How to train a fencer into a heavy fighter?

[Aaron]

Hi,

There is a local fencer who is interest in heavy fighting. He's young, physically fit and cheerful.

At the same time, I'm trying to downsize our SCA footprint (last move hurt) and have excess body armour, helmet, buckler, etc... We're working out a trade of armour for house-sorting assistance. AND I get to reduce my stuff AND make someone a happy fighter. BIG win IMO.

Considering his previous work as a fencer, I'm considering trying to guide him to sword-and-buckler first. And that way I can donate my buckler and baskethilted swords to him too.

What I'm thinking of is loosely training him. Outfitting him, asking if he'd like to spar vs. the pell. Then if he'd like to spar as I block shots (no hitting him), etc...

And we can do some light armouring together to make demi gauntlets, legs, arms, etc... Armouring is as addicting as any drug, but only slightly socially acceptable.

My time to fight is getting less and less. I think I'm just going to specialize in counted blow stuff with pollaxe, and mostly attend fighter practices.

I'm VERY glad I'm working, but time is not on my side.



With thanks,

-Aaron

[Cellach_macChormach]

From my experience most rapier combatants who cross over rely too much on thrusting. I would have a new cross over combatant start fighting WITHOUT a thrusting tip. After they've developed by good solid cuts I'd give them back their thrusting tip.

[Owynn Greenwood]

I never understood sword and shield. I just doesn't make sense to me. A short polearm to me is very similar to a rapier. Same weapon for offense and defense. Same thrusting and cutting abilities. The wards with a polearm are very similar to fencing wards.

Owynn

[Saritor]

Aaron, who is it? PM me, if you feel more comfortable. I might be able to make a few suggestions, being an Outlands fencer first who started to cross over later.

[Sir Guy]

Give him a sword and shield so that he can blend into the rest of the community better, practice with the buckler also of course but starting someone off as an outlayer might not be the best for him.

As you know Aaron I fight buckler also so have nothing against it, it would just be very difficult for a new fighter to not get discouraged with it once he starts fighting others.

[Saritor]

Give him a sword and shield so that he can blend into the rest of the community better, practice with the buckler also of course but starting someone off as an outlayer might not be the best for him.

The Outlands doesn't necessarily have a strong shield wall culture/mentality, and I half wonder if the fencer in question is mostly interested in fighting at War, on top of fighting more generally.

[Aaron]

Excellent points.

I'll hand him one of my pollaxes and see what he thinks. And ask him to borrow a shield from one of the other fighters and get sword-and-shield work from someone who is good at it.

[Dietrich von Stroheim]

Give him a sword and shield so that he can blend into the rest of the community better, practice with the buckler also of course but starting someone off as an outlayer might not be the best for him.

As you know Aaron I fight buckler also so have nothing against it, it would just be very difficult for a new fighter to not get discouraged with it once he starts fighting others.

I concur with Sir Guy--as I said in my Sword and Buckler appreciation thread, I certainly love the style; however, I don't recommend it as the principle form for a new fighter because their thighs will be turned into ground beef very quickly, which can be discouraging.

Get him a good strapped heater shield or whatever the most common type of shield in your area is--that way, he will be able to learn the most from those around him as he decides what form he ultimately wants to use.

[Saritor]

Excellent points.

I'll hand him one of my pollaxes and see what he thinks. And ask him to borrow a shield from one of the other fighters and get sword-and-shield work from someone who is good at it.

Standard Outlands Fencer Conversion 1010 is to hook them up with a 6-9' spear and start training them with that, but a pollaxe could work just as well.

If you do have him do sword and board, tell him to learn initially without a thrusting tip, or send him to the C&T program.

[Aaron]

I do have a spear I'm quite willing to give him.

Gauntlets are the hard issue. Those cost a bit more. Hence the sword-and-shield route. It's much more cost effective IMO.

-Aaron

[Lorccan]

I went the other way - started as an armoured fighter, and picked up rapier along the way.

I definitely agree that he should try sword and board for a while, without a thrusting tip, or a polearm/two-handed sword. It'll force him to develop percussive strikes with adequate force. He'll be able to use the senses of timing, measure, etc., that he's developed from fencing, but he won't be able to slip into his familiar fencing body mechanics too easily. In my opinion, that's the part that needs to change for his success.

If he just wanted to fight in wars, I'd say just get him a pike & gauntlets, but that does not sound like the case here. Pike is so similar to single rapier, it's kind of funny. It'll be natural for him, but it won't teach him how to strike a good edge blow.

Once he throws solid blows consistently, then by all means, give him a thrusting tip, and get him into sword and buckler! He'll probably have a lot of fun with it, as well as with a pike or a longsword/bastard sword!

A not-too-heavy longsword can be a lot of fun for a fencer who's been itching to try out all those cool longsword techniques in the fechtbooks! Even better, many of them work beautifully!

[Ingvarr]

asking if he'd like to spar vs. the pell. Then if he'd like to spar as I block shots (no hitting him), etc...

You're talking about training him like you do your children. IMO training like this does him a disservice. put him in armor, put your armor on, and swing at each other. I don't think it's fair to him to ask him to invest time and service into it if he's just going to quit the first time someone hits him with a stout blow. Treat him like a man, he deserves it. Just because he is a rapier fighter, he's not necessarily a delicate little flower that needs to be protected.

[Dafydd]

I don't have a lot to add to the excellent advice already presented, but as someone who fights equal measures of heavy and light (and also has sport fencing experience...), maybe I can contribute an insight or two.

I presume by your usage of "fencer" rather than "rapier fighter," that your friend comes out of the sport ("Olympic") fencing world. If he's reasonably accomplished, that very likely means he has footwork that's already better than an embarrassing percentage of SCA heavy fighters. It will be somewhat specialized footwork, mind you, but chances are he's already got the concept of controlling measure through footwork down pat. Build on this.

I think buckler is a great idea, although I also agree that he should do some regular sword-and-board, too (so as not to get frustrated during his "ramp up" period). Perhaps sword-and-board with no thrusting and buckler with thrusting would be a good mix.

Is your friend more interested inthe WMA aspect of SCA Heavy (that is, learning armored sword combat as a martial art) or in success at the SCA sportfighting game? Because for better or worse, those two pursuits have diverged considerably over the years (as we all know...). If it's the latter, he will probably have an easier time. Sport fencing is also a very different game from swordfighting, and training him will be a matter of helping him adapt to different rules and equipment. If it's the former, he will have to unlearn a good few things, I'm afraid.

With most people, I'd be asking if you're inclined to aim him at reasonably historically accurate armor or not...but I realize who I'm talking to here! And as an aside, I'm about to order the last couple bits for my cap-a-pie rig! Wheeeee!

[Saritor]

Gauntlets are the hard issue. Those cost a bit more. Hence the sword-and-shield route. It's much more cost effective IMO.

What size are his hands? I might have a pair of clamshells I can sell for cheap that need a little work (a strap added, and a couple rivets replaced at the finger).

I'll even do payments, depending on who it is, or if you'd vouchsafe for them. (Considering I'm talking about like $85 for the gauntlets, payments over 3-4 months is kind of amusing, but I'm willing to work with it.)

[Saritor]

I presume by your usage of "fencer" rather than "rapier fighter," that your friend comes out of the sport ("Olympic") fencing world.

The northern Outlands has a lot of sport mentality fighters that have some Olympic background, but "fencer" is probably just generic. We haven't ever converted over from light/heavy, and epee still sees a fair amount of use up north.

There's been a couple of guys in Aaron's group that have expressed interest in cut & thrust, which has a LOT more carryover in to armored than in to rapier, but Aaron's group is about 8-900 miles away, despite being in the same kingdom, so I don't get up there too often to work with them, and the C&T program is still building here.

If they are, though, I would suggest you hook them up with a copy of Manciolino's Opera Nova that Tom Leoni just translated and published via Freelance Academy Press. I guarantee that'll get 'em interested (and they can auth for C&T, too, since it's on my acceptable source list for solo work.)

I've still got my Italian footwork drills for the iPod -- they're slow, for novices, and my voice sounds goofy, but they work, and they can put them in and run them randomly for however long they want.

[DukeAvery]

Don't part with good armor too quickly.

In addition to the other advice given here, I'd recommend copious amounts of slow work to ingrain new movement patterns. In my experience, small shield training will produce the best results in the long term. In the short term it is very frustrating. I fought small round for 5 years before I turned to spear. I'm not saying that is the only way, but that is what I did as taught by Duke Adrian who was heavily influenced by Duke Paul, and it is what I started Duke Ivan on.

Regards

Avery

[Aaron]

Your Grace,

We move in two years. This is an absolute. After that we'll move again in 2-6 years, depending. In 2017-2019 I retire and can start thinking about being less mobile.

Looking over my hoard of weapons and excess armour, I have to consider that I fought once every three months for the last ~3 years. That includes practices. And with the exception of one Pennsic, I haven't overnighted at an event in almost twelve years. As my family and work duties increase, I don't expect this to get much better.

This is excess baggage I'm carrying. And it costs me when we move, in more ways than one. I can't ask my wife and kids to get rid of the excess if I'm clinging to it myself.

I’m keeping the day shade Trystan gave me, my pollaxe collection, one set of garb, the Flight-Light-Fight suit (for conferences I’ll be at) and my cap-a-pie suit. The rest is being given away or sold off.

That core equipment will get me to have nice fighter practices, some nice day-trip events and fighting when I fly out for silly stuff work related.

While I could work hard and may make a buck for the stuff, it's much more emotionally satisfying to outfit a new fighter in reasonably good gear and see them smile and enjoy the sport.

When I look at the cash in my hand, nobody ever smiles back from those cold portraits. I prefer the smiles of the living.

I’m not giving away good armour. I’m investing in the future with quality equipment. If we don’t bring up the next generation of fighters, I might not have fighter practices to even visit in the future.

With respect,

-Aaron

[DukeAvery]

Of course you are skilled in matters of character judgement, forgive my presumption Aaron.

I look forward to meeting you, even exchanging stout blows now that you are in range of some of the same major events I am (mid-west, west). I realize you won't have time for such with family and duty appropriately coming first, but perhaps, with a bit of luck, it shall come to pass.

Regards

Avery

[freiman the minstrel]

Aaron,

If you are training a fencer to be a heavy fighter, be conscious of the fact that they are at home on a list field, but not at home in armor.

Drachenwald doesn't subscibe to the white scarf treaty, but we had a fencer in our shire that regularly competed (and I think he won a LOT more often than he lost) against our visiting Dons. He decided that he wanted to pick up his heavy fighting ticket, and we dressed him in the loaner stuff. On his second practice, he walked onto the field, and I had a discordant moment (something's wrong, I don't know what), until Adam (at the time KEM) stopped him. Adam had noticed that something was wrong too, but we couldn't put our fingers on what it might be.

It turns out that he hadn't put knee or elbow pads (or any other padding) on under his gear, because he didn't know he had to. He just walked onto the list field in the same way he always did, like an alpha predator.

We saw the confidence, and it somehow caused us to miss the gear issues.

On the equipment side of things...

I recommend selling the gear if possible, and letting your newbie buy it for market price. If necessary, go with the "good buddy" price. Gear that is acquired for free has much less value than gear you pay for. Nobody on the archive will be too ticked off if you are straight up and say that you have somebody local to whom you are giving first refusal.

And I would keep the young man on sword and buckler for a month or two before you give him a pole. Once he goes pole, chances are, he wont go back.

f

[Amanda M]

I am a fencer turned heavy fighter and the guys train me just like they would any other heavy fighter. I just decided personally not to put a thrusting tip in my sword because I wanted to learn the fundamentals of fighting sword and shield and don't want to resort to doing fencing in armor.

[InsaneIrish]

"How to train a fencer into a Heavy Fighter".


Ok, follow me here.

First you have to go where the fencers are. Then proceed to make snide remarks like 'ya know, if you guys were to actually HIT each other it could be considered REAL fighting" and "light fighting is for pussys".

Then when you have them all riled up make a comment like "pFFFFHHHSSSSHHH if you guys could catch me maybe I would be scared". Then take off like a bat outa hell. Let them get fairly close to you but not close enough that they loose interest. Then lead them around the corner to the zone line where your Heavy Tanks are waiting to bash'em.

If you use Taunt and sheild bash that works to. just make sure you don't end up Taunting a Duke by mistake.

[Gorm]

Atlantia has had significant success migrating excellent fencers into excellent spearmen. Heck, we regularly field a cross discipline group at wars (the "Queen's spears")

Makes sense, really, they're both tip control games.

Might want to consider starting there.

[Sir Guy]

I guess I also forgot to ask what he wanted to do. What is his interest in heavy fighting? Is it melee as a part of the Army or is he more interested in Tourney? I think that would help decide also. Either way I would look at the fighting culture of the Kingdom he is in and help him to fit into it. Spear might be fine for melee, and he might need sword and shield for Tourney.

[Sir Guy]

Freiman it was wonderful and one of the those magical moments for me running into you at Pennsic.

Aaron,

If you are training a fencer to be a heavy fighter, be conscious of the fact that they are at home on a list field, but not at home in armor.

Drachenwald doesn't subscibe to the white scarf treaty, but we had a fencer in our shire that regularly competed (and I think he won a LOT more often than he lost) against our visiting Dons. He decided that he wanted to pick up his heavy fighting ticket, and we dressed him in the loaner stuff. On his second practice, he walked onto the field, and I had a discordant moment (something's wrong, I don't know what), until Adam (at the time KEM) stopped him. Adam had noticed that something was wrong too, but we couldn't put our fingers on what it might be.

It turns out that he hadn't put knee or elbow pads (or any other padding) on under his gear, because he didn't know he had to. He just walked onto the list field in the same way he always did, like an alpha predator.

We saw the confidence, and it somehow caused us to miss the gear issues.

On the equipment side of things...

I recommend selling the gear if possible, and letting your newbie buy it for market price. If necessary, go with the "good buddy" price. Gear that is acquired for free has much less value than gear you pay for. Nobody on the archive will be too ticked off if you are straight up and say that you have somebody local to whom you are giving first refusal.

And I would keep the young man on sword and buckler for a month or two before you give him a pole. Once he goes pole, chances are, he wont go back.

f

[Hartmann]

I wouldn't remove the thrusting tip, but I would focus all training on shot techniques - and perhaps shorten the bla... err stick a bit.

[Sir Brendan TT]

I wouldn't remove the thrusting tip, but I would focus all training on shot techniques - and perhaps shorten the bla... err stick a bit.

I agree. I would not loose the thrusting tip. (I would really miss mine!) but like Hartman said; focus on teaching him the basic shots and then how to incorporate the thrusts in to his fighting.

The whole deal that some people find thrusting un-chivalric is a can of worms I don't want to even think about opening !

[Saritor]

The whole deal that some people find thrusting un-chivalric is a can of worms I don't want to even think about opening !

I'm a fencer, so it had nothing to do with being unchivalrous, just that he'll default to thrusts and not throw "cuts" if he's got the tip to rely on.

I don't entirely agree with the idea, but it's effective early on for teaching them not to think with the point. Give it back to him later, absolutely.

Hell, with the number of madus in this kingdom, I don't think anyone could ever say we think thrusting is unchivalrous.

[Amanda M]

Yeah it's not a chivalry thing in my case at least. I just want to take some time to learn about the other tools in the box before I pull out the ole thrusty standby.

[Count Johnathan]

Many years ago some of the Atenveldt rapier community were challenged to try our sport and a good number of them jumped in to give it a go. Spear fighting seemed to be the first and easiest thing for them to get the hang of as the idea of poking someone is obviously similar. It's really not so much getting used to the weapons but more getting used to the encumbered feeling of heavy armor that seemed to be the hill they had to climb. Some time in kit using a spear will get them used to the armor and you will find that some who are gifted with a sword can use one quite well regardless of what type it is once the armor is no longer a hinderance to them.

[Alex Baird]

As someone who does both forms frequently, I'd suggest the following for someone crossing forms into armored:

Start with footwork, since both forms have sense for distance and timing that are slightly different. Use a gripped defensive, such as a center grip round or heater, as opposed to a strapped. His instincts are going to be toward blocking with his hand. Voids will be more instinctive than static blocking. Range games will be easier concepts for him to jump into.

Mix in a pole weapon, but concentrate on sword. Angulated approaches are going to work better for him than straight in, toe-to-toe stuff. Money shots for him will be to the forearm, thigh and sides of the head: cuts to the core areas will be a new set of attacks.

[Guy Dawkins]

I fought only rapier for about ten years before I took up armoured about 4/5 years ago.
I have been told numerous times that I don't thrust enough.
I hardly use the point. Spear is not my favorite weapon.

Longsword is pure gold!

[Thorsteinn Raudskeggr]

When my step-dad first started fighting he was coming from a fencing background (Class C NV State Champ '73 &'74) he was known for staying too far from his opponent, so much so that they called him "FitzJames the Far Away", and the came up with an interesting solution: Tie him to the opponent and give him a short sword.

So that's what I suggest:
#1) Tie him to his opponent.
#2) Give him a short sword.

If it worked for Master Sir Connor McAuliffe FitzJames, then why not him? (To this day, he is scary good with a shortsword)

[img]http://history.westkingdom.org/Year41/Photos/P104.jpg[/img]

-Ivan

[Simon/Jim]

I think Don Alexander has it nailed. Work on changing the footwork, use a center grip, plus in my opinion don't use a stabbing tip for a bit. Great weapon and spear are also good options. A lot of it though, depends on his abilities and interests.

I also started off with rapier and to be honest, I sucked at heavy weapons for awhile. Sir Conrad (now King of Caid) told me about 7 or 8 years ago to get a big shield and get rid of the stabbing tips (I was fighting 2 stick) and learn how to fight in the common style. Once you learn to fight S&S, you can learn how to deal with it.

[Saritor]

Work on changing the footwork...

If they learned proper footwork to begin with, it wouldn't be an issue which style they were using.

Sir Conrad (now King of...

Dammit, Simon...that freaked me out for a minute. "Conrade did what?!" Then I realized you meant some other Conrad.

[Aaron]

I've decided I can supply him with my excess armour (that I'm getting rid of) and some basics as far as training. That's all I have time for with graduate school.

Slow work when he can visit, just going through the motions. Fighting on Sunday if I can make it.

Thanks everyone!

-Aaron