Authentic fighters win crown list!!!!

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 12:23 pm

At Meridian crown list the finals came down to.

Viscount Sir Camric and Sir Maximillian, OL

Camric attended Hastings 2000 and is AFAIK a member of Regia US. He wore a Fourth Armour rivited mail shirt and aventail fought with a curved kite complete with guige!

Max is an accasional Archiver, Laureled armourer student of period Chiv literature, and wore a full steel lamalar curiass and period style spagen helm, fought with a rather small wooden round.

Both men defeated numerous "sport armoured" opponents, obviously.

Sir Max proved victorious in the end.

WalMart Warrior · Post by **WalMart Warrior** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 1:05 pm

Gee, so much for the arguement that "sport" fighters have an unfair advantage....

I guess it really does come down to skill!

WMW
___________________
SCA combat - It IS a sport!

Brodir · Post by **Brodir** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 1:07 pm

Are there pics up online yet?

Stoffel · Post by **Stoffel** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 2:04 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> posted 10-14-2002 01:05 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gee, so much for the arguement that "sport" fighters have an unfair advantage....
I guess it really does come down to skill!

WMW
___________________
SCA combat - It IS a sport!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Is it troll hunting season yet?

sarnac · Post by **sarnac** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 2:18 pm

I won my crown in a full lamellar harness and gamboised cuises with pointed knees...and leather Greaves....and bazubands..
It happens more than people think.

Congrats to Sir Max

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 3:07 pm

I am so pleased that Sir Max won crown! But it would have been cool to see one of our haubergeons go the distance, too!

Sure is some good PR...

Steve

------------------
Forth Armoury
Highly authentic, affordable riveted maille.

The measure of a man is not in the steel of his skin but in the steel of his heart. - S. Sheldon

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 3:07 pm

That is BAD ASS.
-Vitus

WalMart Warrior · Post by **WalMart Warrior** » Mon Oct 14, 2002 3:11 pm

Troll? Nope - I've been reading for a while, posting for the last couple of months - I just don't live on message boards.

Nor do I prescribe to the "If you aren't 100% authentic you are cheating" school. From emails from friends throughout the SCA, seems like a NUMBER of Crown tourney winners wear little or no "sport armor" - I beleive the last and current Midrealm Kings both wear no sport armor - So Midrealm, Ealdomere and Meridian Crowns have been won recently by men with little or no sport armor. Interesting, no?

So what I AM saying is maybe the people posting the "These guys in plastic / non-authentic / sport armor are beating me by cheating" on this board need to look at these people, and consider that just MAYBE there is some other reason they don't win every fight. Skill, dedication, heart....

I don't recall hearing the Knight out of your home Kingdom - who has 1 leg - complaining about his "disadvatage". He overcame it and became a very dangerous opponent.

SCA combat is a celebration of the romantic chivalric attitude. This mindset, this brotherhood doesn't come wrapped only in steel -

WMW -
______________

Plastic or Steel - Skill, dedication and heart are the equalizers.

Jean Richard Malcolmson · Mon Oct 14, 2002 8:24 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by WalMart Warrior:

I don't recall hearing the Knight out of your home Kingdom - who has 1 leg - complaining about his "disadvatage". He overcame it and became a very dangerous opponent.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you think fighting with Kief is dangerous (and it is!) try partying with him some time. I'm just glad there aren't pictures.

Regards,
Jean Richard
Ansteorra

Tashfin · Post by **Tashfin** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 1:20 pm

'I beleive the last and current Midrealm Kings both wear no sport armor - So Midrealm, Ealdomere and Meridian Crowns have been won recently by men with little or no sport armor. Interesting, no?'

That is correct HRM Tarrach Alfson does nto wear Plastic his armour is pure leather save his helmet

Jurgen · Post by **Jurgen** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 1:25 pm

Actually I believe that Tarrach does have a bit of plastic in his armour. Specifically in the hockey elbows he wears under his tunic. Everything else but the helmet is leather.

Jurgen

Sebastian K · Post by **Sebastian K** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 2:53 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tashfin:

'I beleive the last and current Midrealm Kings both wear no sport armor - So Midrealm, Ealdomere and Meridian Crowns have been won recently by men with little or no sport armor. Interesting, no?'

That is correct HRM Tarrach Alfson does nto wear Plastic his armour is pure leather save his helmet

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

AFAIK,

King Giles of Drachenwald did not wear sports armour at his Crown Tournamnet. I know he owns a set of plastic spaulders so he can travel throughout Drachenwald (you have to fly these parts), but I know that he does not like them.

Sebastian

Richard de Scolay · Post by **Richard de Scolay** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 3:26 pm

Since I'm new to this scene I don't have much of a leg to stand on as the saying goes. But, I was fairly disappointed to see how much plastic armor was in use at the Midrealm crown tourney. Even His Royal Highness Sir Pieter was wearing what looked like black plastic Alchemy Armory legs, at least his kit looked good from 50 feet. There were only a few fighters who had nice kits that looked like the traditional knight in armor.

WalMart Warrior · Post by **WalMart Warrior** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 4:01 pm

Lets see - - -

A couple of Normans, a Saxons, a Viking, an Aztec, a Spaniard, a German, a Celt.... Those are the combatants I can recall from that Crown...

What is traditional?

My point is, that maybe "sport armour" isn't the unbalancing factor people seem to think.

Especially if you accept the idea posed by some on this list that typical SCA steel suits are unrealisticlly HEAVY compared to their historic counterparts.

BTW - I agree that blatently mocern / undisguised plastic looks horrible - but I've seen some plastic stuff that looks real good at 10 - 12 feet, let alone 50. Seen some all steel that looked like crap too.

WMW
______________
Clothes do not make the man.....

[This message has been edited by WalMart Warrior (edited 10-23-2002).]

Richard de Scolay · Post by **Richard de Scolay** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 4:24 pm

WMW, I don't see sport armor as unbalancing, nor do I put much value on what people say about the weight of today's plate versus period examples given that a number of fighters do have nice plate kits and do quite well in them.

My only problem, and it's a personal one more than anything, is that not enough people are choosing to go with the knight in shining armor look. I'm not even saying that shiny plate armor is authentic, I'm just stuck on the romantic perceptions we have of knights.

WalMart Warrior · Post by **WalMart Warrior** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 4:37 pm

Hey, I hear you -

But what if you persona wouldn't wear all (or even mostly) steel?

I would LOVE to see people look good on the field - I don't care WHAT you wear, as long as it looks possibly authentic (OK, so Sir so-and-so the 8th century Norse would wear leather lamellar, but hey, it looks good!), is in decent repair, and most importantly, they carry a Romantic Chivalric attitude on the field.

WMW
_______________
Rust IS authentic!

sarnac · Post by **sarnac** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 5:37 pm

example.....
I had my metal lamellar plates powder coated black because in period alot of the Mongol armour was made out of Iron.

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 5:54 pm

By the way, folks, Walmart Warrior is not me, although he may have picked up the handle from my thread. I have never started a second username to annoy anyone, being quite content to point out nonsense in my original username.
Interesting that some people immediately jump to conclusions about "trolling" without paying any attention to the text. Surprising? Nahh, I expect as much.

cdmontfort · Post by **cdmontfort** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 8:03 pm

To the best of my knowledge this is the only site yet with photos.

http://members.cox.net/cmccloud/SCA/index.html

You can also see Murdock in one these pictures I believe.

Collin

WalMart Warrior · Post by **WalMart Warrior** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 8:36 pm

I'm not Bascot - I'm much better looking. (Realy, I wouldn't know Bascot if he bit me.)

Actually, I picked it up from a thread of Vitus' I thought - where he apologized for being a "WalMart Warrior".

Me? I'm one. I wear hidden/disguised plastic, but not so light it can be construed as "Generi-celt sport gear" - my armour comes in at the same weight my old leather COP/leather legs/arms/metal elbows/knees/helm did, and is better looking AND lower maintenance. I make sure and "sport" armour / equipment is hidden. I play with ALL weapon forms, including 2 sword and have used an axe madu-style.

I appluad those who strive for accuracy, and those "less than athletes" who show the balls to get out on the field and play - knowing that they will likely never advance past the second round.

Yes, I know what my persona would have worn. I can't afford to buy it / get tools / learn to make it / it wouldn't be SCA legal. Don't have the tons of free time to maintiain it. I have little interest in metal work. BUT I try to embrace the SPIRIT of my persona - and not one that is horribly accurate historicly. The ROMANCE of the chivalric warrior - The heroes of song and story and fable and legend - and history.

I fight hard, and I like to think I'm pretty good at the game. Win or lose, I try to enjoy myself, and give my opponent a fight to remember (or at least laugh about). I work to strip away politics from my interaction in the SCA, and not represent it (or myself) as anything more than what it (and I) am. I am reveling in the longest costume party / semi-extreme sport around.

Whether you wear a white suit or plastic COP, spangenhelm or spun top - if you use sword and shield, two sword or mudu and boomerang - Meet me on the field in a celebration of the Romantic Chivalric Spirit. Meet me in the Spirit of Competition, or cross weapons with me for some good old fashioned FUN. And I will call you all brothers...

I am -

WalMart Warrior...

________________
Hi-ho Kydex.... Awaaaaayyyyyy!

[This message has been edited by WalMart Warrior (edited 10-23-2002).]

Jean Richard Malcolmson · Wed Oct 23, 2002 9:09 pm

Ya know, I thought Ansteorran shields were larger than Meridian shields, but looking at most of those in this Crown List, they have every bit as much square footage as my 2 foot by 3 foot rectangle.

Regards,
Jean Richard
Ansteorra

Vebrand · Post by **Vebrand** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 10:57 pm

There were a few large shields in the list. However, the guy who won had probably the smallest shield on the field, a 26'-28" centergrip. I fight a heater about 2' x 3' and like tose guys with the big shields. They have to come out from behind them to do anything and the recovery time is usually slow. HE HE HE.

Vebrand

[This message has been edited by Vebrand (edited 10-24-2002).]

sarnac · Post by **sarnac** » Wed Oct 23, 2002 11:07 pm

that big kite is almost obscenely big....

what ever happened to "shoulder to shoulder, chin to crotch" tourney shield rules????

Ulrich · Post by **Ulrich** » Thu Oct 24, 2002 12:18 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by sarnac:
that big kite is almost obscenely big....

what ever happened to "shoulder to shoulder, chin to crotch" tourney shield rules????<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is no standing rule on tourney shield size in Meridies, though some crowns have put shield size restrictions in for their list there wasn't one for this particular crown list. though the black kite Count Cedric is using and the purple and gold one Sir Shaltar uses in the pictures were most likely the largest shields in the tournament. My shield (oddly enough also a kite) likely came in third on the size rank no worries though I'm just compensating.

Ulrich

Dmitriy · Post by **Dmitriy** » Thu Oct 24, 2002 2:32 am

Some giant shield out there..

I really, really like Camric's kit. It's just right.

Rannulf Fitzwilliam · Post by **Rannulf Fitzwilliam** » Thu Oct 24, 2002 4:49 am

I got great pics!!!! Don't know how to post em......argghhh!!!!

Rannulf
email me for instructions on how to post

Brodir · Post by **Brodir** » Thu Oct 24, 2002 5:08 am

http://members.cox.net/cmccloud/SCA/image034.html

Awesome.

cristofre fortescu · Post by **cristofre fortescu** » Thu Oct 24, 2002 8:38 am

Actually, Sir Camric's kite shield is well within documented size and taylored to him. Not to big, but just right for his persona.

Cristofre

Greenshield · Post by **Greenshield** » Thu Oct 24, 2002 5:36 pm

Gentlemen and Ladies,

First, let me thank you for your kind words and comments concerning myself and my kit. It has taken me many years to get it where I'm happy with it and I'm not finished yet.

His Highness, Sir Maximillian, fought an excellent list and advanced through all undefeated. This in itself is an achievment worthy of note concidering the names in the List. It was an honor to meet him in the finals and to find defeat at his hands.

Now, on to my reasons for this reply: My take on Sport Armor.

I can certainly understand why people use it. Sure it's light and often, it is less expensive. For many new to the SCA and combat it is an excellent way to begin their fighting. Sometimes there are no substitues. For others it is sometimes the only thing they can wear be it due to lack of funds or former injuries that allow nothing heavier. Others simply find it aids in their speed.(but speed isn't everything!)

All these are excellent reasons to use the stuff and, lets remember, we are in a 'Creative' anacronistic group. This is not Regia or Conquest or the Ermine Street Guard(excellent groups one and all). I am a firm believer in period at 10 feet. Believe me, only a small percentage of my kit is hand stiched and period dyed etc.

As for 'sport armor' in Crown list lets face it, people are going to wear what works best for them. However, it is expected that if you join a medieval reenactment group you are there to do the best you can to try an recreate some aspects of medieval life or you would not be there to begin with.(ie, please do your best to cover the stuff or make it look somewhat medieval)

It is also the job of the peers of the realm to set the example for others to follow and raise the bar when ever possible. In this respect, Crown Lists, I beleive from what I have seen that most are doing just that(hence period armor often being in the finals) and I urge you all to continue doing just that. Same with all you squires that have any asperations of achieving the accolade.

In the end you have to do what makes you happy. For me, it's making my kit as period as I can get it and still be SCA legal. Depending on your personna and your Kingdom this isn't always easy!

Do I mind the stuff? not realy. Does it take away from the experience? sometimes. Is it going to go away? nope.

Did this rambe make any sence? I sure hope so!

Anyway, thats my bit.

Camric

Trevor · Post by **Trevor** » Thu Oct 24, 2002 6:57 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by greenshield:
All these are excellent reasons to use the stuff and, lets remember, we are in a 'Creative' anacronistic group.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They are reasons, yes, but not "excellent". Excuses are more like it.

"Creative Anachronism" is not a license to put forth the image of a knight in plastic.

Frankly, I don't mind what is worn for safety purposes as long as it is not seen. Athletic cups come to mind. Heck, I even have some kydex for spaulders and kidney protection which are well hidden.

What bugs me is when people don't even bother covering the stuff up. Yuck. Make a f#cking effort, dammit.

Everything else is just excuses. Even the cost factor isn't true-there are plenty of examples of metal armor that is as inexpensive as armor made from Egg Armory.

And that's not considering what you can make at home. A sheet of mild 16 guage costs about $30. A sheet of Kydex costs $140.

Brodir · Post by **Brodir** » Fri Oct 25, 2002 12:56 am

Sir Camric

Thank you for posting! I read the article in TI about your trip to the Hastings re-enactment, and now to see you fighting in almost the same setup, is inspiring. I'm trying to portray an armoured warrior c. 800 from Denmark/Jutland within SCA combat. I've had a really hard time dealing with body armour; I have a riveted maille shirt and want to fight in it, but obviously it offers no protection for our game. I've tried a couple different hidden plastic defenses under the mail, but was never able to get something that didn't show through the clothing. I'm currently using lamellar, and it's nice, but not realistic for my timeframe or locale.

If I may ask, what are you wearing under your maille? At the risk of sounding foolish, it looks like nothing at all. Excellent job, I'm really impressed with your kit overall.

~Wil

Greenshield · Post by **Greenshield** » Fri Oct 25, 2002 9:04 am

Wil,

If it is very hot I only wear my tunic. Usually I have a gambison on under my chain and over my tunic. It's a bit warm in the summer but it does take 'some' of the sting out.

As for leg protection I have street hockey one piece knee and shin protection under my pants. Upper leg is un-padded however, you can get some of the football shorts at local sporting goods stores. They are knee length and have pockets designed for adding plastic plates for protection. They could be quite useful and are light weight and not that expensive. I've seen gambisons done in this manner as well with pockets to insert leather or plastic strips that are removeable for washing.

I'll do a little research and see what I can come up for you to help you get more period. Any idea where your personna would have traveled?

C

Vermin · Post by **Vermin** » Fri Oct 25, 2002 9:18 am

"If you think fighting with Kief is dangerous (and it is!) try partying with him some time. I'm just glad there aren't pictures."

Now THERE is an understatement!
I've got scars from doing just that.....
And he's also beat my ass around the field more than once.....(grin)
I'm glad there aren't any party pics too!
His Squire Dauphin is no one to trifle with either.....heh.

If any of you see either of them in the near future, tell them Vermin says hi!
VvS

Brodir · Post by **Brodir** » Sat Oct 26, 2002 12:25 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by greenshield:
Wil,

If it is very hot I only wear my tunic. Usually I have a gambison on under my chain and over my tunic. It's a bit warm in the summer but it does take 'some' of the sting out.

As for leg protection I have street hockey one piece knee and shin protection under my pants. Upper leg is un-padded however, you can get some of the football shorts at local sporting goods stores. They are knee length and have pockets designed for adding plastic plates for protection. They could be quite useful and are light weight and not that expensive. I've seen gambisons done in this manner as well with pockets to insert leather or plastic strips that are removeable for washing.

I'll do a little research and see what I can come up for you to help you get more period. Any idea where your personna would have traveled?

C<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, my persona is from Hedeby, and is a huscarl (I know the term is anachronistic) to King Godfried. Godfried fought the Franks during Charlamagne's reign, and Sigfried supported the Saxons against the Franks when he was king of Denmark in the late 700's. SO, I would have started my military career under Sigfried, then Godfried, then that putz Hemming, and died when Horik I was King of Denmark.

When the Franks went to war with the Saxons, Sigfried sent Danes to fight alongside the Saxon leader Widukind, and after the Saxons lost, some fled to Jutland. Godfried warred against the Frisians and the Franks. ALso, there were a number of Slavic tribes living east of Saxony; half of them allied with Godfried and exchanged hostages, troops etc., and half allied with the Franks. So, with mixed armies, Godfried's troops serving non-norse leaders etc., it's possible for me to use arms and armour drawn from Danish, Frankish, north-western Slavic, Saxon and Frisian sources from around 800.

Danish sources all point to small numbers of maille shirts, and round spangenhelms. Frisian, Slavic and Saxon sources are silent on arms and armament. An Archiver in Germany sent me some fascinating illustrations from a Saxon bible showing interesting helmet shapes and side-strapped round shields, but it was all mid-900's. Frankish sources from the time are plentiful and thorough, but are tainted by artistic yearnings for Rome and Byzantium, as well as lots of weird stuff (claims that Charlamagne's cavalry wore gauntlets and cuirasses, etc.). Frankish sources show domed round shields, maille shrts or scale coats, and either round spangenhelms or those odd proto-morions.

I'm fairly happy with my kit right now. I have a spear, a sword, two axes and a knife. I fight with a domed round shield (which is unfortunately aluminum, I would happily replace it with wood if someone could make one that would stand up to combat). I have my leg armour hidden under blousy pants like those depicted on the Gotland rune stones c. 800, and my arm harness is all leather. I fight in a tunic patterned after those found at Hedeby and dated to the 800's. My helm is a simplified version of the Coppergate helmet, which is of Anglo-Saxon manufacture and dated to 750-800. Not continental, but dated closer than the Gjermundbu or Valsgarde helmets that every SCA Viking is using.

But, the only armour I can justify is scale or maille, and I hate scale armour; it's frail and heavy and doesn't offer much more defense than maille, unless you make the scales so big & thick that you look nothing like a Frank afterwards anyway. I've thought of a maille shirt with one of those wide Germanic military belts from around 500, but it offerns nothing over the collarbones and shoulder blades. The various lamellar harnesses I've fought in are nice, but unrealistic for 800 so far from the Byzantine world.

I'm stuck! If you have any ideas, I'm all ears. I've thought about a gambeson stuffed about 1.5" thick, so heavily padded it would stand on it's own. Probably highly impractical though. A gambeson with waxed leather splints in the channels instead might be interesting.

Anyway, I'm rambling. If you have any books that may contain literary descriptions or artistic representations of warrior-class Frisians, Franks, Saxons, Danes or Slavs from c. 800, I'd be interested to check it out. Thanks,

~Wil

FrauHirsch · Post by **FrauHirsch** » Sat Oct 26, 2002 12:25 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Trevor:
"Creative Anachronism" is not a license to put forth the [b]image of a knight in plastic.[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Someone told me that the originators of the name meant that it is Us that are the "Anachronism" because we are playing medieval people in the modern times. The Anachronism isn't about an excuse to bring modern stuff into our game.

Nice armor. It is too bad the pictures are ruined by all the plastic sunshades, orange water jug, and modern camp chairs along the list field.

I have been banning those dang chairs from our camp. Drives me craaaazyyyyyy.

Now people are getting better chairs or covering them entirely. Funny what arbitrary rulings do.

Juliana