.
Juliana
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Constancius
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cheval:
<B>Constancius,
I don't think anyone is saying they shouldn't fight. The question is, are they at signficantly greater risk?
-</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If a person steps onto the list field they had damned well better know the risks involved. If they don't then whoever is training them needs to be reported to the shire marshall, at the very least.
I'm sure that size does play a factor where risk to injury is involved. But, ultimately it's the persons choice whether or not to fight. I have never refused to fight a person because of their size, aside from being wrong in my opinion it's dishonorable. I'm not a knight, but I try to act as such, meaning I won't refuse a fight. However, make sure that you and your opponent are properly armoured. I've seen what shots can do to unarmoured body parts, or even not properly armoured parts.
Two things:
1: Size doesn't matter. Anyone can beat anyone at any giventime. That's what makes this art that we participate in so great.
2: Bash peoples heads in ; not their brains out.
Think about it.
------------------
Constancius of Lincolnshire
animis corporibusque
<B>Constancius,
I don't think anyone is saying they shouldn't fight. The question is, are they at signficantly greater risk?
-</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If a person steps onto the list field they had damned well better know the risks involved. If they don't then whoever is training them needs to be reported to the shire marshall, at the very least.
I'm sure that size does play a factor where risk to injury is involved. But, ultimately it's the persons choice whether or not to fight. I have never refused to fight a person because of their size, aside from being wrong in my opinion it's dishonorable. I'm not a knight, but I try to act as such, meaning I won't refuse a fight. However, make sure that you and your opponent are properly armoured. I've seen what shots can do to unarmoured body parts, or even not properly armoured parts.
Two things:
1: Size doesn't matter. Anyone can beat anyone at any giventime. That's what makes this art that we participate in so great.
2: Bash peoples heads in ; not their brains out.
Think about it. ------------------
Constancius of Lincolnshire
animis corporibusque
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Aidan Cambel
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Wow. Amazing.
I am not going to quote all the things I am going to reply to because it would just take to long.
I am a "scarily small fighter". Most every fighter in our kingdom can look straight over my head. I am 5'5" at best, 150 pounds now ( 135 when I started fighting). I fighting in a gambeson (sometimes maille) and a maciejowski-style helm, kidney belt, gamboised cuisses and required metal on elbows and knees, leather greaves. Not really *alot* of armour.
If any "scarily small" fighters were to be getting hurt, it would be me. I try to fight with the big guys when ever possible. Today, I have a couple of bruises from yesterdays practice - one left by HRH Duke Gareth, one by Sir Conal, one by Lord Caspar. You meridians know that these are some pretty big guys. If anyone was going to break me, it would be those guys.
To top it off, I have a somewhat medical condition that would put me at risk to borken bones - since birth I have had terrible allergies to milk. (not lactose intolerant, but allergy). So, all my life I have had to rely on calcium supplements. My point is, once again, if smaller fighters were getting "broken", it would be me. I personally worry more about being able to play to their level than the thought that they may hurt me.
In my group, we never throw armour on someone and go at it. Its usually 4 or 5 practices before we ever go "full speed", to make sure the person knows what they are doing, has a good feel for their armour, and is ready for the possibility of injury. I think we may have lost a potential fighter or two because we weren't ready to fight it out full speed when he was. But IMHO, thats ok. Patience is a big part of our game, and I feel if they rush themselves to fast they will be a danger to themselves on the field.
on armour - puleeeeeeeeeeeeeze. "some fighters need to be armoured beyond standards"????? No, not if they don't choose to be. If a smaller fighter doesn't feel he/she can safely carry the added weight of more armour then fine. They are not going to be safe if they are unable to move freely.
I think the thing we need to teach the new people is that this is a contact sport. period. Whether you play the sport-fighting way, or the historically accurate way, whether your game is SCA, AEMMA, light-sabers-r-us, doesn't matter - ITS STILL CONTACT. Whenever any two objects contact each other, there is a certain risk involved.
As far as new people are concerned - go easy on any new person the first few times. gauge them. Big or small doesn't matter. I am sure the biggest,baddest, super-duke has taken his share of painful shots. I suggest letting the new person, regardless of size, dictate the intensity. ( i know one guy that the first time he came to fighter practice, nearly took everyones heads of. He had 0 fear, 0 pain, and was ready to fight. took a while to get him to tone down some). If you are afraid that you might hurt this person, then my sincere, gut response would be to calibrate yourself.
In Service,
Aidan ( who didn't get the nickname "The Littlest Templar" for nothing )
I am not going to quote all the things I am going to reply to because it would just take to long.
I am a "scarily small fighter". Most every fighter in our kingdom can look straight over my head. I am 5'5" at best, 150 pounds now ( 135 when I started fighting). I fighting in a gambeson (sometimes maille) and a maciejowski-style helm, kidney belt, gamboised cuisses and required metal on elbows and knees, leather greaves. Not really *alot* of armour.
If any "scarily small" fighters were to be getting hurt, it would be me. I try to fight with the big guys when ever possible. Today, I have a couple of bruises from yesterdays practice - one left by HRH Duke Gareth, one by Sir Conal, one by Lord Caspar. You meridians know that these are some pretty big guys. If anyone was going to break me, it would be those guys.
To top it off, I have a somewhat medical condition that would put me at risk to borken bones - since birth I have had terrible allergies to milk. (not lactose intolerant, but allergy). So, all my life I have had to rely on calcium supplements. My point is, once again, if smaller fighters were getting "broken", it would be me. I personally worry more about being able to play to their level than the thought that they may hurt me.
In my group, we never throw armour on someone and go at it. Its usually 4 or 5 practices before we ever go "full speed", to make sure the person knows what they are doing, has a good feel for their armour, and is ready for the possibility of injury. I think we may have lost a potential fighter or two because we weren't ready to fight it out full speed when he was. But IMHO, thats ok. Patience is a big part of our game, and I feel if they rush themselves to fast they will be a danger to themselves on the field.
on armour - puleeeeeeeeeeeeeze. "some fighters need to be armoured beyond standards"????? No, not if they don't choose to be. If a smaller fighter doesn't feel he/she can safely carry the added weight of more armour then fine. They are not going to be safe if they are unable to move freely.
I think the thing we need to teach the new people is that this is a contact sport. period. Whether you play the sport-fighting way, or the historically accurate way, whether your game is SCA, AEMMA, light-sabers-r-us, doesn't matter - ITS STILL CONTACT. Whenever any two objects contact each other, there is a certain risk involved.
As far as new people are concerned - go easy on any new person the first few times. gauge them. Big or small doesn't matter. I am sure the biggest,baddest, super-duke has taken his share of painful shots. I suggest letting the new person, regardless of size, dictate the intensity. ( i know one guy that the first time he came to fighter practice, nearly took everyones heads of. He had 0 fear, 0 pain, and was ready to fight. took a while to get him to tone down some). If you are afraid that you might hurt this person, then my sincere, gut response would be to calibrate yourself.
In Service,
Aidan ( who didn't get the nickname "The Littlest Templar" for nothing
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Rev. George
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aidan: not that I subscribe toi this theory, but i wager part of your arguement will be attacked because we are merideans..."and everybody knows they hit lighter ther"
RE: armour minimums-- Anyone who wears only the minimum armour is a fool. i dont think you could pay me to put on a weight belt, skater knees and elbows, hockey gloves, and a 16 ga helm and get whacked.
-+G
RE: armour minimums-- Anyone who wears only the minimum armour is a fool. i dont think you could pay me to put on a weight belt, skater knees and elbows, hockey gloves, and a 16 ga helm and get whacked.
-+G
"If they don't then whoever is training them needs to be reported to the shire marshall, at the very least."
So....what if you tell/warn the person who's being trained, and they still wanna do whatever they want ANYWAY?
What's a marshall gonna do?
Hey, if you show an iota of competence, you're authorized, sad but true!
Myself, I authorized after fighting about 6 times.... I probably should have been told to wait a bit, but see my above statement.
ESPECIALLY when it's the 3 weeks before war and every kingdom wants every able (or in some cases not so able) body on the field.
There was a lady in my old shire who was very small.
She wanted to play, we said OK.
Everytime she got hit, she'd cry.
Everytime.
Someone got her the iron rose book, she read it, still, if you hit her, she cried.
Her form was OK, for a newbie, her defence was OK.
But she didn't deal well with the psychological aspect of it, and she was fragile.
Then she wanted to fight melees.....
Because I guess she thought that if she threw herself into the thick of it, she'd overcome whatever it was that was bothering her.
Oh, how very wrong she was.
She got broken.
Almost every damned time.
If you think SHE felt bad, imagine the guys who hit her.
And they didn't crank it up.
Remember, this is the SCA.
EVERYONE plays, no one sits.
Telling someone they gotta sit isn't PC.
It's much better to try and talk to someone EXTREMELY distraught because they think they've just seriously hurt someone who didn't really belong out on the field.
It's much better to put someone through THAT that having to force someone else to accept their limitations.
Because EVERYONE PLAYS and we can't risk not being PC, right folks?
(grin)
VvS
So....what if you tell/warn the person who's being trained, and they still wanna do whatever they want ANYWAY?
What's a marshall gonna do?
Hey, if you show an iota of competence, you're authorized, sad but true!
Myself, I authorized after fighting about 6 times.... I probably should have been told to wait a bit, but see my above statement.
ESPECIALLY when it's the 3 weeks before war and every kingdom wants every able (or in some cases not so able) body on the field.
There was a lady in my old shire who was very small.
She wanted to play, we said OK.
Everytime she got hit, she'd cry.
Everytime.
Someone got her the iron rose book, she read it, still, if you hit her, she cried.
Her form was OK, for a newbie, her defence was OK.
But she didn't deal well with the psychological aspect of it, and she was fragile.
Then she wanted to fight melees.....
Because I guess she thought that if she threw herself into the thick of it, she'd overcome whatever it was that was bothering her.
Oh, how very wrong she was.
She got broken.
Almost every damned time.
If you think SHE felt bad, imagine the guys who hit her.
And they didn't crank it up.
Remember, this is the SCA.
EVERYONE plays, no one sits.
Telling someone they gotta sit isn't PC.
It's much better to try and talk to someone EXTREMELY distraught because they think they've just seriously hurt someone who didn't really belong out on the field.
It's much better to put someone through THAT that having to force someone else to accept their limitations.
Because EVERYONE PLAYS and we can't risk not being PC, right folks?
(grin)
VvS