Earliest gambeson was no gambeson????

[James B.]

Halvgrimr

I believe Glen is talking about the tests done by the royal armories on longbows vs maille, vs. padding, vs. maille and padding also the weapons that made Britain had some good tests on the lance and longbow against variations maille, padding, and coats of plate.

[Halvgrimr]

I always forget those sleazy archers

[Glen K]

Halv,

Yea, James beat me to it: I should have specified that what the RA studies showed is that padding coupled with mail (as opposed to just mail) works a better vs. "penetration rounds", both high velocity (arrows) and low velocity (spears, swordpoints, etc). As to waht the physics is behind it I couldn't begin to tell you; I just remember the neat video footage of the tests.

I want to say that it showed better protection vs. sharp/blunt edge strikes, but I can't remember that part. Unfortunately, I don't remember it going into the question of padding OVER mail (ala a jazeraint), which has always intrigued me. As I said above, based on experience I've certainly moved away from the "big padded undergarment" team (which I tried for a while) into the "very minimal padding" team, but I personally believe that there was some sort of purpose-built under-mail garment, whether loose or attached. However, I don't have much real experience (and practially no documentation to speak of) to back that up 100%.

One other factor that leads me to think about more-or-less substantial padding is combat sustainability; in other words, sure mail w/ a linen shirt can protect you from a telling blow, but after said blow do you have to stop to rest/recuperate/recover? Or has your armour minimized the "hit" enough to allow you to continue in action?

To bring it back to where I started, I'm also starting to think that a primary concern of those who did/could wear mail for protection was missle fire, and not direct hand-to-hand combat. I'm not saying hand-to-hand was not a concern, but when mail was done right it could (in the time we're talking about, right up through the 1150s at least) make one almost arrow-proof, against smaller European self-bows but certainly against the "lighter" arrows of the Saracen foe(s). Given the proclivity Vikings had for archery, I'd have to think it was a major concern for them as well...

[fghthty545y]

James,

I think the progress of padding over armour might be far less standard than you make it sound. By an large through the 14th and into the 15th my guess is under padding is much more common in text. That said there are many accounts with both. I have rarely found a text that lists over padding over. At Agincourt for example I do not know of any evidence from text of over armour but in most of the major French and English sources of men that were present they agree the 'gambeson' was under the mail and plate defences.

Regardless I am not sure having the padding over, under or inbetween make much difference. It seems wearing something, padded or not, was very common throughout the high and late medieval period into the 1410s or 1420s so it is hard to say how common any of the systems of defence were.

The 'Jupon' of the Black Prince. Something I have been very interested in as well. I contacted a number of textile specialists while I was in Southampton to get some information on it. Of the half dozen people I found who were familair with it, I know only two people who have actually handled it. Both who had looke at Prince Edward's 'Jupon' all agreed the size is much to small for armour under, the torso and sleeves. Further the sleeves are not straight across around the elbow and very irregular, which seems to indicate they were longer than the elbow at one point, perhaps long-sleeved. To me, unable to handle it etc. I see nothing to make me think it has to be a jupon. The only argument for it being so is a poorly thought out one saying it is too fancy to wear under armour which is just silly. He likely had PE written on his braes for crying out loud and lovely leopard designs on them. I have found no evidence that makes me think it is an overarmour though if anyone has some I'd love to see it.

Rod,

I think it is good to have modern first person accounts on how such combinations work and help deal with the gaps in our hard and fast evidence. Up until the last quarter of the 12th century we have very limited evidence for padding under armour in Europe. Clearly these guys were tough and could have done as you do is such padding was around for use. There is no doubt that mail is better than nothing. I'd much prefer mail over nothing myself. But they were pragmatic as well. They did everything they could to avoid pain, injury and death. My guess is that as soon as padding came around they added it to there kit as soon as they possibly could.

So to me the question lands on what evidence there is of c. pre1200 under armour padding. There is not much and to me the individual needs make their choice when we are left with such grey areas as you did. I am thinking about doing a wool and linen tunic with a few layers for my 10th century England kit as under armour for the same reason. There seems no proof of padding for this era under the mail. I like the extra defence and want a tunic that will keep the other ones from getting dirty all the time.

I would never have jousted without padding... to be fair I was unsure how I felt about jousting in mail. I took hits with a lance when I played with jousting that I would really wonder how I would have fared without my heavier harness. You are much braver than I am! To be fair though it may have been that I would have been fine. Since I do not figure I will ever get into jousting again it is unlikely I will ever know.

This really is a fantastic post. I think textile armour is probably one of the least done types of armour from the medieval period and it is sad as after spending as much time as I have looking in primary documents they are very much a major part of military life in the High and Late medieval period.

RPM

I have never seen the Black Prince jupon in person, though just from looking at the pictures, the sleeves to look pretty tight, the torso, not as much.
Perhaps the arm defences were worn over the sleeves, and a tight fitting breastplate was worn under the garment. This would match up with the effigy, too.

[Russ Mitchell]

Glen, my next round of research, if I can ever get back on my feet financially, will directly address the jazeraint-type questions, and expand out those tests with a lot of materials for which we have no computable modulus.

[RandallMoffett]

Jojo,

I asked for measurements of the chest at its widest at one point but never was given them. All I can say is that both people who handled it figured once there was a body in it the chest and arms would be much to tight for armour under it.

To me it goes back to one thing. Not size or numbers but the statement that the 'jupon' was much to nice to be under armour, which is just silly, is what 'decided' it to be over armour. I have seen almost 0 real evidence presented for it being over the armour and after having spoken with others who had researched it in person I am less convinced that it is over armour than before. Sadly this situation is not that uncommon in reenactment circle or even academia.

RPM

[fghthty545y]

Jojo,

I asked for measurements of the chest at its widest at one point but never was given them. All I can say is that both people who handled it figured once there was a body in it the chest and arms would be much to tight for armour under it.

To me it goes back to one thing. Not size or numbers but the statement that the 'jupon' was much to nice to be under armour, which is just silly, is what 'decided' it to be over armour. I have seen almost 0 real evidence presented for it being over the armour and after having spoken with others who had researched it in person I am less convinced that it is over armour than before. Sadly this situation is not that uncommon in reenactment circle or even academia.

RPM

I notice when sleeved "jupons" are shown over armour in art, they are always loose and extremely baggy, nothing like the Black Prince garment. Anything tight would probably bind up the armour.

[fghthty545y]

Also, to the OP, if you look at 13th century French effigies, a good ammount of them have gambenson sleeves visible, like this one.

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/unknown_de_foro_a/image/2226/original/

[TassilosRache]

Has any one in the "linen shirt underneath maille" taken "a walk" in their equippement?

I can assure You that lack of at least the most basic padding (i.e. two sets of tunics, one woollen, one linen) makes You very uncomfortable after the first 5 miles into the march. Especially when You are marching in hot or wet weather.

[Halvgrimr]

Uh yeah, I walked from the very back of the event to Senlac Hill at Hastings in nothing more than two linen tunics (two days in a row) with flat ring riveted mail and it wasn't an issue.

Ive been hit full force in not much more (I wear a gambeson but its so old its really just a shell - the padding has mostly disintegrated) doing SCA combat.

Then again I am far from skin and bones so perhaps my 'natural padding' is the difference.

[Raeven]

Also, to the OP, if you look at 13th century French effigies, a good ammount of them have gambenson sleeves visible, like this one.

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/unknown_de_foro_a/image/2226/original/

Is that a gambeson or splinted vambraces?

[SvenskaFlicka]

Viking Age Gambesons are hard to research, as I found when doing research to make this: http://costumegirl.wordpress.com/2010/0 ... -gambeson/ There aren't any surviving pieces or really any sources describing them. There are mentions of gambesons, but. . . really good sources are pretty scarce.

So I just took what they would have had at the time and made one. It's more or less a "T" tunic, 27 layers of heavy raw linen, hand-quilted.

The guy I made it for says it is easy and cool to fight in, not binding, and comfortable. We tested a test piece made the same way and it stopped arrows easily.

This is all very experimental and hypothetical, and I would like to try to do more with things like that in the future, but it's a start.

(Please keep in mind that this is the blog post, and I actually have a serious paper on it elsewhere.)[/i]

[Glen K]

There are mentions of gambesons, but. . .

If you happen to be willing to share those, I'd be very greatful! The paper too, for that matter...

[James B.]

Has any one in the "linen shirt underneath maille" taken "a walk" in their equippement?

I can assure You that lack of at least the most basic padding (i.e. two sets of tunics, one woollen, one linen) makes You very uncomfortable after the first 5 miles into the march. Especially when You are marching in hot or wet weather.

I wear a woolen tunic under my maille for 11th c. Spent two days in a row in it at Hastings in 06 no issue. Fought in it at Pennsic with a light wool tunic under it, again no problem.

For 15th century I have a wool doublet on with a 12 layer jack over it. I have no issue wearing the maille all day, marching, shooting archery, or taking a sword blow in it.

[fghthty545y]

Also, to the OP, if you look at 13th century French effigies, a good ammount of them have gambenson sleeves visible, like this one.

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/unknown_de_foro_a/image/2226/original/

Is that a gambeson or splinted vambraces?

I have wondered that, too. Below are two drawings that support both.
On the first one, you'll notice his "sleeves" are meant to be covered with mail, and they also look like the detail around his neck, suggesting it's a gambeson.
One the second one, however, I'm more convnced they're splints, as they aren't covered by anything else.

[img]http://effigiesandbrasses.com/static/monuments/large/guillaume_de_villebeon_s115_r2056.jpg[/img]

[img]http://effigiesandbrasses.com/static/monuments/large/jean_de_chatillon_s115_r2049.jpg[/img]

[fghthty545y]

Jojo,

I asked for measurements of the chest at its widest at one point but never was given them. All I can say is that both people who handled it figured once there was a body in it the chest and arms would be much to tight for armour under it.

To me it goes back to one thing. Not size or numbers but the statement that the 'jupon' was much to nice to be under armour, which is just silly, is what 'decided' it to be over armour. I have seen almost 0 real evidence presented for it being over the armour and after having spoken with others who had researched it in person I am less convinced that it is over armour than before. Sadly this situation is not that uncommon in reenactment circle or even academia.

RPM

One of the MyArmoury features states that the Black Prince jupon is closely tailored to the body, and may have been a ceramonial garment.
To me, it does indeed look highly tailored, which would indicate it was not designed to go over armour.
I also find the "ceramonial garment theory" plausible. Or perhaps it was made as a funeral piece, similar to the shield.

[Dan Howard]

There are mentions of gambesons, but. . .

If you happen to be willing to share those, I'd be very greatful! The paper too, for that matter...

Yes please. So far nobody has produced a single relevant source for padding being worn under mail in western Europe during the time in question.

[RenJunkie]

What effigy is that first on, JoJo?

Thanks!
Christopher

[fghthty545y]

What effigy is that first on, JoJo?

Thanks!
Christopher

It (and the other) I found on "Effigies and Brasses".

[RenJunkie]

Yeah, but who is it? Time frame and country? There's better than 1700 effigies on there.

Thanks!
Christopher

[chris19d]

I think this thread is relevant to this discussion, showing just how damaging the kind of light non percussive blows that mail with out a padded under garment will protect against fairly well.

Edit to add the 1/2 a sentence I forgot to type....

[RenJunkie]

But maille takes the cutting ability pretty much out of the equation. After that it's more about impact.

Unless I'm misunderstanding what makes maille work.

Thanks!
Christopher

[fghthty545y]

Oh, woops, late.
The first one is French, about 1300.
Highly typical of the time/place.

[Glaukos the Athenian]

Outside gambesons

Notice arroes sticking on crossbowman on left, and man at arms and archer in the center. What was under the gambeson if anything?

Chroniques de France ou de St Denis" 1358 MS Royal 20 CVII

[Galfrid atte grene]

Those guys are almost certainly wearing mail and some sort of plate body armour under there.

I'm not sure why you have it labeled as 1358 though, the British Library dates it as 1380-1400.

[Glaukos the Athenian]

Those guys are almost certainly wearing mail and some sort of plate body armour under there.

I'm not sure why you have it labeled as 1358 though, the British Library dates it as 1380-1400.

That is the date mentioned on "The Great Warbow"

http://www.amazon.com/Great-Warbow-Hast ... 0750931671

[Galfrid atte grene]

Those guys are almost certainly wearing mail and some sort of plate body armour under there.

I'm not sure why you have it labeled as 1358 though, the British Library dates it as 1380-1400.

That is the date mentioned on "The Great Warbow"

http://www.amazon.com/Great-Warbow-Hast ... 0750931671

That's the date of the jacquerie revolt in France, a subject this manuscript deals with. Almost certainly not the date of creation. The full data for Royal 20 C VII is here.

[Glaukos the Athenian]

Those guys are almost certainly wearing mail and some sort of plate body armour under there.

I'm not sure why you have it labeled as 1358 though, the British Library dates it as 1380-1400.

That is the date mentioned on "The Great Warbow"

http://www.amazon.com/Great-Warbow-Hast ... 0750931671

That's the date of the jacquerie revolt in France, a subject this manuscript deals with. Almost certainly not the date of creation. The full data for Royal 20 C VII is here.

Thanks!!! that is awesome...

here comes my ADD

are the spears holding hot dogs supposed to be the Godendags?
http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminated ... llID=42569

[Endre Fodstad]

Ach, I'll just repost some old threads:
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... vapntreiyu
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... vapntreiyu
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... vapntreiyu

They all contain the available norse references to textile armour I knew of at the time and nobody has bettered Hjalmar Falk at that job since I wrote those posts.