Move towards authenticity = Rhino?

Rainald · Post by **Rainald** » Fri Aug 09, 2002 9:54 pm

Like the title says, if you wear more armour than usual for your kingdom.... do you turn into a rhino according to the kingdom standards?

I am starting to see that problem emerging for me sometime soon. I wear more armour then anyone I have seen so far in Meridies. I have fought a lot a high caliber fighters
in the past couple of weeks and have some dents to prove it. However, keword here...have some dents to prove it.. in other words the armour works in absorbing force and spreading it out. I've only been hit 3 or so times that really got my attention... I go home after practice and notice a nice flat spot on my right vambrace but no corresponding bruise on the forearm. So where do you draw the line? I don't want to come across as a a**hole, but don't want to play a game of "tag, your it.

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Fri Aug 09, 2002 10:31 pm

I dunno. Back when I fought, I called just about anything I could hear, because I also wore "alot" of armour (14th century rig with coat of plates).

If we fought "to the pain" I wouldn't call much at all. I think you just have to figure out what a good blow feels/sounds like on your armour.

Steve

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Forth Armoury
Highly authentic, affordable riveted maille.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Aug 10, 2002 4:43 am

I wear a lot of armor myself, and i usually just call anything that hits me with enough force to make that distinctive wood on metal sound. Only issue i have with this is that i keep taking blows to my helm that onlookers(and my opponent) say were light, tippy, or that glanced off.

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Otto von Aachen
Kingdom of the Outlands, Canton of Hawks Hollow

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » Sat Aug 10, 2002 11:19 am

Well....

We've never met in person but I hope we get a chance to chat at Gulf Wars.

If you're getting hit i a way that dents your metal armour but doesn't bruise you under it and you're not calling it, I'll suggest you're calling too hard for Meridies. And probably for everywhere else. Unless your metal is REALLY REALLY thin cold rolled.

You may way to hook up with someone you know you can trust and get them to calibrate with you. Meridies is traditionally known as a lighter hitting kingdom. That doesn't mean everyone hits light and it doesn't mean they're all wimps or anything like that. I'm not suggesting anything negative. But if that stereotype is accurate, you should probably find someone to help you understand their general calibration.

Some people go to a lighter hitting area and they just keep on truckin' with what they've always done. They usually get a bad rep of some sort. It's really not fair, but that's they way it is. I wish you the best of luck. And if you find that it's really too light hitting, just look up some Ansteorrans and Atlantians to fight at Gulf Wars.

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"Be bold and mighty forces will come to your aid." -Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Morgan Buchanan
http://www.geocities.com/morgunnmac

[This message has been edited by Morgan (edited 08-11-2002).]

Stoffel · Post by **Stoffel** » Sat Aug 10, 2002 11:54 am

I know how you feel. I generally have to see the shot hit me to call it. Usually I will talk to the person I am fighting and explain to them the predicament. I just tell them that if I dont call what they thought was a good shot, to tell me.

IainMcClennan · Post by **IainMcClennan** » Sat Aug 10, 2002 12:09 pm

If you're getting hit i a way that dents your metal armour but doesn't bruise you under it and you're not calling it, I'll suggest you're calling too hard for Meridies. And probably for everywhere else. Unless your metal is REALLY REALLY think cold rolled.

Not necessarily, sometimes the denting is the reason the shot isn't called. I've been suprised at times to find dents in places I didn't remember being hit. All the energy gets used up moving the metal and there is none left for the body. I've walked off the field and found the cuff of my gauntlet crushed by a blow I never noticed. That's mostly the case for armour that sits away from the body, like breastplates.

I started fighting with 14ga cuisses and took anything I felt. Later I switched to garden hose "quilting" with my Mac Bible kit so I could judge blows. I've since gone back to the 14th century, and was afraid I'd have to go back to taking every leg shot, but my new legs are 18ga spring. I've found that with the lighter legs I get a bit of sting from a hard blow and can reasonably judge the force of what hits me.

Iain

Britehelm · Post by **Britehelm** » Sat Aug 10, 2002 1:15 pm

Wearing more armour does not make one a rhino. Not calling ones blows makes them a rhino. I wear more armour than most in Meridies and have never had a problem calling shots. You should calibrate with someone and try to adjust to calling on that level. I have a tendancy to call shots that are probably to light. If you beat my defense and show me you can do it again I will call it even if it is "light". Talk to people when you fight them. We are for the most part a very laid back kingdom. However, the last thing you want to do is become labled a rhino. It is a stigma that is very hard to shake. The shots that dented your armour,did you call them. If not, you may need to realy look at your calibration. I hope this helps and welcom to meridies!
In Service,
Sir Alexander Brighthelmston

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He conquers who endures.

Marvin · Post by **Marvin** » Sat Aug 10, 2002 1:28 pm

Dude, you ain't a rhino.

I'm consistantly the lightest hitting guy in our main circle of fighters. I've hit you wimpy and you've called it light. I've hit you hard (maybe once)and you called it good. I've hit you in between and most times you've called it just like your average Merdian. Don't sweat it - you've got the calibration down pretty good. I can't think of a single time I've expected you to call something and you haven't.

We had a discussion about this subject (not you - calibration) after we armored down, and generally agreed that we probably ought to pull our calibration up a notch or so. The present level is making us a tad lazy. Anything you want to add to the discussion would be welcomed.

As far as armor - we're slowly working our way towards better stuff. I expect you won't feel too out of place in a few months.

knoch · Post by **knoch** » Sat Aug 10, 2002 3:24 pm

When I am in my full kit. I feel like an M1 tank on the feild being serounded by Jeeps. I know that so I keep it in mind so I dont Rhino and hit hard an take light.

from knoch

Vebrand · Post by **Vebrand** » Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:27 pm

As Marvin said we had a talk about calibration. When you have a group of fighters that have been fighting each other so long as most of us have, then we tend to drop and take some light shots on each knowing we could have always hit harder. Bad habit and one we have talked about getting out of for a while.
You have been a welcome addition to our group and so far no one has had any problems we your recognition. Your armor is outstanding so keep doing what your doing.
Vebrand

Drake Orion · Post by **Drake Orion** » Sun Aug 11, 2002 1:04 am

I remember T- Bob telling a story where he charged a line (mace in hand) and before he was killed he hit the leader(a knight I think) Well Bob hit him three times snapping his head with every hit. The knight called, "LIGHT". Then the marshall tapped the knight on the shoulder and said, "Sir, that was a mace, thou is dead!"
I am not sure how it went from there, but I believe the knight ignored him and continued to fight while T-Bob laughed as he walked off the field.

Stoffel · Post by **Stoffel** » Sun Aug 11, 2002 9:25 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I started fighting with 14ga cuisses and took anything I felt. Later I switched to garden hose "quilting" with my Mac Bible kit so I could judge blows. I've since gone back to the 14th century, and was afraid I'd have to go back to taking every leg shot, but my new legs are 18ga spring. I've found that with the lighter legs I get a bit of sting from a hard blow and can reasonably judge the force of what hits me.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
garden hose quilting? That is ingenius... I'm going to have to try that!

When I am in my full kit. I feel like an M1 tank on the feild being serounded by Jeeps. I know that so I keep it in mind so I dont Rhino and hit hard an take light.

what a great description.

In my area, I kinda feel like the tank and everyone else light infantry.

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » Sun Aug 11, 2002 10:47 am

Ian: While what you say is true for a single shot incident, if you're CONSISTANTLY getting dented adn CONSISTANTLY not calling those shots, you need to work on something. It's on Ok excuse for a single shot. But if it's consistant, you WILL get a reputation.

Stoffel · Post by **Stoffel** » Sun Aug 11, 2002 9:36 pm

The main problem with not calling your shots because of lots of armour, is that unless you ask them if your not calling thier shots, generally most people dont say anything about it too you. They will talk behind your back about it, and you end up with the rhino title before you can really do anything about it. Thats why I make sure I explain to my opponent about me not feeling shots, so that they can confront me to my face instead of having it build up behind my back.

Brandr · Post by **Brandr** » Sun Aug 11, 2002 9:48 pm

Rainald,
I have to agree with what Marvin & Vebrand have already said. Your blow calling is just fine. You are making us hit you with a consistent level well within what I have found to be an average across Merdies over the years. Like Marvin said you aren't taking simple touches which is just fine.

Personally, I don't think I have ever hit you with a shot that I thought was good that you did not call. Excellent blow calling if you ask me.

Sorry about the dents in your armor. If you want you can come over to the house and fix it.

See you later this week,
Brandr

Connor McEldridge · Post by **Connor McEldridge** » Mon Aug 12, 2002 10:58 am

Sorry about the dents in your armor. If you want you can come over to the house and fix it.

See you later this week,
Brandr[/B][/QUOTE]

Like you put them there!!!!!!!!

Connor

Brandr · Post by **Brandr** » Tue Aug 13, 2002 12:39 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Connor McEldridge:

Like you put them there!!!!!!!!

Connor<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Never said I put them there. But I still am sorry the dents are present in such a beautiful set of armor.

Brandr

Connor McEldridge · Post by **Connor McEldridge** » Tue Aug 13, 2002 2:10 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Brandr:
 Never said I put them there. But I still am sorry the dents are present in such a beautiful set of armor.

Brandr<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Indeed it is a nice kit! Better the armor than him, though.
Connor

Connor McEldridge · Post by **Connor McEldridge** » Thu Aug 15, 2002 3:46 pm

On a more serious note, I for one have been wanting to up the calibrations in our area. Although I must admit that I don't want to be perceived as a 'rhino' either. Thing is, we cheapen our combat/technique by calling 'slappy/tinging' type shots. I think
a good stout blow should be called, not the tingy stuff.
Connor

Jean Paul de Sens · Post by **Jean Paul de Sens** » Thu Aug 15, 2002 5:47 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Connor McEldridge:
On a more serious note, I for one have been wanting to up the calibrations in our area. Although I must admit that I don't want to be perceived as a 'rhino' either. Thing is, we cheapen our combat/technique by calling 'slappy/tinging' type shots. I think
a good stout blow should be called, not the tingy stuff.
Connor<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ditto. My (and my friends) biggest hangup is the "Well we don't want to break our friends during practice". Which is true. But we don't want to allow our friends to think they've hit us with a good solid blow when they haven't. Tough line to walk.

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Thu Aug 15, 2002 11:46 pm

If you intentionally pull a blow to a sensitive area, I'll call it. If you use lousy technique, I see no reason to reward it.

Caspar · Post by **Caspar** » Fri Aug 16, 2002 8:11 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Connor McEldridge:
On a more serious note, I for one have been wanting to up the calibrations in our area. Although I must admit that I don't want to be perceived as a 'rhino' either. Thing is, we cheapen our combat/technique by calling 'slappy/tinging' type shots. I think
a good stout blow should be called, not the tingy stuff.
Connor<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The problem I see with this is defining 'slappy/tingy.' I have been told on a couple of occasions that a shot I have thrown was light,slappy etc., only to be assured by another fighter that the same blow was quite stout. Even within our kingdom there are subtle variations in calibration. Just as you would not want to be thought of as a RHINO, I would never want to be thought of as a THUG. I'll be quite honest here, I'm a slightly larger than average guy. I've have physically hurt people before in other sports and in mundane life. I'm not into it; consequently there is a force level at which I could throw that I am not comfortable throwing. I realize this is my hang-up.

Connor McEldridge · Post by **Connor McEldridge** » Fri Aug 16, 2002 9:35 am

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Caspar:
[B] The problem I see with this is defining 'slappy/tingy.'

By this I mean a shot that people perceive as 'sounding good'. We've all been there. Watching a fight, a fighter throws a blow, the defenders helm rings. And WHAT, he didn't call that!!!!
With my personal fighting style, I do a lot of 'bob and weave' type maneuvers. A lot of the time when I dodge shots, they'll skip off of my helm. Unfortunantly my helm rings a bit when struck at all.
I don't like feeling obligated in calling a blow I KNOW is not good, just because of how it sounded and what people are going to think.
I've hit people before and it 'sound' good. Well, the way I see it is like this. If you feel your opponent is honorable, as we should or we should not be on a field of honor with them, then if my opponent says it was light, skippy, slappy whatever, then it was and I need to deliver a cleaner better placed blow. This does not mean I need to crank it up to extreme levels.

Sure, we've all hit people with enough force that we know it was a good shot. Adrenaline plays a big part in our game. Who hasn't not called a blow, then a few seconds or minutes later, felt it?

I guess what I'm rambling about is give your opponent the bennefit of the doubt. If they say it wasn't good, it probably wasn't.
If you were able to hit them once, you can probably do it again.

Connor

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » Fri Aug 16, 2002 3:48 pm

A statement that drives me INSANE is "Well, I'll take it for practice, but I wouldn't in a tourney."

I patiently explain to people that they are idiots when I hear that.

Well, ok, I'm nicer than that...but I do explain pointedly that they are training their friends to hit light and then when those friends get into tourney, they're going to think everyone is a frigging rhino. SO they're CONTRIBUTING to the problem of people thinking there are rhinos out there...ones who very well may not be rhinos.

Just my opinion of course.

Rainald · Post by **Rainald** » Fri Aug 16, 2002 9:14 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Morgan:
A statement that drives me INSANE is "Well, I'll take it for practice, but I wouldn't in a tourney."...
.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Same here, I don't have a tourney and practice mode. I try and fight the exact same whenever I'm armoured up. The only exception is when I'm doing "announced" slow work or when facing a obvious new fighter.

Vebrand · Post by **Vebrand** » Sat Aug 17, 2002 6:31 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Morgan:
A statement that drives me INSANE is "Well, I'll take it for practice, but I wouldn't in a tourney."

I patiently explain to people that they are idiots when I hear that.

SO they're CONTRIBUTING to the problem of people thinking there are rhinos out there...ones who very well may not be rhinos.

Just my opinion of course.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Morgan I do this often and know others who do and I do not consider any of them or myself an idiot

I use it as a training of fighters. Saying you hit me with a clean shot and I recognize that and will call it so but next time put a little more force behind it or in tourneys most people including myself will not call that. I rarely go full out at practice. I spend most of it in training mode. To use Caspar's example, what would be the point if I just became a thug? I have come to realize that some people do not switch between practice and tourney mode as easily as I do. I have spoke to Rainald, Brandr, and Marvin about this ad it is a draw back fighting lighter at practice than at tourneys. I am glad to see the level of fighting and recognition go up a little in our area. It does not mean I will totally change what I do in practice.
Vebrand

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » Sat Aug 17, 2002 8:18 am

I appologize, I should have been more verbose.

I hate that statement when I'm at practice and we're in "just fighting" mode. IE, when the person who's swing at me and myself are in "adversarial" mode.

There are numerous and obvious exceptions, and I use them as well when training those less experienced than myself. I'm sorry I wasn't more clear.

Hob · Post by **Hob** » Sat Aug 17, 2002 5:35 pm

A statement that drives me INSANE is "Well, I'll take it for practice, but I wouldn't in a tourney."

Strangely enough, in SCA rapier practices it's more common to hear "That was really marginal, I'd take it in a tourney but for now let's keep fighting."

Just a wierd bit of insight.

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » Sat Aug 17, 2002 6:57 pm

In heavy practice, we DO the same thing, but we don't say as many words. We just say, "Good head shot" and keep fighting.

Unless it's a bear pit or a loser/winner in/out kind of thing.

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Mon Aug 19, 2002 5:53 pm

"I for one have been wanting to up the calibrations in our area. Although I must admit that I don't want to be perceived as a 'rhino' either. Thing is, we cheapen our combat/technique by calling 'slappy/tinging' type shots. I think
a good stout blow should be called, not the tingy stuff."

Now how come when i say that people look at me like i suggested eating babies?

As for my buddy Caspar he's enormous, he could probably knock me out with a full force shot. He's and guys like Moose are just that powerful. Those Meridians don't need to up their shot power.

Now many of us do call really light. I've had people call shots that i did'nt know connected, and expect me to call shots that i'd be willing to take naked.

Now i _know_ we can throw a good shot here in Meridies, we rocked at Pensic. I had maybe 2 guys not take the first shot. We killed alot of folks, Blood Guard, Easties, HRM Artemisia and HRM Darius. I loved fighting with you guys. Espically in the allied champios battle. I'll treasure that forever.
*sniffle*

Back to the subject...
I'm bout the only guy in the kingdom that has more steel in his closet than Lex. My leather covered legs actually transfer less impact than my tighter fitting gotic ones did. I get no complaints in them, but i did get griped at accasionally in my shiny legs.

Some people here seem to assume you won't take shots when they see steel. Combinme that your out of kingdom, you may just be getting the knee jerk reaction. Once they know ya it'll probably go away. We're a real friendly kingdom.

Magnus The Black · Post by **Magnus The Black** » Wed Aug 28, 2002 7:30 pm

Dude I don't think you rhino. I do think you need to be louder. I could barely here you when we fought. I also wonder if I call too light and hit too light. Connor all those shots from the Pas at Aphar Faire were good the bruises on my right arm say so. At my last Lagerdamm practice before Aphar Faire I tried calling what was good insated of what I noticed was touching me which is what normally call. Stu landed some good shots but a lower percentage than if I called everything. Only one of the new guys landed a decent shot. Stu also called less of mine as I told him this is what I was after and one of the new guys said about four of my shots on him was light. I'm thinking I should probably step it uo in both area's what do you guys who have fought me think?

gmandragora · Post by **gmandragora** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 1:00 pm

To complete the T-Bob story...

At the end of the battle, the knight came up to T-bob, surrounded by his household, and said that although the blows came throuh they were very light. Everybody laughed. NO ONE has ever accused T-Bob of being gentle with a mace. Then the knight said the mace must be soft. Everybody laughed. That mace is known as "thud". I would bet it is the stiffest legal mace in the mmidrealm. T-bob handed him the mace. The kight hefted it with a surprised look on his face. Everyone laughed. The knight put "thud" down and walked away shaking his head.

hjalmr · Post by **hjalmr** » Sat Aug 31, 2002 7:39 pm

Nice topic and it fits well into my situation.

I just moved down from the Midrealm and a few people in my group believe that I am not accepting blows like I should. I don't consider myself a rhino, but I do weeble-wooble as I fight. I try explaining that I thought the blow was either glancing (due to weeble-woobling,or just inaccurate aiming) or maybe just light. Others don't seem to care. Should I honestly lower my standard to Meridies just because I moved. I don't want to upset people, but I don't feel that I am being honorable if I accept a blow that I honestly don't think is "telling." I wear minimal armor now (so I don't die from the heat) so i don't believe I'm over dressed.

I also have a few Meridian questions that I need help with since the computer I'm using can't access the meridian Marshal pages(too much info for the computer to process.)

1)If I block a blow that causes my sword to lightly strike my helm (another words it would not be hard enough to be a telling blow) would it be good? Some people have told me I'm dead if it happens and I can't believe that.

2)Can I push my opponents shield with the tip of my sword if it doesn't have a thrusting tip? I was told that it is considered faking a face thrust when I don't have a thrusting tip. I consider it moving the shield out of my way so I can hit the person. I can understand a concern if I was slamming the shield pretty hard, but I just slowly pushed my sword tip onto the outstretched centergrip shield and kept steady pressure so that my opponant couldn't stop my rap shot. Is this a legal move in Meridies, or are my fellow fighters correct?

Thanks
(^_^)

[This message has been edited by hjalmr (edited 08-31-2002).]

Magnus The Black · Post by **Magnus The Black** » Sat Aug 31, 2002 8:37 pm

I honestly can't tell you one way or another when it come to blow calling. That is a very personal thing as well as the fact that I have never fought you. As far as theblocking thing goes I seriously doubt it. I Don't sonider it an issue. This is the way I see and I believe meridien rules do. If it lands hard enough you call it. That means if you block it with weapon or shield and it still impacts with suffecient force. If you hit yourself hard enough you call it. (In period it is likely more than one goober died by accidently hitting himself with his own sword) If you hit yourself or your opponent hits you light don't call it. As far as the pushing thing goes I dont think that is a wise idea. I would object and I dont usually abject about much. If you want to do that just put a low profile tip and then no prob. My whole obection is force is objective as well as speed and having the pount of a sword with out a tip on being pushed towards me is a bad idea at any speed.

Marvin · Post by **Marvin** » Sat Aug 31, 2002 11:14 pm

Welcome back Hjalmr!

"Weeble-wooble"? That's pretty good. I wonder if we can call it that when Connor does it.

I generally move my calibration to match the area I am in. You will find that some areas of Meridies hit harder than others (still recovering from the Pas at Aphar Faire - ouch, ouch, ouch - Brandr hits hard!)

Didn't you move back to Grey Niche? If so, there are plenty of, ahem, "experienced" fighters there that can better answer your calibration questions. Otherwise, come to Little Rock and we'll hit you in person and tell you what we think.

As far as the partially blocked shot rule is concerned - here it is, straight from the Meridian Marshall's handbook, 1998 version, page 46:

"The fact that a blow struck a shield or another weapon before striking the combatant may be reason why the blow was not effective. However, a blow which strikes with sufficient force and properly oriented shall be considered effective, regardless of what it hit prior to striking the combatant."

Using the uncovered tip of the sword might be construed as a feint - especially if neither your opponent nor the marshall have seen you do this before. However, if you are performing the manuever as you described, I'm at a loss - I would have to see it. It is probably best to do as Magnus advised and use a low-profile tip and avoid the problem alltogether.