[SCA] Has heavy fighting ossified?

jester · Post by **jester** » Thu Mar 06, 2003 5:59 pm

I have become convinced that heavy fighting is the SCA has become stagnant. We see new scenarios (some of them even based in history) but the rules appear to be graven in stone. The policy of the past two Marshals of the Society has been 'No deviation from the rules. Period.' and requests for experiments with new techniques have been turned down. The Marshallate has gone so far as to ban some things which might be perceived by the public as being part of heavy fighting.

In contrast to this is the fencing community. The current sidesword experiment is very interesting. Here is a link to the Society level guidelines for the experiment: http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~wew/fencing/sca/sca-sidesword.html

While the heavy community seems intent on entrenching the current rule set (which is a great rule set and does what it is intended to do), the fencing community is broadening the scope of their activities.

Does anyone else share this perception?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Thu Mar 06, 2003 6:25 pm

You muddy the waters of your title with your own responce.

You should have mentioned Side Sword in a different thread, as it stands now, you're asking for our opinions on both the side-sword experement and the so-called stagnation of Heavy Fighting.

1. My take on Side Sword.

You've taken Schlager fighting, and done two things to it... 1. You've made it dangerous. And 2. You've made it a advertisement for Del-Tin.

I love schlager fighting, and I really do despize the side-sword experement, and I think its only a matter of time before people who are not brainwashed in the field of swishy-pokey realize just how dangerous you've made it. (obviously not you specifically).

Even with "Pulled Blows" you are going to have the stray accidental hard cut. And the armour requirements (Especially those concerning the back of the head) do not sufficiently take that into consideration.

I could go on... but I'm not gonna.

Let me just summize that the Side-Sword experiment, in my own honest opinion is a disaster waiting to happen.

2. Sagnation of Heavy Fighting.

This is complete and utter bullshit.

I attended my first tourney 11 years ago. The presentation of the fighters on the field was equivelant to the extra's in Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome. Compare that to the tourney I attended last year. I did not see a single fighter with exposed plastic. In fact, three of the fighters presented themself is such an authentic form that I had to struggle to find fault.

Apperance asside.

Pas de Arms are becoming more frequent. Tourney Companies are more popular. Tourneys with behourd style competion, matched weapons, fighting at the barrier, fights to a # of blows... I could go on.

These things are the exception to the rule yes, but you will not find a single schlager among the 10-12 light fighters at my fighter's practice. So please do not say that the Side Sword experiment is not the exception to the rule as well.

Stagnant... Definately not.

------------------
Matthew Broadway (mattbroadway1974@yahoo.com)
Founder of The Armour Archive
Jack of All Trades... Master of none.

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Thu Mar 06, 2003 6:33 pm

There are limits to everything. The rules for a particular type of combat are not limiting me, because I have tried to move beyond the SCA as sport combat. In fact, combat is a huge part of my SCA life, but I am trying to use the field of battle as a place to study the social mores and traditions of the 14th century. I also like to use SCA combat as a way to learn about my own character, and the character of others.
We recognize that SCA combat is always struggling against stagnation. Your persona is always calling out to you, asking for a more medieval world in which to re-appear. Garb, gear and other traditions and aspects of medieval life are always there to study and bring back to our game.
You can always try to fight better using our system, and you can try to make SCA tournaments more accurate. The problem is that many people are not experiencing stagnation, the way the SCA is now is fine with them and they don't need to move forward into the past.
I think the Counted Blows Dispensation is one of the coolest things to ever happen to SCA combat. There are new places to explore, you just may find that you are on a lonely road. Many of the Kingdom marshalls are seriously worried about people being hurt- that is a big concern for them.
Look to the past. Try to apply period techniques to legal SCA combat. Improve your kit. Learn knightly speech. Read the chronicles and the books of chivalry, and try to apply the world you read about to the world of SCA combat. Have faith!
-Vitus

Jurgen · Post by **Jurgen** » Thu Mar 06, 2003 6:40 pm

I think some of what you call stagnation is actaully more of a backlash. Over the last few years there has been a heavy emphasis on new and different things(more pas de arms, alternative ways to be defeated, different tournies, weapons changes, etc, etc). Much of this is (in my opinion) due to the wider availablity of research into historic swordsmanship. From my vantage point, there has been quite a bit of change. I do feel that the resistance to changing things is growing somewhat lately which is lamentable. My guess is that some people fear the rate of changes that have been occuring and just automatically say NO to anything new, in an attempt to find stability.

I also have the general impression that some people that are advocating change are not going about it correctly. I've seen instances of attitudes like: "This is a period technique. Why can't we have it? Why why why?"<imagine footstomping here> rather than: "I see you have some concerns with adding this technique to the rules. What are the problems you see? We may be able to word the rules to take care of your concerns." In other words, establish dialog, write a coherent proposal, etc. The biggest thing I would like to see is an established process for submitting proposals to change the heavy weapons rules.

Jurgen

mavrikii · Post by **mavrikii** » Thu Mar 06, 2003 7:06 pm

Jester,
As someone who has been in the same kingdom in which you reside for more than 15 years, I can say that rules have definately NOT stagnated. The precepts of a good blow and target zones have stayed the same, true. But types of tournaments, weapons, and the attitude of the fighting has definately changed considerably. Either that, or I have

However, what I see is a conflict from 2 sides. 1 being that a small percentage of the fighters want to chage everything all at once. Mostly to make it more period, some to make it safer, some for their own reasons which I don't need to go into here. On the other side, we have the mundane world (read lawyers) and safety that the marshallate needs to concern itself with.

What I would recommend is to talk to the KEM and SEM about changes you would like to make, then test them one at a time (with permission) with a limited, trusted group. Perhaps with a few nay-sayers to the rule proposal at least watching.

Then take a consensus of the group...and listen to the good and the bad points. Make changes to make it safer, try it again. Keep this up until it is both safe and workable...or it gets scrapped.

Always though, err on the side of safety.

Sir Mavrikii

Bob H · Post by **Bob H** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 1:25 am

I've asked for one experiment - halfswording - and my Kingdom Earl Marshall told me he was unable to allow it since it would violate Society rules. We did not get so far as to discuss safety issues, and I feel that the technique is less dangerous than the allowed use of a bec de corbin since the sword is lighter. I was very satisfied with the way our SEM treated me, but I was disappointed in the outcome of my request.

It would be nice to be able to experiment, under SCA approval and control, with this and similar techniques and rules that better approximate historic technique without sacrificing safety. I don't necessarily want to change the present rules, but rather to allow options for specific event contests.

losthelm · Post by **losthelm** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 1:55 am

halfswording exposes all you your ribs.
and if you lock your elbows can dislocate your sholders.
the rules are written to protect the lowes common denominator.

as for turnament ideas I have fought in plenty that are out of the norm and personaly I am alway looking for new ideas.

Sir Dan Halfhand · Post by **Sir Dan Halfhand** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 2:36 am

On Halfswording, The identical technique (blocking while holding the blade of your weapon) is absolutely no diferent than the same block with, say, a 4 foot two-handed rattan mace or hammer. It's no more dangerous whatsoever.

The problem (in this limited case) is that the Marshals can't get past the old rule of 'thou shalt not grasp the striking surface (blade) of a weapon.'

Any deviation from that paradign is 'bad' in their mind.

But on the general question of stagnation, no, I don't think so. I would say you COULD make a case for the game becoming overly concerned with saftey at the expense of fun/realism though (the whole directed touch thing for instance).

Diglach Mac Cein · Post by **Diglach Mac Cein** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 7:48 am

SCA fighting hasn't ossified.

Some of the FIGHTERS however.....

Dilan
(Having as much fun now as he did 16 years ago.)

Total_Wimp · Post by **Total_Wimp** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 1:52 pm

I would guess that some people might have a problem with mucking too much since the competition has such high stakes. Example: HRM in Atlantia won the crown and as a result was able to create a rule that effectively bans visible plastic. If the rules were changed significantly and ended up favoring a style he was weak in then... well, who knows?

If you add sidesword as an experiment then there's not much to lose (safety considerations notwithstanding). But if you change the rules of the tournament that chooses the king then it potentially could have a dramatic effect on the Kingdom.

As far as non-crown competitions are concerned I would think people might (and should) be much more open to experimentation.

Paul

Dmitriy · Post by **Dmitriy** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 2:12 pm

I disagree. Once you are at the level guys like Cuan and Logan are at, minor tweaks in the rules aren't likely to change the outcome.
I don't lose to Jade, Uther, and their likes because I can't halfsword, I lose because they are better.
On a side note, thank god we don't grapple. I've seen Duke Uther wrestle, and I am not going anywhere near that

.

Kevin the Hound · Post by **Kevin the Hound** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 2:15 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Broadway:

...(BIG SNIP)...
These things are the exception to the rule yes, but you will not find a single schlager among the 10-12 light fighters at my fighter's practice.
...(SNIP)...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Matthew,

Quick question, not an attack of any sort or an attempt to make flames in any way. You say there is no schlager among your Rapier fighters at your local practices. What weapons do they have? Is it epees or are they using rapier simulators like Del Tins, Hanweis and such?

Just curious.

Kevin the Hound

------------------
Pars Acuta in Alio (The Pointy End Goes into the Other Man)

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 2:58 pm

Jester,

I think you may be attributing something thats more of a local issue to the society as a whole. I know how hard you've worked to drum up interest for historical techniques here in town, and i know you've run into a lot of disinterest from the rank and file in general. There are a few of us that are interested in doing more historical swordwork though, and theres no reason we can't start incorporating those plays from the fetchbuchs that don't require breaking safety rules(grappling, throws, etc) even if its only at practice. I've already decided im giving up sword and board and sticking with weapons suitable to my 14th century persona, so you and i could start doing poleaxe at fighter practices using le jeu de hache plays, or even some Fiore Longsword. And theres nothing saying we cant walk 50 feet away and do whatever the heck techniques we feel like.

Something else i should mention is this- I spent a couple hours talking to Brian Price at Estrella, and he mentioned that more then a dozen people from our local area had approached him during the event, interested in finding out if there were any WMA groups here locally, so there are definately enough of us to get something going. It's just a matter of getting them organized and determining when and where the best time for us to practice is. If nothing else we can always get together in somebodys backyard.

I also picked up a copy of "Secrets's of German Medieval Swordsmanship" by Christian Tobler. Not sure if you already have it in your library, but if not, your welcome to make use of my copy.

------------------
Otto von Aachen
Kingdom of the Outlands, Canton of Hawks Hollow

Total_Wimp · Post by **Total_Wimp** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 4:36 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dmitriy:
I disagree. Once you are at the level guys like Cuan and Logan are at, minor tweaks in the rules aren't likely to change the outcome.
I don't lose to Jade, Uther, and their likes because I can't halfsword, I lose because they are better.
On a side note, thank god we don't grapple. I've seen Duke Uther wrestle, and I am not going anywhere near that

.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think minor tweaks would be a problem either and I'm definitely not suggesting Cuan or Logan only won because of some rule in their favor.

But my guess is you'd have loud complaining about almost any tweak that caused a big stylistic shift in the way people fight or that tends to favor a particular style of fighting. I think a lot of this would be in the form of, "if we did it the old way, so-and-so would be kicking so-and-so's butt!" Heck, even sidesword and rapier have some controversy and nothing is riding on the outcome. I guarantee some people would resist major rule changes if they thought it might affect the outcome of a heavy fighting competition.

Look at what happen anytime they make a change in a sports rule. Review the instant replay, don't review the instant replay, make it a penalty if you review the instant replay frivolously. All are controversial when they come out because someone thinks his team would win if they did it differently.

Paul

jester · Post by **jester** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 5:31 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by mavrikii:

-SNIP-
What I would recommend is to talk to the KEM and SEM about changes you would like to make, then test them one at a time (with permission) with a limited, trusted group. Perhaps with a few nay-sayers to the rule proposal at least watching.

-SNIP-

Sir Mavrikii<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Congratulations on your elevation, sir. I don't want to change the rules. But if I did where would I find the guidelines for doing so? There aren't any.

I have talked with the Marshal of the Society. No deviations from the rules are being allowed. Period.

jester · Post by **jester** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 5:33 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Broadway:
You muddy the waters of your title with your own responce.

-SNIP-

2. Stagnation of Heavy Fighting.

This is complete and utter bullshit.

I attended my first tourney 11 years ago. The presentation of the fighters on the field was equivelant to the extra's in Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome. Compare that to the tourney I attended last year. I did not see a single fighter with exposed plastic. In fact, three of the fighters presented themself is such an authentic form that I had to struggle to find fault.

Apperance asside.

Pas de Arms are becoming more frequent. Tourney Companies are more popular. Tourneys with behourd style competion, matched weapons, fighting at the barrier, fights to a # of blows... I could go on.

These things are the exception to the rule yes, but you will not find a single schlager among the 10-12 light fighters at my fighter's practice. So please do not say that the Side Sword experiment is not the exception to the rule as well.

Stagnant... Definately not.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are correct. I have overstated my case. I mentioned the Sidesword experiment because it is an example of experimentation. To the best of my knowledge this sort of experimentation is not being allowed, at all, in heavy fighting.

jester · Post by **jester** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 5:38 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Sir Dan Halfhand:
On Halfswording, The identical technique (blocking while holding the blade of your weapon) is absolutely no diferent than the same block with, say, a 4 foot two-handed rattan mace or hammer. It's no more dangerous whatsoever.
-SNIP-
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I respectfully disagree, sir. If I hold a greatsword in a half-swording posture and then smash the portion of the blade between my hands into the grill of my opponent I am being pretty unsafe.
-This violates the rule regarding force transmission in an unbroken line (punch daggers and shovel-handle spears).
-The quillions of the weapon represent a real hazard to life. One equipment failure could create a corpse.
I can think of three other scenarios off the top of my head that make half-swording with the greatsword different from polearm use.

jester · Post by **jester** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 5:43 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Edmund Greyfox:
Jester,

I think you may be attributing something thats more of a local issue to the society as a whole. I know how hard you've worked to drum up interest for historical techniques here in town, and i know you've run into a lot of disinterest from the rank and file in general. There are a few of us that are interested in doing more historical swordwork though, and theres no reason we can't start incorporating those plays from the fetchbuchs that don't require breaking safety rules(grappling, throws, etc) even if its only at practice. I've already decided im giving up sword and board and sticking with weapons suitable to my 14th century persona, so you and i could start doing poleaxe at fighter practices using le jeu de hache plays, or even some Fiore Longsword. And theres nothing saying we cant walk 50 feet away and do whatever the heck techniques we feel like.

Something else i should mention is this- I spent a couple hours talking to Brian Price at Estrella, and he mentioned that more then a dozen people from our local area had approached him during the event, interested in finding out if there were any WMA groups here locally, so there are definately enough of us to get something going. It's just a matter of getting them organized and determining when and where the best time for us to practice is. If nothing else we can always get together in somebodys backyard.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, Edmund, I haven't encountered disinterest (actually, I have, but I have had equal amounts of interest). I also don't believe this is a local problem because the ruling came down from the Marshal of the Society.

When they told me I couldn't do Fiore I ranted uncontrollably for a couple of days and then shut up and took advice. I went back with a counter proposal. Fiore was out because too much of the material is dangerous. What about German sword and buckler? 90% of that material is legal in SCA combat and we could simply leave out the parts that aren't. The response was: No. The Society is apparently afraid that if we have historic martial arts practices it will cause liability problems. I don't know what the reasons are because I haven't been told.

jester · Post by **jester** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 5:49 pm

My big point here, folks, is that the Society is apparently not allowing experimentation in any form and they are not going into any sort of detail on why. There is no established process for getting permission to experiment and that leaves the Marshal of the Society sitting in the blame-seat. If he authorizes an experiment and someone gets hurt then the blame stops on his doorstep. This would make me very conservative and I am obviously a wild-eyed radical.

One of the things that frustrates me about this situation is that while experimentation is apparently forbidden to heavy fighters, the fencing community is having a ball with Sidesword (whether or not it is an invitation to disaster).

Rev. George · Post by **Rev. George** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 6:02 pm

Ok... here's the deal:

The biggest problem facing the society today is this:

Penchant for Orthodoxy

Many in the society, in all its aspects (fighting, arts, heraldry, events, etc) will stick with an idea or system only because that is how it was always done. how many times have you heard the statement "well that's not how *I* learned to do it" or "well, we dont do it that way"?

probably too many to count. its ingrained in our very society (no pun). We still publish the book that says "plastic and carpet are just as effective as steel" among other travesties. Some among us feel that the rules of the list were handed to Duke sir (another travesty of our orthodoxy) soandso by God himself atop Mt. Saint Helens in 1970. we fight from the knees and act out wounds because we always have. we have double elimination tournaments because we always have. we have a late feast because (SUPRISE!) court ran over, because we always have, ETC.

-+G

Aelric · Post by **Aelric** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 6:05 pm

I think this may be not a matter of what your asking for, Jester, but how you are asking. If you approached the SEM or KEM with a detailed written proposal for experimentation that was within the rules or close to it. Had them review and make suggestions/corrections. Developed a plan for implimentation and evaluation.... It would be a lot different that you jumping up and down demanding that you be allowed to do something because its historical. SEM ROA is far more conservitive than I am in many respects but he is not deaf to a reasonable experiment. Heavy has done a lot of experiments in my time in the SCA. Most of these are experimental materials but its not as rigid as you make it out. Grappling will most likely never be allowed. Baby steps, not big jumps.

Aelric

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 6:17 pm

Kevin wrote: "What weapons do they have?"

Foils.

------------------
Matthew Broadway (mattbroadway1974@yahoo.com)
Founder of The Armour Archive
Jack of All Trades... Master of none.

Dmitriy · Post by **Dmitriy** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 6:22 pm

Jester -- erm, what? I thought halfswording is used primarily for thrusting at close range. I don't recall seeing something along the lines of what you describe, except when combined with a throw -- in which case it's not so much smashing someone in the face as levering them over your knee..

Chadwick · Post by **Chadwick** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 6:25 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by jester:
What about German sword and buckler? 90% of that material is legal in SCA combat and we could simply leave out the parts that aren't. The response was: No.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting comment you have here. It flys in the face of my own personal experience.

I have been working with sword and buckler in SCA armoured combat for the past 18 months. I am personally aware of many fighters in multiple kingdoms working with armoured combat sword and buckler within the rules of SCA armoured combat.

I can personnaly attest to the fact that SCA armoured combat is a dangerous activity - a conservative approach to evolving the rules which govern SCA armoured combat is fine with me.

-Keith/Austin.

sarnac · Post by **sarnac** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 6:26 pm

according to what I have been told, to try anything that will be considered experimental I need to get the permission of my KEM. I wasnt aware I needed the SEM permission to try something new.

Jean Richard Malcolmson · Fri Mar 07, 2003 7:18 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by jester:
 The Society is apparently afraid that if we have historic martial arts practices it will cause liability problems. I don't know what the reasons are because I haven't been told.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

jester,

I don't know what you conversations with the SEM have been like, but here at least you sometimes express yourself strongly. I don't know the SEM, but it is possible that he is not comfortable with letting You do these experiments. Try to convince someone who he might know personally or by reputation to approach him to experiment.

If I see him at Gulf Wars, I will broach Fiore with him. There should be some way to encourage those within the SCA to learn more about this and the German Schools. The key word is SAFE and even for those who might not be as careful as you or I.

Regards,
Jean Richard
Ansteorra

jester · Post by **jester** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 11:31 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dmitriy:
Jester -- erm, what? I thought halfswording is used primarily for thrusting at close range. I don't recall seeing something along the lines of what you describe, except when combined with a throw -- in which case it's not so much smashing someone in the face as levering them over your knee..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And you are correct. Half-swording was primarily used to: defend against a strong attack, place the point of the weapon into a vulnerable area.

But if we allow half-swording then folks without a proper grounding in this may attempt to do that smash action I described. It comes back to accesibility vs. authenticity.

We can be more authentic in our fighting, but sometimes (perhaps even frequently) the cost is prohibitively high. Imagine a situation where a new fighter must complete twenty hours of training and pass a written test before being allowed to attempt authorization. No too onerous to ensure safety and allow a higher degree of authenticity. Except now the marshallate must come up with a way to certify trainers, keep records of training sessions, keep test records, etc...

jester · Post by **jester** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 11:52 am

Here is a proposal for guidelines that I submitted:

Guidelines for Conducting Historic Swordsmanship Study in the Kingdom of the Outlands

The intent of Historic Swordsmanship Study (HSS) is not re-creation (as with fencing or heavy fighting), it is the study of documented medieval martial techniques in a controlled and non-competitive environment for the purpose of gaining a greater understanding of how individual combat was
conducted in medieval Europe.

Process for obtaining permission to hold a HSS session:
1. Notify the local Knight Marshal, in writing, of your intentions. Be sure to include:
-The date, time, and location of the practice
-The expected number of attendees
-A rough outline of the material to be covered
-The name of the Marshal in Charge (MIC) at the event
Be sure to allow at least 30 days lead time to allow the marshalate time
to process and respond to your request.
2. The local Knight Marshal will pass the request up to the Kingdom Earl Marshal.
3. If permission is granted, conduct the HSS session according the
guidelines below.
> 4. After the HSS session, submit a report to the local Knight Marshal
which includes:
-The date, time, and location of the practice
-The number of attendees broken down by members and non-members
-A rough outline of the material covered
-A summary of any incidents you feel should be brought to the attention of the marshalate

Guidelines for the conduct of a HSS session:
1) No free-sparring or competitive combat.
2) No real or metal weapons of any sort may be used or carried by
participants.
3) No armor may be worn. Since HSS is non-competitive it is un-neccessary. Any variance to this rule must be requested of and approved by the Kingdom Earl Marshal.
4) Blunt weapons simulators constructed of wood or plastic may be used.
The Marshal in Charge at the event where the HSS session is being conducted
will inspect the weapons to be used.
5) Participants are allowed to engage in slow-work for the purpose of experimenting with documented techniques and principles.
6) Participants must present proof of waiver (as per the Society and
Kingdom rules regarding Heavy Fighting) or sign a site waiver.
7) At any event where HSS is to be conducted there must be a Marshal in
Charge. This marshal shall be an authorized marshal (Heavy or Light) approved by the local Knight Marshal. The MIC may end the HSS session for any reason. If the MIC finds it necessary to cancel or suspend an HSS session they shall include the details in their event report to the Knight Marshal.

Any injuries or safety violations will be reported to the Knight
Marshal and Kingdom Earl Marshal within 5 days (preferably the same day the
incident occurs).
>
> Guidelines for marshals supervising a HSS session:
> 1) Your job is to ensure safety standards are enforced. If you feel the
organizer of the sesssion is competent and trustworthy you may leave it to
them. You may assign another authorized marshal (heavy or light) to monitor
the session. You many monitor the session yourself. The goal is to make
sure that safety standards are enforced.
> 2) Nothing that looks remotely like free-sparring or competitive combat
(i.e. they are actually fighting) is to be permitted. Slow-work only.
>

Bob H · Post by **Bob H** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 1:38 pm

Originally posted by losthelm:
halfswording exposes all you your ribs.
I disagree. If anything, it tends to bring your elbows down so your upper arms protect the ribs. You are wearing rerebraces, aren't you?

and if you lock your elbows can dislocate your sholders. 
I've never seen a shoulder dislocation technique that can be done to both arms simultaneously. Locking your elbows can, however, put your elbows in jeopardy.

the rules are written to protect the lowes common denominator. 
I agree. I also think we should expect a bit more of the LCD, whether through training or exclusion. I'm not an elitist, but if you aren't safe doing something as physical as SCA combat, then perhaps you aren't ready to be out there.

as for turnament ideas I have fought in plenty that are out of the norm and personaly I am alway looking for new ideas.

My absolute favorite is a barrier fight IF designed to resemble the clashes at the palisades during Hundred Years Wars sieges - a contest "a outrance", without target limitations and no striking in the quarters. It's intense, requires skill, and the inclusion of leg targeting encourages you to belly up to the bar, and take and receive blows.

Vebrand · Post by **Vebrand** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 3:01 pm

I will jump in here for a quick second. The SEMs home Kingdom, Meridies, did away with the old rule of great swords having a handle of 18 inches. The new rule states that the blade has to be longer than the handle. People can have ricassos and perform some half-swording type actions with these weapons. It's all how you approach it.

Now on Half-swording it's self. If I remember right ( I claim no expertise here just a little reading) it was used as a defence to close in. It was designed absorb the heavy blows while you closed in and slammed the other fighter to the ground. With the one shot SCA kills and style of SCA greatsword I am not sure it would be as effective as in historical times.

Now Jester do not take this as a slamm for it is not meant as one. Just a real curious question. Have you not posted almost the same subject before not too long ago pushing the the stagnet heavy vs. the more historical rapier fighting using the "side-sword" experiment? If not you someone did because I remember this same thread before.

Ever Questing,
Vebrand

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 5:05 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Broadway:
Kevin wrote: "What weapons do they have?"
Foils.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No foils in the rapier around here, everyone has epees, I think foils should be banned they look stupid.

I agree that the swords in use in the side sword project can hit too hard, but that means that qualifying to fight should be harder. The HWMA group I am in uses del tin rapier simulators as its rapier weapon.

Flonzy

Brennainn · Post by **Brennainn** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 5:44 pm

Jester,
Do you want to learn about more period fighting methods, or do you want to learn abot them at an SCA event? There is no rule that says you cannot have the type of study you are talking about at you're own house. You seem to be upset about you're idea being rejected by the society marshal, but you can still study.
I guess I just don't understand you're issue.

Thanks
Brennainn

jester · Post by **jester** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 11:31 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vebrand:


-SNIP-

Now Jester do not take this as a slamm for it is not meant as one. Just a real curious question. Have you not posted almost the same subject before not too long ago pushing the the stagnet heavy vs. the more historical rapier fighting using the "side-sword" experiment? If not you someone did because I remember this same thread before.

Ever Questing,
Vebrand<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It certainly doesn't read like a slam. :> Yes, I did. People convinced me that I had mis-interpreted the position of the Society. Subsequent events have driven me back to my original opinion.

jester · Post by **jester** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 11:40 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Brennainn:
 Jester,
Do you want to learn about more period fighting methods, or do you want to learn abot them at an SCA event? There is no rule that says you cannot have the type of study you are talking about at you're own house. You seem to be upset about you're idea being rejected by the society marshal, but you can still study.
I guess I just don't understand you're issue.

Thanks
Brennainn

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1) I can't afford the travel costs and associated expenses of being in two organizations. So I can study historic manuals -OR- participate at SCA events.
2) I have defended the Society against detractors for years. It comes as a real shock to discover the detractors were correct and I was in error.
3) There is nothing in the rules that forbids what I was attempting to do.

Fearghus Macildubh · Post by **Fearghus Macildubh** » Sun Mar 09, 2003 4:01 am

Ossified? I don't think so. No more than football or baseball have ossified because of their ruleset.
Halfswording is easy to do safely. In essence it is a buttspike thrust, just like with a polearm or spear. Now, the murder-blow, that would require some changes to how quillions and pommels were made, they'd have to be made like mass weapons, but still doable.
Jester, sometimes you come across very zealously i.e. if you don't agree with me you're a dinosaur and a stick jock. But hey, passion about period technique is a good thing. Anyhow, just find some folks in the SCA and out of it in your area, get some fechtbucher, figure out some safety ground rules, find a park and have fun.
Slainte,
Fearghus

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How long will we fight? We will fight until Hell freezes over. Then we fight on the ice.
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