Greetings,
I have been following the developments in the SCA rapier community with some interest ever since I was introduced to the historic fighting manuals. Reading some of the discussions regarding the future of the Sidesword program leads me to wonder if the rapier community in the SCA has stolen a march on the heavy fighters.
While SCA heavy fighting continues to entrench itself and enforce the status quo the rapier community is actively experimenting with new ideas. In short, people in the rapier community who want to try new things are given avenues to do so while those who wish to try new things in heavy fighting must go to organizations other than the SCA. In doing so, rapier fighting is becoming a much more attractive option for people interested in historic research while heavy fighting stagnates (and attempts to relieve the monotony of this stagnation with ever more fanciful scenarios).
Just a quick observation. I need to think about this some more. Does anyone else have an opinion on the matter?
[SCA] Heavy combat marginalized?
Jester: "...people in the rapier community who want to try new things are given avenues to do so while those who wish to try new things in heavy fighting must go to organizations other than the SCA."
I disagree. The rattan combat community is open to experimentation. In fact, there are very few restrictions on what someone can try. Certainly, alternative armor regulations need to be vetted (though even this is fairly loose), but alternative combat rules are very common. It only takes a tournament organizer to put that latest pet idea into action -- it does not require an act of God. I ran open-format tournaments, challenge-shield tournaments, "black knight" tournaments, tournaments at the barriers, and "pooled", round-robin style tournaments 15 years ago. If we'ld had half a clue, I'd have run counted blows then, too.
Where you will not see ready acceptance is if the Crown Tournament standards are compromised. Rightly or wrongly, acted wounds, bans on grappling, and indestructible shields will remain the rule; at least until a particular monarch is willing to "step out" and explore something new. Even this is not impossible, as reference An tir's recent investigation into a melee-based finals.
With regards... -c-
I disagree. The rattan combat community is open to experimentation. In fact, there are very few restrictions on what someone can try. Certainly, alternative armor regulations need to be vetted (though even this is fairly loose), but alternative combat rules are very common. It only takes a tournament organizer to put that latest pet idea into action -- it does not require an act of God. I ran open-format tournaments, challenge-shield tournaments, "black knight" tournaments, tournaments at the barriers, and "pooled", round-robin style tournaments 15 years ago. If we'ld had half a clue, I'd have run counted blows then, too.
Where you will not see ready acceptance is if the Crown Tournament standards are compromised. Rightly or wrongly, acted wounds, bans on grappling, and indestructible shields will remain the rule; at least until a particular monarch is willing to "step out" and explore something new. Even this is not impossible, as reference An tir's recent investigation into a melee-based finals.
With regards... -c-
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Steve S.
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My guess is that you won't get much changed in a kingdom's marshal's handbook without the endorsement of that kingdom's Chivalry.
My impression has always been that there aren't many knights active in fencing, and even rarer are knights who are knights recognized because of fencing.
So my impression is that fencing is considered a fringe activity by most of the Chivalry, and consequently you side-step all the political games when you decide to make changes with fencing combat rules - most of the Chivalry doesn't consider fencing their game.
There's a lot of "good ole boy" syndrome to be countered whenever you try and rock the boat. My impression is that fencing has less good ole boys to contend with.
Steve
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My impression has always been that there aren't many knights active in fencing, and even rarer are knights who are knights recognized because of fencing.
So my impression is that fencing is considered a fringe activity by most of the Chivalry, and consequently you side-step all the political games when you decide to make changes with fencing combat rules - most of the Chivalry doesn't consider fencing their game.
There's a lot of "good ole boy" syndrome to be countered whenever you try and rock the boat. My impression is that fencing has less good ole boys to contend with.
Steve
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Aidan Cambel
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I know our marshallate in Meridies is always open to suggestion. There have been numerous weapons rules that have recently changed, and Sir Griffin is always happy to hear new ideas. I can not speak for other Kingdoms, I just know that there is a lot of willingness to grow here, although it is under-utilized. I hear people complaining about this-and-that, but they never offer a suggestion or an idea to experiment with.
This past weekend we had a weird tourney that I thought was kind of different, but I'llpost about it on another thread.
In Service,
Aidan
This past weekend we had a weird tourney that I thought was kind of different, but I'llpost about it on another thread.
In Service,
Aidan
Cheval wrote: "I disagree. The rattan combat community is open to experimentation. In fact, there are very few restrictions on what someone can try."
This has not been my experience. I was told, flat out, by the previous Society Earl Marshal that absolutely no deviations from the society level rules would be allowed at any SCA event (to include fighter practices). Furthermore, while there is an established process for getting new materials allowed, there is no established process for experimenting with new ideas or techniques.
This is, I would note, not the same as running a new scenario. I fully agree with you on this matter. SCA heavy fighting is most definitely open to variety when it comes to fighting scenarios, but only when the fighting in those scenarios agrees with the status quo standards. The rapier community is going beyond scenarios to experimenting with standards.
This has not been my experience. I was told, flat out, by the previous Society Earl Marshal that absolutely no deviations from the society level rules would be allowed at any SCA event (to include fighter practices). Furthermore, while there is an established process for getting new materials allowed, there is no established process for experimenting with new ideas or techniques.
This is, I would note, not the same as running a new scenario. I fully agree with you on this matter. SCA heavy fighting is most definitely open to variety when it comes to fighting scenarios, but only when the fighting in those scenarios agrees with the status quo standards. The rapier community is going beyond scenarios to experimenting with standards.
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Baron Eirik
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Well, Despite what you may have heard (Even from the Society Marshal), the Middle Kingdom has a very good experimental weapons procedure that is actively used. Not every experiment gets approved, but you at least get an opportunity to try it. And several things have been approved. And I know of several of our knights that actively participate in the experiments and have lively discussions of the merits/problems of new toys. And we love playing with new toys 
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Baron Eirik
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Baron Eirik
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by jester:
<B>
Cheval wrote: "I disagree. The rattan combat community is open to experimentation. In fact, there are very few restrictions on what someone can try."
This has not been my experience. I was told, flat out, by the previous Society Earl Marshal that absolutely no deviations from the society level rules would be allowed at any SCA event (to include fighter practices). Furthermore, while there is an established process for getting new materials allowed, there is no established process for experimenting with new ideas or techniques.
This is, I would note, not the same as running a new scenario. I fully agree with you on this matter. SCA heavy fighting is most definitely open to variety when it comes to fighting scenarios, but only when the fighting in those scenarios agrees with the status quo standards. The rapier community is going beyond scenarios to experimenting with standards.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That statement concerns me. Alot. What does this do to things like the historical combat series? I am planning a similar tourney in April, is the SEM actually telling us we cannot try alternate forms of SCA combat?
Something needs to be done if that is the case.
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Ewan of Loch Fynne
Reverisco!
"I grow strong again!"
Warcry of the Clan Ewan
<B>
Cheval wrote: "I disagree. The rattan combat community is open to experimentation. In fact, there are very few restrictions on what someone can try."
This has not been my experience. I was told, flat out, by the previous Society Earl Marshal that absolutely no deviations from the society level rules would be allowed at any SCA event (to include fighter practices). Furthermore, while there is an established process for getting new materials allowed, there is no established process for experimenting with new ideas or techniques.
This is, I would note, not the same as running a new scenario. I fully agree with you on this matter. SCA heavy fighting is most definitely open to variety when it comes to fighting scenarios, but only when the fighting in those scenarios agrees with the status quo standards. The rapier community is going beyond scenarios to experimenting with standards.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That statement concerns me. Alot. What does this do to things like the historical combat series? I am planning a similar tourney in April, is the SEM actually telling us we cannot try alternate forms of SCA combat?
Something needs to be done if that is the case.
------------------
Ewan of Loch Fynne
Reverisco!
"I grow strong again!"
Warcry of the Clan Ewan
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FrauHirsch
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by jester:
<B>
This has not been my experience. I was told, flat out, by the previous Society Earl Marshal that absolutely no deviations from the society level rules would be allowed at any SCA event (to include fighter practices). Furthermore, while there is an established process for getting new materials allowed, there is no established process for experimenting with new ideas or techniques.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
My husband, a Caidan Knight, was told exactly the same.
Juliana
<B>
This has not been my experience. I was told, flat out, by the previous Society Earl Marshal that absolutely no deviations from the society level rules would be allowed at any SCA event (to include fighter practices). Furthermore, while there is an established process for getting new materials allowed, there is no established process for experimenting with new ideas or techniques.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
My husband, a Caidan Knight, was told exactly the same.
Juliana
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ewan:
<B> That statement concerns me. Alot. What does this do to things like the historical combat series? I am planning a similar tourney in April, is the SEM actually telling us we cannot try alternate forms of SCA combat?
Something needs to be done if that is the case.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Baron Eirik:
<B> Well, Despite what you may have heard (Even from the Society Marshal), the Middle Kingdom has a very good experimental weapons procedure that is actively used. Not every experiment gets approved, but you at least get an opportunity to try it. And several things have been approved. And I know of several of our knights that actively participate in the experiments and have lively discussions of the merits/problems of new toys. And we love playing with new toys
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
1) Please note that I carefully pointed out that my experience was with the previous, not the current, Society Marshal. While I disagreed with the ruling of the previous SEM I found him to be courteous, helpful, and knowledgable. When he turned down my plan he also informed me of my right to appeal his decision to the BOD.
2) New weapons are covered in the Society Marshals' Handbook (as are new materials). New ways of using a weapon (grabbing the blade, for instance) or ways of obtaining a deviation from the society level rules (allowing the hands to be legal targets, for instance) are not covered. When I asked about this I was told that the procedures for new weapons or materials are the procedures that should be followed for new ideas/techniques or rule deviations. I apologize for the lack of clarity in my statements.
<B> That statement concerns me. Alot. What does this do to things like the historical combat series? I am planning a similar tourney in April, is the SEM actually telling us we cannot try alternate forms of SCA combat?
Something needs to be done if that is the case.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Baron Eirik:
<B> Well, Despite what you may have heard (Even from the Society Marshal), the Middle Kingdom has a very good experimental weapons procedure that is actively used. Not every experiment gets approved, but you at least get an opportunity to try it. And several things have been approved. And I know of several of our knights that actively participate in the experiments and have lively discussions of the merits/problems of new toys. And we love playing with new toys
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
1) Please note that I carefully pointed out that my experience was with the previous, not the current, Society Marshal. While I disagreed with the ruling of the previous SEM I found him to be courteous, helpful, and knowledgable. When he turned down my plan he also informed me of my right to appeal his decision to the BOD.
2) New weapons are covered in the Society Marshals' Handbook (as are new materials). New ways of using a weapon (grabbing the blade, for instance) or ways of obtaining a deviation from the society level rules (allowing the hands to be legal targets, for instance) are not covered. When I asked about this I was told that the procedures for new weapons or materials are the procedures that should be followed for new ideas/techniques or rule deviations. I apologize for the lack of clarity in my statements.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Steve -SoFC-:
<B>My impression has always been that there aren't many knights active in fencing, and even rarer are knights who are knights recognized because of fencing.
Steve
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Quite a number of knights in Ansteorra fence, including several Counts. And as a secondary martial activity, I do not think that a peerage should be awarded for it.
<B>My impression has always been that there aren't many knights active in fencing, and even rarer are knights who are knights recognized because of fencing.
Steve
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Quite a number of knights in Ansteorra fence, including several Counts. And as a secondary martial activity, I do not think that a peerage should be awarded for it.
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Steve S.
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"And as a secondary martial activity, I do not think that a peerage should be awarded for it."
For the record, I wasn't suggesting that there should be. In fact, I don't care one way or the other.
I'm just suggesting that one reason the fencing guys don't catch a lot of flak for changing things might be because there is no exclusive club of old timers who think you're pissing in their corn flakes if you try and change it.
I know a lot of knights fence. It's my impression, though, that knights in general don't consider themselves the custodians of fencing combat, unlike heavy combat.
Steve
For the record, I wasn't suggesting that there should be. In fact, I don't care one way or the other.
I'm just suggesting that one reason the fencing guys don't catch a lot of flak for changing things might be because there is no exclusive club of old timers who think you're pissing in their corn flakes if you try and change it.
I know a lot of knights fence. It's my impression, though, that knights in general don't consider themselves the custodians of fencing combat, unlike heavy combat.
Steve
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losthelm
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I think that it is easyer to get new fencing ideas in play are based soly on the fact that it is a smaller camunity and a hell of a lot easyer to get the ok to test new weapons band guns styles ans as far as armour restrictions the exceptable matereals or testing for other matereals is clearly listed so that even I can figure it out.
most of us have to admit that or equivalant matereal is a little open ended
as apoed to any matereal that can with stand the matereal test.
on top of that most fencers take them selves seriosly everywhere but on the field.
even to the point of being down right silly.
ask some one about pennsic beavers or the fish.
one day I a repersentation of dinner on the field used as a parry device.
most of us have to admit that or equivalant matereal is a little open ended
as apoed to any matereal that can with stand the matereal test.
on top of that most fencers take them selves seriosly everywhere but on the field.
even to the point of being down right silly.
ask some one about pennsic beavers or the fish.
one day I a repersentation of dinner on the field used as a parry device.
Well, Jester, I find this quite interesting as even in our own kingdom I have seen tournaments that allow for the experimentation. (I will grant you, not for several years though...just other things interesting people I guess). I have been in tourneys that allowed for shots to the hand (counted) and lower leg as "experimental" tourneys...so I know they have existed in the past.
My suggestion would be to propose a specific tournament to our new Kingdom Earl Marshal (I would suggest keeping it to "one wierdness") and see what he says. Point it out as being the same as trying a "new material" and see where it goes.
Personally, I'll bet, that by going through channels, it flies.
Mav
[This message has been edited by mavrikii (edited 12-09-2002).]
My suggestion would be to propose a specific tournament to our new Kingdom Earl Marshal (I would suggest keeping it to "one wierdness") and see what he says. Point it out as being the same as trying a "new material" and see where it goes.
Personally, I'll bet, that by going through channels, it flies.
Mav
[This message has been edited by mavrikii (edited 12-09-2002).]
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Jean Richard Malcolmson
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Alcyoneus:
Quite a number of knights in Ansteorra fence, including several Counts. And as a secondary martial activity, I do not think that a peerage should be awarded for it.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
There was this "wire weenie" Don Miguel who repeatedly won the Queen's Champion tournament, which is the premier Ansteorran rapier tournament. He decided to try his hand at chivalric combat. About four years ago, we started calling him Sir Miguel. As of last month, we now call him His Royal Highness Miguel. There is a lot of crossover both ways in Ansteorra. This is a good thing.
Regards,
Jean Richard
Ansteorra
Quite a number of knights in Ansteorra fence, including several Counts. And as a secondary martial activity, I do not think that a peerage should be awarded for it.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
There was this "wire weenie" Don Miguel who repeatedly won the Queen's Champion tournament, which is the premier Ansteorran rapier tournament. He decided to try his hand at chivalric combat. About four years ago, we started calling him Sir Miguel. As of last month, we now call him His Royal Highness Miguel. There is a lot of crossover both ways in Ansteorra. This is a good thing.
Regards,
Jean Richard
Ansteorra
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Siggy
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jean Richard Malcolmson:
<B> There was this "wire weenie" Don Miguel who repeatedly won the Queen's Champion tournament, which is the premier Ansteorran rapier tournament. He decided to try his hand at chivalric combat. About four years ago, we started calling him Sir Miguel. As of last month, we now call him His Royal Highness Miguel. There is a lot of crossover both ways in Ansteorra. This is a good thing.
Regards,
Jean Richard
Ansteorra</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
There was also quite a bit of crossover in Northshield, where I started out. I have a feeling that if we Calontiri would get over our prejudices and give it a shot, we'd have similar crossovers. I found fencing to be a nice warm-up or cool-down for heavy fighting....
Siggy
<B> There was this "wire weenie" Don Miguel who repeatedly won the Queen's Champion tournament, which is the premier Ansteorran rapier tournament. He decided to try his hand at chivalric combat. About four years ago, we started calling him Sir Miguel. As of last month, we now call him His Royal Highness Miguel. There is a lot of crossover both ways in Ansteorra. This is a good thing.
Regards,
Jean Richard
Ansteorra</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
There was also quite a bit of crossover in Northshield, where I started out. I have a feeling that if we Calontiri would get over our prejudices and give it a shot, we'd have similar crossovers. I found fencing to be a nice warm-up or cool-down for heavy fighting....
Siggy
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Richard Blackmoore
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Quote: "I know a lot of knights fence. It's my impression, though, that knights in general don't consider themselves the custodians of fencing combat, unlike heavy combat.
Steve"
True. Mainly because SCA fencing has/had little to to with historical armoured combat in the 'old' days. Now that they are trying to get away from foils and such, the fencing becomes more interesting to the heavy commnunity, but we in general certainly feel that it is currently in such a form that it does not fall under 'our' governance; it is a separate combat form run by those who practice it frequently and hopefully those who have much more of a clue about it. Some knights are proficient fencers, but for the most part the fencers tend to be a separate group.
Richard Blackmoore
KSCA
Edited because it should have says does NOT fall under our...
[This message has been edited by Richard Blackmoore (edited 12-10-2002).]
Steve"
True. Mainly because SCA fencing has/had little to to with historical armoured combat in the 'old' days. Now that they are trying to get away from foils and such, the fencing becomes more interesting to the heavy commnunity, but we in general certainly feel that it is currently in such a form that it does not fall under 'our' governance; it is a separate combat form run by those who practice it frequently and hopefully those who have much more of a clue about it. Some knights are proficient fencers, but for the most part the fencers tend to be a separate group.
Richard Blackmoore
KSCA
Edited because it should have says does NOT fall under our...
[This message has been edited by Richard Blackmoore (edited 12-10-2002).]
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Bob H
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by FrauHirsch:
<B> My husband, a Caidan Knight, was told exactly the same.
Juliana
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
As was I, by the Meridian Earl Marshall at the time. I'm very much one of Sir Conal's fans and I think he did a great job as Earl Marshall, but he plainly didn't have any wiggle room on the issue we discussed (I had asked to experiment with halfswording).
Bob/Gaston
<B> My husband, a Caidan Knight, was told exactly the same.
Juliana
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
As was I, by the Meridian Earl Marshall at the time. I'm very much one of Sir Conal's fans and I think he did a great job as Earl Marshall, but he plainly didn't have any wiggle room on the issue we discussed (I had asked to experiment with halfswording).
Bob/Gaston
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
I'm just suggesting that one reason the fencing guys don't catch a lot of flak for changing things might be because there is no exclusive club of old timers who think you're pissing in their corn flakes if you try and change it.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Anyone who believes this has not spend any time on the rapier-net mailing list.
I'm just suggesting that one reason the fencing guys don't catch a lot of flak for changing things might be because there is no exclusive club of old timers who think you're pissing in their corn flakes if you try and change it.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Anyone who believes this has not spend any time on the rapier-net mailing list.
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Siggy
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Alcyoneus:
<B>You're not on the Calonlist, are you Siggy?
(a little bit of a storm over the topic at the moment)
Just a quiet reminder, on occasion when I'm in Ansteorra, I do fence once in awhile, and have an authorization card from there for it.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I am on the Calonlist. I even contributed a little bit to the s**t storm. When Pavel tried to claim that rapiers were post 1600 I posted the links to the HACA website's fechtbuchs that showed rapiers prior to 1600.
Siggy
<B>You're not on the Calonlist, are you Siggy?
(a little bit of a storm over the topic at the moment)Just a quiet reminder, on occasion when I'm in Ansteorra, I do fence once in awhile, and have an authorization card from there for it.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I am on the Calonlist. I even contributed a little bit to the s**t storm. When Pavel tried to claim that rapiers were post 1600 I posted the links to the HACA website's fechtbuchs that showed rapiers prior to 1600.
Siggy
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Jon Eppler
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Some gasoline for the fire.
What happens to the chivalry when a significant portion of the fighting community is participating in an activity other than traditional heavy fighting? (An activity that, despite howls of denial to the contrary, is often historically more accurate than heavy fighting
)
Has heavy fighting fossilized?
What happens to the chivalry when a significant portion of the fighting community is participating in an activity other than traditional heavy fighting? (An activity that, despite howls of denial to the contrary, is often historically more accurate than heavy fighting
)
Has heavy fighting fossilized?
Just to go against your point. The SCA rattan community seems to be growing not getting smaller. If you go by numbers of fighters authorized per Kingdom and those that are showing up at large wars like Gulf Wars and Pansic you will see the numbers on a rise. As the SCA grows so does the fighters, rapier and rattan. I doubt that will change much in the future.
Vebrand
[This message has been edited by Vebrand (edited 12-10-2002).]
Vebrand
[This message has been edited by Vebrand (edited 12-10-2002).]
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Steve S.
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I agree, too. I still think they main image of "armoured warrior" for mainstream SCA folks is the image of the knight in shining armour, not the 3 Musketeers. I realize that "fencing" happened much earlier than the 3 Musketeers, but I suspect that that era, along with Erol Flynn, is what comes to mind when most people think "fencing".
Steve
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Steve
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Guest
None of the knights in my kingdom fence. At least not at events. I don't think I need to point out where I live.
It's hard to consider the chivalry open minded about new ideas in heavy combat when they won't let people fence mostly out of spite.
I fenced a bit while attending University and let me tell you I think it made me a better fighter. I was certainly a better fencer than other new fencers because I had fought heavy.
The attitude of the chivalry as it pertains to trying new stuff is largely why I don't play much anymore. That and because I think heavy combat has become a bit soft.
I want to fight some combats using more period victory rules. The SCA will not allow it under there current system and it's very hard to change anything when people strongly discourage experimentation. I'm basically tired of trying to butt heads with people who think they know everything.
SCA combat grows every time there is a blockbuster medieval or fantasy movie. There have been several of those the last few years. Also despite the fact that there are still lots of ugly plastic paladins we have improved the standard of our over all armoured appearance over the last decade or so. We look cooler and more legit. It's hard to maintain the romantic notion of "Knights in Shining Armour" that many people join the SCA for if you are surrounded by blue pickle barrel armour. When does quantity equate quality? Lots of people watch pro wrestling. That does not make it high quality entertainment.
It's hard to consider the chivalry open minded about new ideas in heavy combat when they won't let people fence mostly out of spite.
I fenced a bit while attending University and let me tell you I think it made me a better fighter. I was certainly a better fencer than other new fencers because I had fought heavy.
The attitude of the chivalry as it pertains to trying new stuff is largely why I don't play much anymore. That and because I think heavy combat has become a bit soft.
I want to fight some combats using more period victory rules. The SCA will not allow it under there current system and it's very hard to change anything when people strongly discourage experimentation. I'm basically tired of trying to butt heads with people who think they know everything.
SCA combat grows every time there is a blockbuster medieval or fantasy movie. There have been several of those the last few years. Also despite the fact that there are still lots of ugly plastic paladins we have improved the standard of our over all armoured appearance over the last decade or so. We look cooler and more legit. It's hard to maintain the romantic notion of "Knights in Shining Armour" that many people join the SCA for if you are surrounded by blue pickle barrel armour. When does quantity equate quality? Lots of people watch pro wrestling. That does not make it high quality entertainment.
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Steve S.
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I think the Chivalry does a good job at preserving stability within SCA heavy combat. And they provide an esprit de corps, and something to aspire to. It does slow down change, but I think that's a good thing with SCA combat.
I didn't want anyone to think that because I'm pointing out why I think things are easier to change in fencing that I have a problem with the way things are done on the heavy side. By and large, I am quite content with SCA policies in general.
Steve
I didn't want anyone to think that because I'm pointing out why I think things are easier to change in fencing that I have a problem with the way things are done on the heavy side. By and large, I am quite content with SCA policies in general.
Steve
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Asbjorn Johansen
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There are a lot of interesting idea’s bouncing around this thread.
Jester,
I think you are correct, the fencing community, as a group, is stealing a march on the armoured fighting community, when it comes to moving towards a better historic recreation of combat. (That said, the historic combat enthusiasts within the community are just as acutely aware of the current drawbacks to their methods as many of us on this board are aware of armoured combats deficiencies, they just seem to be more willing to change). I can’t wait to see the side sword being practiced in the East.
I’ve hear a lot of theories of why the fencers are more willing to adapt as new research becomes available, but what ever the reason, the certainly seem to be more willing to make changes and additions to the over all rules structure then the armoured combat community has been.
There has been some experimentation in armoured combat, but its been done by working in relative gray areas of the rules. And if you don’t want to be in direct violation when putting on a particular experimental tourney you have to be very careful with exactly how you word any particular change. While these experiments have been relatively wide spread, they’ve lacked the depth of adoption that would drive SCA level rules changes. The difficulties you run into are that its not clear how much authority was intended to devolve down the Kingdom EM’s when it comes to rules experimentation, and the feed back that has been given by various Society EM has at times seemed contradictory. Also remember that what is done at various events when it comes to experimentation, or even just “funâ€
Jester,
I think you are correct, the fencing community, as a group, is stealing a march on the armoured fighting community, when it comes to moving towards a better historic recreation of combat. (That said, the historic combat enthusiasts within the community are just as acutely aware of the current drawbacks to their methods as many of us on this board are aware of armoured combats deficiencies, they just seem to be more willing to change). I can’t wait to see the side sword being practiced in the East.
I’ve hear a lot of theories of why the fencers are more willing to adapt as new research becomes available, but what ever the reason, the certainly seem to be more willing to make changes and additions to the over all rules structure then the armoured combat community has been.
There has been some experimentation in armoured combat, but its been done by working in relative gray areas of the rules. And if you don’t want to be in direct violation when putting on a particular experimental tourney you have to be very careful with exactly how you word any particular change. While these experiments have been relatively wide spread, they’ve lacked the depth of adoption that would drive SCA level rules changes. The difficulties you run into are that its not clear how much authority was intended to devolve down the Kingdom EM’s when it comes to rules experimentation, and the feed back that has been given by various Society EM has at times seemed contradictory. Also remember that what is done at various events when it comes to experimentation, or even just “funâ€
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Diglach Mac Cein
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Something to point out -
For the fencers, there is a LOT more written evidence of how they fought back when.
For armoured combatants, it is much more limited, and non-existant unless you are froma certain time period / persona.
I do 500 - 600 AD Ireland - no feuchtbuchs for my persona to learn from!
Now, within the rules, we do a lot of experimentation in the fight practice I attend - different shield presses (esepcially centrgrip vs. heaters), angles of attack, spearwork, etc. Fortunately, the Middle Kingdom has a good experimentation program - and have added several new weapon changes / fighting changes over the last several years. Yeah, the process might be slower in some cases (like face thrust), and not everyone's "pet project" get approved (like the low compression tip), but the vast majority of fighters I talk to are happy with it.
I guess the long and short is that armoured combat, by design, decision and in some cases necessity, develops more by it own experimentation, having less "hard evidence" than fencing. But I'm sure that the moves from the feuchtbuchs didn't spring whole grown from the minds of their authors - I'll bet a lot of time was spent experimenting to find what worked for them too.
Maybe someone shoul write a feuchtbuch for SCA combat?
Dilan
For the fencers, there is a LOT more written evidence of how they fought back when.
For armoured combatants, it is much more limited, and non-existant unless you are froma certain time period / persona.
I do 500 - 600 AD Ireland - no feuchtbuchs for my persona to learn from!
Now, within the rules, we do a lot of experimentation in the fight practice I attend - different shield presses (esepcially centrgrip vs. heaters), angles of attack, spearwork, etc. Fortunately, the Middle Kingdom has a good experimentation program - and have added several new weapon changes / fighting changes over the last several years. Yeah, the process might be slower in some cases (like face thrust), and not everyone's "pet project" get approved (like the low compression tip), but the vast majority of fighters I talk to are happy with it.
I guess the long and short is that armoured combat, by design, decision and in some cases necessity, develops more by it own experimentation, having less "hard evidence" than fencing. But I'm sure that the moves from the feuchtbuchs didn't spring whole grown from the minds of their authors - I'll bet a lot of time was spent experimenting to find what worked for them too.
Maybe someone shoul write a feuchtbuch for SCA combat?
Dilan
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Steve S.
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Heh, I think some people already have! I remember reading the OldCastle fighting book!
Steve
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Steve
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Forth Armoury
Highly authentic, affordable riveted maille.
The measure of a man is not in the steel of his skin but in the steel of his heart. - S. Sheldon
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Winterfell
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So just out of couriosity.
Making it a requirement that to be a knight in the SCA one must be proficient in ALL forms of combat will never happen?
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"As long as there are fanatics there will always be heretics"
http://www.caerdubh.com/coeurdeleon/index.html
Making it a requirement that to be a knight in the SCA one must be proficient in ALL forms of combat will never happen?
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"As long as there are fanatics there will always be heretics"
http://www.caerdubh.com/coeurdeleon/index.html
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Steve S.
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I for one wouldn't want it to.
Steve
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Forth Armoury
Highly authentic, affordable riveted maille.
The measure of a man is not in the steel of his skin but in the steel of his heart. - S. Sheldon
Steve
------------------
Forth Armoury
Highly authentic, affordable riveted maille.
The measure of a man is not in the steel of his skin but in the steel of his heart. - S. Sheldon
What do you consider all forms?
If you consider fencing, then not allow kingdoms allow it. Should you require one Knight to do something another does not?
If you consider live weapons the use is limited in some areas.
I will not open the combat archery can of worms. That has been beat to death on this list.
If you are talking heavy weapons then I would say it should be expected. As a knight I am stronger in some styles than others. I fight all forms as does most every knight I know.
Vebrand
If you consider fencing, then not allow kingdoms allow it. Should you require one Knight to do something another does not?
If you consider live weapons the use is limited in some areas.
I will not open the combat archery can of worms. That has been beat to death on this list.
If you are talking heavy weapons then I would say it should be expected. As a knight I am stronger in some styles than others. I fight all forms as does most every knight I know.
Vebrand
Vebrand: "I fight all forms as does most every knight I know."
If that includes single-handed, double-ended poking stick, then count me out [img]http://www.armourarchive.org/ubb/mad.gif[/img].
Otherwise, what he said [img]http://www.armourarchive.org/ubb/cool.gif[/img]... -c-
[This message has been edited by cheval (edited 12-14-2002).]
If that includes single-handed, double-ended poking stick, then count me out [img]http://www.armourarchive.org/ubb/mad.gif[/img].
Otherwise, what he said [img]http://www.armourarchive.org/ubb/cool.gif[/img]... -c-
[This message has been edited by cheval (edited 12-14-2002).]