Forming an American National Team for Battle of the Nations

Brandr · Post by **Brandr** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:13 pm

As many of you have probably seen by now, in the Ukraine a medieval style tournament is being held between the teams of several countries and known by the name "Battle of the Nations". It happens that the organizers of this tournament would like an American team to join them.

Some of my friends and I believe that it would be enjoyable, exciting, and worthy to put a team together and join in the spectacle as the American Team. Being members of the Schola Saint George, we have started discussions on the forum on the website, http://www.scholasaintgeorge.org. Natalia, the International Coordinator for the Battle of the Nations, has joined us and is giving us information & guidance. We invite you come and join us in the formation of a team.

Come and be part of the American Team for Battle of the Nations!

Greenshield · Post by **Greenshield** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:01 pm

I'm interested.

Leo Medii · Post by **Leo Medii** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 9:57 pm

I like violence.

Nissan Maxima · Post by **Nissan Maxima** » Wed Jun 23, 2010 11:59 pm

My kit wouldn't fit in but otherwise I'm game. Maybe I can get something together.

Kilian_the_warlike · Post by **Kilian_the_warlike** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 12:31 am

Nissan Maxima wrote:My kit wouldn't fit in but otherwise I'm game. Maybe I can get something together.

What about the 16th century kit you have in the works?

Still a little late period, but its at least European.

J.G.Elmslie · Post by **J.G.Elmslie** » Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:24 am

I'm not american, but if you want rebated steel made for this... let me know, and I'd be willing to do it at reduced cost, if I get feedback from each of you on performance, durability, etc in return.

I'd consider it a pretty good baptism of fire for my design work to see if it can stand up to the hardest of abuses.

I do individual custom stuff, or could run off a batch of hilts so you're all matching. I normally work either on Armourclass stock blades, or with the steel heat-treated by Armourclass - either way, their rebated steel that has a reputation for durability and quality that I hope's even got over your side of the pond

(and that does'nt just include swords, I can also look at polearms, daggers, etc. )

Brandr · Post by **Brandr** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:05 am

Suzerain, PM Sent.
Greenshield, Email sent.
Leo Medii, Email sent.
Nissan, PM Sent. Email attempt failed.

If any one else is interested you may post here or email mail us at battleofthenations.teamUSA@gmail.com.

Jason AKA Brandr

owen matthew · Post by **owen matthew** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 11:51 am

I'd be interested, but the cost of a new and proper kit, and flying, are prohibitive to me.

My kits now revolve around hidden plastic and as little as I can get away with. Not functional for this I think.

David de Clermont · Post by **David de Clermont** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 1:24 pm

How soon are ya'll going to be putting this together? Man, I want in badly but my armour isn't up to snuff for rebated steel i.e. maille hauberk and such...

Brandr · Post by **Brandr** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 1:35 pm

We are still learning all the requirements Owen but it is likely that you may be right, however, that does not prevent you from supporting the national team or being a part of experience. There is going be a good bit planning & preparation stateside before hand and you thoughts and input would no doubt be helpful.

Jason

owen matthew · Post by **owen matthew** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 2:19 pm

Brandr, let me know what I can do, if it is in my power I will be glad to be a part of this.

Sander Marechal · Post by **Sander Marechal** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 6:33 pm

I wish you the best of luck, but I hope you plan to do a serious amount of training before you head off. Steel is quite different from rattan. Both to hit with and to get hit with

J.G.Elmslie · Post by **J.G.Elmslie** » Sat Jun 26, 2010 12:39 pm

Brandr, PM received, and replied to by email and on here...

given outages, if it did'nt get received, send me a poke and I'll resend.

brewer · Post by **brewer** » Sat Jun 26, 2010 1:27 pm

Suzerain wrote:I normally work either on Armourclass stock blades, or with the steel heat-treated by Armourclass - either way, their rebated steel that has a reputation for durability and quality that I hope's even got over your side of the pond

As the owner of two Armour Class swords, I can attest to the durability and overall awesome-ness of their reenactment blunts. I have these swords:

http://www.armourclass.co.uk/Data/Pages/17Century_8.htm

This sword has the lighter and shorter of the blunt blades. And:

http://www.armourclass.co.uk/Data/Pages/17Century_9.htm

This has a quite heavy blunt blade.

Let me put it like this: The light blade on the pikeman's tuck has broken Hanwei blades. The Mortuary hilted blade I cannot use except against other Armour Class or old Bailiff Forge blades, for it will mangle lighter reenactment blades as if it's an old lawnmower blade hammered flat.

Both have seen considerable use since I got them at TORM five years ago, and neither have any flaws - no nicks, no dangerous deformations. The steel does change shape when struck edge-to-edge, but only very slightly and in a non-dangerous way.

I recommend them HIGHLY. If SUZERAIN is working with their steel, you'll get a world-class-quality, safe blade.

Bob

argentangelgilbert · Post by **argentangelgilbert** » Sat Jun 26, 2010 1:52 pm

brandr

I am interested in participating in this tournament, email with all the pertinent info

regards,
gilbert

J.G.Elmslie · Post by **J.G.Elmslie** » Sat Jun 26, 2010 2:07 pm

brewer wrote:
As the owner of two Armour Class swords, I can attest to the durability and overall awesome-ness of their reenactment blunts. I have these swords:

http://www.armourclass.co.uk/Data/Pages/17Century_8.htm

This sword has the lighter and shorter of the blunt blades. And:

http://www.armourclass.co.uk/Data/Pages/17Century_9.htm

This has a quite heavy blunt blade.

Let me put it like this: The light blade on the pikeman's tuck has broken Hanwei blades. The Mortuary hilted blade I cannot use except against other Armour Class or old Bailiff Forge blades, for it will mangle lighter reenactment blades as if it's an old lawnmower blade hammered flat.

Both have seen considerable use since I got them at TORM five years ago, and neither have any flaws - no nicks, no dangerous deformations. The steel does change shape when struck edge-to-edge, but only very slightly and in a non-dangerous way.

I recommend them HIGHLY. If Saritor is working with their steel, you'll get a world-class-quality, safe blade.

Bob

Saritor?
*looks confused*

But it is fantastic to hear the views of others there confirming my own experiences - Ian and Jon really do make what I believe to be the most durable rebated blades for WMA/reenactment use anywhere in the world. I've used, or abused, Albion maestro sparring swords, Pavel Moc, Pavel Maryek, Lutel, Kovex-ars, Del tin, Hanwei, and a few other makers' stuff, and never found anything to beat armourclass.

the weirdest bit is, technically, the steel used, EN45, when heat-treated is'nt actually that great for sharps, being slightly soft at about 45rockwells as I recall - 5150/5160 spec carbon steel is better. But for combat where its going to be hit hard repeatedly (and more importantly, the risk of it being hit hard edge-on edge if its with people you dont have experience with!), well... in that application, it blows everyone else's products away. My own peices are only a few years old now, but I know plenty of armourclass swords, going back all the way to the very first diamond section longsword they made. 11-12 years old, still going strong, and the only reason its due to be retired by the guy is that I'm 90% complete on the work for its 1550's dated complex-hilted grandchild...).
Failures do happen of course, but it has universally been among the reenactors doing hard edge-on-edge stop blocks with lots of force, rather than WMA practicioners using deflections.

and Brewer, though the mortuary sword you linked to is a pretty terrifying beast in use, the best thing is, these are'nt overweight blades that are tough by dint of being made of steel girders The Hulk alone could swing; I pulled out an unmounted 38mm wide, 89cm (35 inch) longsword blade and weighed it last night, and it hits the scales at 740 grammes, (or 25 ounces.) any lighter, and they would blow away on a windy day.

I actually suspect that an oakeshott Type U (key-shaped) pommel and a minimalist cross might make it possible to make a sub-1200 gramme (2 1/2lb) longsword.

I'm currently a little worried that my weapons might be too light for the tournament's rules, and I'm trying to work out design solutions that'd allow extra weight, without ruining the handling and performance, going through a range of blade options ranging from their off-the shelf designs, to custom-cut ones specifically for the nations event...
Edit: since I typed that, I've reread the other thread, and seems Natalia has said there is no minimum, and accuracy is emphasised. Pending clarification, I'm a happy bunny regarding weight and associated handling characteristics

erm. I'll stop sidetracking the discussion, though

brewer · Post by **brewer** » Sat Jun 26, 2010 2:25 pm

D'oh! Edited to correct. :oops

Excellent point about my Mortuary hilt. Like you say, it's not a heavy sword at all! It's just that I don't trust it against anything less ... er ... terrifying. If my much lighter, shorter pikeman's tuck chews through lesser blades, I'm rather spooked as to what the more robust blade will do.

It'll sure as hell ring some poor schlub's bell in this tournament, though!

Bob

J.G.Elmslie · Post by **J.G.Elmslie** » Sat Jun 26, 2010 2:28 pm

brewer wrote:D'oh! Edited to correct.

ahhh. I was getting very confused there.
so it was just a name slip, there, Brandr.... Brewer, I mean.

Nissan Maxima · Post by **Nissan Maxima** » Sat Jun 26, 2010 2:42 pm

I am in. My old friend Sean of the Dunes wants in as well. I need to make a suitable kit.

Nissan Maxima · Post by **Nissan Maxima** » Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:45 pm

Where can I find the rules regarding what is legal in a kit?

Gaston de Vieuxchamps · Sun Jun 27, 2010 7:55 am

I also need to find out what I need to do for a kit.

G

Duke Icefalcon · Post by **Duke Icefalcon** » Sun Jun 27, 2010 8:02 am

If someone could post what is needed for the kit here, it might be helpful...

I got to fight in my first International Live Steel Tourney this fall and really enjoyed it. There were 7 tournies over the course of Saturday and Sunday, with melees and challenges in between. It is a bit different from SCA fighting. I had to get used to the punching and pommel strikes as well as the shin targetting.

I really did enjoy it though and the folks from the other countries were great. I especially like the Germans.

DukeAvery · Post by **DukeAvery** » Sun Jun 27, 2010 11:13 am

I showed my wife some of these fights on youtube and she didn't say no!

What about starting an American Division? I'd like to get or examine weapons copies on this side of the pond. I've been studying some of the video and I'm willing to offer tactical advice. A head throw, for example, is a common fight ender.

Regards

Avery

RoaK · Post by **RoaK** » Sun Jun 27, 2010 7:14 pm

There seems to be no thrusting in their fighting... am I seeing that right?

As far as armor standards go I think if you go hardcore mid 14th century to mid 15th century you should be spot on for their armor standards with only a few adjustments. I see guys with loose kettle hats and a bevor for face and throat protection in those you tube videos; that's pretty open at times.

The most common areas that seem to be hit are the head, shoulders and arms in their melees. Then it's shoving, bashing, throwing and grappling. You know, the stuff Nissan gets yelled at for doing in our gameâ€¦

It's good to see House Clovenshield is going to be represented in the USA team...

Lucan Dux · Post by **Lucan Dux** » Sun Jun 27, 2010 7:46 pm

Let me know what I need for equipment, I'm all in.

Avitoria_vidua · Post by **Avitoria_vidua** » Sun Jun 27, 2010 8:14 pm

I have no wish to be beaten by a rattan stick or a chunk of metal.
However, ... I would love to be a spectator or help in any way possible. It'd be a great excuse for a trip.

If you guys do get a team formed please let me know if I can help you with anything that could need hand stitching or embroidery. A banner perhaps? I may not be able to wield a pole axe, but I'm pretty good with smaller sharp objects.

Lucian Ro · Post by **Lucian Ro** » Sun Jun 27, 2010 10:02 pm

Dependent upon when we're shooting for I would like to attempt this.

DukeAvery · Post by **DukeAvery** » Sun Jun 27, 2010 10:46 pm

We need the real human translated rules and weapons construction details.

I see fights with no thrusting nor anything close, and others that look far more likely to result in a real and serious facial injury. I'm not interested in the latter, but that heavily armoured sca like fighting with grappling and metal weapons looks interesting. Most of these fights seem only moderately brutal in a fairly controlled manner. There are some crazy looking exchanges as well, but you don't see guys rolling on the ground after needing medical care. I think you may get to pick your level of pain. I think the construction details of the swords allowed matters as to whether I might try it. If I'm right the serious injury rate should be pretty low.

And I'd like to know if I can bring a basket hilted one. Would baton style weapons be allowed? A beatdown is what is called for and these swords aren't going to open plate, which I would wear in this and alot of it.

Just some random thoughts. I'm open to this, but not 'committed'. I bet it would be an crazy intense experience.

Regards

Avery

Brandr · Post by **Brandr** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:52 pm

Thanks for all the interest folks! If I have not sent you an email or a PM please send an email to battleofthenations.teamUSA@gmail.com and we will get you in the loop.

I will ask again about rules translations. I will see what I can do.

Thanks.

Jason

Nissan Maxima · Post by **Nissan Maxima** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:21 pm

I have begun building this.

Amanda M · Post by **Amanda M** » Mon Jun 28, 2010 9:23 pm

Darth Nissan.

Brandr · Post by **Brandr** » Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:41 pm

I have received more information from Natalia, the International Coordinator, about forming a team and participating in the event. On thing that the Battle of the Nations organizers would like to do is have a seminar here in the US to promote the event and to discuss rules, regulations, and combat styles. They have suggested a time around the end of August and beginning of September.
As for the rules and regulations, they are presently being translated. The first section Battle 1 on 1 has been completed. I have asked to be sent a copy of this information. When I receive this I will forward it to the interested parties. In my discussions with Natalia here is what she has said about the armor regulations,

As for armor - a good question you asked! The main principle is a full correspondence to their historical analogues; their expected appearance is widely known, so the authoritative select committee either accept the combatants' arms and armor (as well as household items, tents, clothes etc.) or reject them pointing out how to improve the items. For this reason (well, including this reason) the tryout selecting tourneys were held: the combatants were chosen not only according to their fighting skills but also to their correct appearance; to be more precise, each National team consists of the best fighters who won tryout tourneys but he exposed bad quality armor he was asked to improve these or those particular items. All the preparations for the first festival have served as a good encouragement for rethinking and improving the combatants' kit.

It appears at this time that historical accuracy of both the hard and soft kits are of primary importance. You should keep this in mind as you improve/upgrade your kit.

I would like to setup of a teleconference/video conference in the next two weeks or so to discuss things with interested parties.

If you would like to be part of the Battle of the Nations Team USA send an email to battleofthenations.teamUSA@gmail.com.

Thanks
Jason Willis

CiaranBlackrune · Post by **CiaranBlackrune** » Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:52 pm

This all looks frikkin fantastic! There's no way I could participate due to my lack of disposable income (not to mention my lack of height and muscle mass), but I could easily donate a couple of bux to the cause/team once it's formed. (If donations are needed that is.)

And that Darth Nissan rig looks awesome.

Leo Medii · Post by **Leo Medii** » Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:23 pm

I need weapons to train for this. Where can I get them?

A bunch of folks I know want to do this, but can't do the "team" part. They just want to fight with these rules and the victory conditions. They might be able to help folks train here.

Would the Albion line of blunted weapons work? Or is there a source they prefer?

Nissan Maxima · Post by **Nissan Maxima** » Tue Jun 29, 2010 11:34 pm

Leo Medii wrote:I need weapons to train for this. Where can I get them?

A bunch of folks I know want to do this, but can't do the "team" part. They just want to fight with these rules and the victory conditions. They might be able to help folks train here.

Would the Albion line of blunted weapons work? Or is there a source they prefer?

Leo, will you be at Talonvale? If so, lets talk about setting up training.