WMA video's

[Leo Medii]

Is anyone here interested in seeing some video of WMA stuff used in an SCA context?

A bunch of my company are heading on next Sunday to the local FP and we are thinking of videotaping the bouts and the drills we do for longsword and poleaxe. Will include a smidge of I 33 sword and buckler as well.

[Nissan Maxima]

I am interested.

[Leo Medii]

I am interested.

We talked about the fighting today. Four guys are interested in practicing "Ukraine" style fighting. After the holidays we need to talk about a "unofficial" practice.

[Tom Richardson]

I would be interested as well.

[Ulric]

Absolutely.

[bkillian]

If I were closer I'd be up to some Ukrainian style mixups after my shoulder heals

but yeah vids would cool

[Thorsteinn Raudskeggr]

+1 for interested.

[Kel Rekuta]

I am interested.

We talked about the fighting today. Four guys are interested in practicing "Ukraine" style fighting. After the holidays we need to talk about a "unofficial" practice.

The Ukrainian - Russian stuff is just SCA with blunt steel except no thrusts. None of you should have a problem with it other than counting the total hits instead of falling down with the first "good" one. Its basically whacka-mole with little relief. First to ten, twenty whatever number of hits on the other guy wins. Most of you will have no trouble with these guys, perhaps maybe the force of shots over and over. Some of them do have restrictions on blow angle to the head, some don't care.

[Maeryk]

Kel, do they hit as hard with blunted steel as our guys do with rattan?

[Kel Rekuta]

Yes. I played SCA for 23 years all over North America. The local Ukrainian boys are all fit, athletic guys wielding what I can only describe as 30" flat steel bars in a vaguely sword-like shape. They hit fast, hard and then hit again. They don't seem to have any reservations on force. Since they have no fear of grappling or thrusts, they just step up and wail away at each other. And me when I played with them.

It was just like playing SCA stick again for me. Boring and got my armour dented without slowing me down for a second. I have a couple vids from August which are pretty pathetic to watch. Its all about hitting the other guy a particular number of times before he can hit you that many times. They are convinced that steel swords can cut steel helmets so to them each blow would have ended the fight but want to keep the fun rolling.

If you are one of the SCAdians that think rattan is rock'em - sock'em combat compared to wimpy "pretend" steel fighting, these guys will adjust your opinion.

[Milan H]

But steel will keel!!

Oh and +1 to seeing some videos Leo.

As for what the Russians and Ukrainians are doing, I think it would be a lot fun, but I really wouldn't want to take that many creases out my armor each week. Never the less, I would certainly try it without reservation.

Cheers!

[Leo Medii]

Cam is ready.

If anyone is local or interested in traveling to the Roaring Wastes SCA practice in Berkley MI it is from 1-5 on the 14th. The first two hours we will be running drills with pole and longsword, and the last two hours is armored free play. We play "as armored" many of the bouts. There is also lots of SCA combats as well.
There are about 10 of us who will be attending just for the WMA stuff, and then the regular locals doing SCA combat too.
I'll edit up the video and put small parts up as I can.

[Armand d'Alsace]

Excellent!
I'd love to see some video.

[JvR]

Is anyone here interested in seeing some video of WMA stuff used in an SCA context?

A bunch of my company are heading on next Sunday to the local FP and we are thinking of videotaping the bouts and the drills we do for longsword and poleaxe. Will include a smidge of I 33 sword and buckler as well.

very very very very interested. When I start playing SCA again, I hope to see it shift towards authenticity in combat. I am sure the sport fighting is fun (why else would so many do it) I would prefer something more historical. I would love to partake in something like WMA one day. Even if its in the SCA.

ETA wait "ukraine style?" Is that an actual historical style taught and preserved through the years?

[Peikko]

...ETA wait "ukraine style?" Is that an actual historical style taught and preserved through the years?

Not in this case, no. There are historic martial arts from this region, but this ain't one of them.

[ThorvaldR Skegglauss]

Is anyone here interested in seeing some video of WMA stuff used in an SCA context?

A bunch of my company are heading on next Sunday to the local FP and we are thinking of videotaping the bouts and the drills we do for longsword and poleaxe. Will include a smidge of I 33 sword and buckler as well.

very very very very interested. When I start playing SCA again, I hope to see it shift towards authenticity in combat. I am sure the sport fighting is fun (why else would so many do it) I would prefer something more historical. I would love to partake in something like WMA one day. Even if its in the SCA.ETA wait "ukraine style?" Is that an actual historical style taught and preserved through the years?

(bolding mine)

I just can't help myself anymore. I keep seeing this kind of sentiment and I wonder. What is WMA? "Western Martial Arts"?

so does that mean that if we are practicing/utilizing our "Western Martial Arts" there can't be any competitiveness? Does that mean that it has to be done slow motion to ensure that "period" techniques are utilized at all times with a judge and jury. (especially knowing we only have a limited amount of historical texts to go from)

I find this a ludicrous position. I am not making excuses for SCA fighting, by no means. The fact that the knees and below is invulnerable is equally ludicrous. But the idea that the "holy" texts of a few late period practitioners that are cryptic in their descriptions and illustrations is the end all and be all gets under my skin.

This is a bad analogy but in my mind SCA is to WMA what MMA is to any other Martial Art.

We have 45 years of attempted combat within a growing guideline and we allow for innovation and inspiration. We have developed various schools of approach to the combat system.

NO one is stopping anyone in the SCA from attempting known WMA techniques and applying them. Our ancestors fought in tourneys, they practiced, they fought and died using techniques that were not annotated. Can I prove it no. Is it the most logical conclusion, yes....

Don't get me wrong, I applaud people who practice known techniques and want to perfect them, but please, please don't bitch when they don't work in a stand up fight. Much like the karate practitioner who gets his ass handed to him in a bar fight because someone didn't follow the "rules"

-rant over-


Leo, I reread that you are trying these in an SCA context. Noe, here on the Archive has done this for years. Some of the techniques are deceptively good, others.. meh.. not so much. (just my opinion)

regards
ThorvaldR

[JvR]

I just can't help myself anymore. I keep seeing this kind of sentiment and I wonder. What is WMA? "Western Martial Arts"?

so does that mean that if we are practicing/utilizing our "Western Martial Arts" there can't be any competitiveness? Does that mean that it has to be done slow motion to ensure that "period" techniques are utilized at all times with a judge and jury. (especially knowing we only have a limited amount of historical texts to go from)

I find this a ludicrous position. I am not making excuses for SCA fighting, by no means. The fact that the knees and below is invulnerable is equally ludicrous. But the idea that the "holy" texts of a few late period practitioners that are cryptic in their descriptions and illustrations is the end all and be all gets under my skin.

This is a bad analogy but in my mind SCA is to WMA what MMA is to any other Martial Art.

We have 45 years of attempted combat within a growing guideline and we allow for innovation and inspiration. We have developed various schools of approach to the combat system.

NO one is stopping anyone in the SCA from attempting known WMA techniques and applying them. Our ancestors fought in tourneys, they practiced, they fought and died using techniques that were not annotated. Can I prove it no. Is it the most logical conclusion, yes....

Don't get me wrong, I applaud people who practice known techniques and want to perfect them, but please, please don't bitch when they don't work in a stand up fight. Much like the karate practitioner who gets his ass handed to him in a bar fight because someone didn't follow the "rules"

-rant over-

Good points worthy of reflection

[Ulric]

We have 45 years of attempted combat within a growing guideline and we allow for innovation and inspiration. We have developed various schools of approach to the combat system.

NO one is stopping anyone in the SCA from attempting known WMA techniques and applying them. Our ancestors fought in tourneys, they practiced, they fought and died using techniques that were not annotated. Can I prove it no. Is it the most logical conclusion, yes....

Don't get me wrong, I applaud people who practice known techniques and want to perfect them, but please, please don't bitch when they don't work in a stand up fight. Much like the karate practitioner who gets his ass handed to him in a bar fight because someone didn't follow the "rules"

-rant over-


Leo, I reread that you are trying these in an SCA context. Noe, here on the Archive has done this for years. Some of the techniques are deceptively good, others.. meh.. not so much. (just my opinion)

regards
ThorvaldR

SCA combat has evolved as it has due to the rules and restrictions, as well as weapons used... and as such, the schools and innovations developed work in that context.

But sticks aren't swords, and presumed armour isn't armour.

Do some of the techniques carry over? sure. There are also a bunch that don't. The "meh.. not so much" techniques are likely those that work with real weapons, but not sticks, especially in a regular SCA context.

I believe the example you used regarding karate vs barfight is a good one... but you have it backwards. SCA = karate, WMA= win at all costs.
In most of the period manuals, the certainly aren't instructing you on how to be a sport fighter.

Saying these techniques don't work in a stand up fight is folly, when you are using them in a restricted sport combat context, without real weapons and armour(that counts as such).

[ThorvaldR Skegglauss]

Oh I agree that the techniques are not meant to be sporting..

and I freely admitted that it was a bad analogy. It is just this belief that these few manuals is the end all be all that sticks in my throat.


I think we should have full body targeting in the SCA. I mean we get hit in the "illegal" places all the time. Besides it would force people to actually wear armour.

meh..... it is all semantics anyway.

regards
ThorvaldR

[Swete]

Oh I agree that the techniques are not meant to be sporting..

and I freely admitted that it was a bad analogy. It is just this belief that these few manuals is the end all be all that sticks in my throat.


I think we should have full body targeting in the SCA. I mean we get hit in the "illegal" places all the time. Besides it would force people to actually wear armour.

meh..... it is all semantics anyway.

regards
ThorvaldR

I would love to see full targeting become legal. Just the addition of making shins and knees legal targets would 'revolutionize' spear fighting. Seeing spearmen running from sword and shieldmen like small school girls who saw a unusually large spider would mostly be a thing of the past. (I do not say this as an insult to spear/polearm fighters; I myself am one -- I am merely commenting on certain factors of unrealism, as I find them, in the current state of spear use in the SCA)
However, there are those who manage to master this limited form, and dominate the battlefield despite the handicap. It is my belief that a greater variety of targets would promote a more realistic amount of spearmen in the SCA. Afterall, it was the most common form of weapon for most of Medieval history and yet, it is underwhelmingly represented.

[Kel Rekuta]

Oh I agree that the techniques are not meant to be sporting..

and I freely admitted that it was a bad analogy. It is just this belief that these few manuals is the end all be all that sticks in my throat.


I think we should have full body targeting in the SCA. I mean we get hit in the "illegal" places all the time. Besides it would force people to actually wear armour.

meh..... it is all semantics anyway.

regards
ThorvaldR

You just need to learn a bit more about the western martial treatises. There are a lot more than a handful of them and they weren't developed in isolation from the reality of deadly conflict; be it the battlefield, tournament list or alleys leading to the town market.

So then; allow grappling and throws, thrusts to the back and also remove the "90 degree view" attack limitations from your SCA combat practice before you dismiss period techniques. You might gain a different perspective, even within the rarified context that SCA athletic contest provides. Its easy to dismiss something you clearly know very little about, especially when it contradicts your hard won understanding of combat in the SCA.

May I presume that you are a US serviceman stationed in Germany? If so, please consider the difference between the most realistic training scenarios you can practice versus what you would be willing to do in deadly conflict. The skills you develop in training will hopefully sustain you in the worst environment. Would you disregard advice from range instructors or from CQC instructors because they might not be relevant in your experience of combat at that point?

I certainly didn't and I have been fortunate to never have had anyone shooting back at me during my service. You see, its all a matter of experience and perspective. I used to have your's when I had only played SCA. I no longer share your opinion on the matter.

[ThorvaldR Skegglauss]

I admit fully that I know little about the majority of WMA. That is not what I was or am refering to.

Your analogy about military service is apt as well. I take advice and learn from wherever I can.

Including folks who study WMA. I believe it would be better served if on the WMA side of the fence they were willing to "learn" as well from the SCA side. You can't point me to a single reference on how fighting was "taught" any earlier than I33 either... so we just don't know what they were doing, but we do know that they were training Knights and men at arms prior to that.

The Military switched to the Gracie method of combatives. I find alot of stuff in there good. But you know what doesn't get taught to Joe? HOW to KILL. That was the ultimate goal of all the "old school" combatives. Now we are worried about subduing an opponent. (enough of a derail)

[Saritor]

Including folks who study WMA. I believe it would be better served if on the WMA side of the fence they were willing to "learn" as well from the SCA side. You can't point me to a single reference on how fighting was "taught" any earlier than I33 either... so we just don't know what they were doing, but we do know that they were training Knights and men at arms prior to that.

And, to a certain extent, there's stuff that learning from the SCA can do -- there's only so many ways to throw a shot efficiently.

I giggle internally every time someone with a white scarf or a white belt stand toe-to-toe with me and jockey to get a shot off, and then go off and talk about how WMA don't work in real fights, ignoring that you'd be taking someone to the ground, or dislocating joints at that range.

[Kel Rekuta]

I admit fully that I know little about the majority of WMA. That is not what I was or am refering to.

Your analogy about military service is apt as well. I take advice and learn from wherever I can.

Including folks who study WMA. I believe it would be better served if on the WMA side of the fence they were willing to "learn" as well from the SCA side. You can't point me to a single reference on how fighting was "taught" any earlier than I33 either... so we just don't know what they were doing, but we do know that they were training Knights and men at arms prior to that.

Ah, another open mind to share with. Its been a good week for this particular question.

Bluntly put, medieval people didn't write this sort of detail down for posterity. Nor did they detail how to brew beer, bake bread or work leather. Crafts and trades were taught by senior practitioners, partly to control trade secrets, perhaps also to make best use of valuable time and experience. Why write an expensive book about every practice in your trade, the expect your apprentices to read it? Teach them, make them practice and conduct your trade. I suspect the trade of arms was an "in" club with tightly limited levels of instruction. Why in Heaven's Name should those dirty beasts working the fields learn to fight? It wasn't their place - its ours!!!!

The modern concept of "how to" books did not begin evolve until the very late middle ages and early Renaissance. Expectations that they should be found before then are an imposition of modern concepts on a long lost reality. Not really practical I'm afraid to say.

There are several comments and suggestions for training from the medieval period. Many of them are readily available in academic articles produced since the 1980's at least. A number of them are discussed in this thread recently. http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=21353

The De Re Militaria organization has published or released some articles concerning this information. Check out their downloadable resources for plenty fun reading. If I'm not mistaken, several SCAdians have put up reference list to the most accessable of the numerous articles available in libraries or by ILL.

The WMA community is as varied and intense in their studies as the SCA or any other community of interest. We have the wall flowers, the geeks, the posers and the downright awesome & righteous researchers as any other group. There is no unified practice between groups anywhere regardless of their specific interest. My background in SCA and modern military training gives me a few insights into physical conflict that purely book learned students don't have. However, it has been a struggle to "empty the cup" at times but in every case it has paid off. Don't dismiss it until you give a better look.

[ThorvaldR Skegglauss]

Including folks who study WMA. I believe it would be better served if on the WMA side of the fence they were willing to "learn" as well from the SCA side. You can't point me to a single reference on how fighting was "taught" any earlier than I33 either... so we just don't know what they were doing, but we do know that they were training Knights and men at arms prior to that.

And, to a certain extent, there's stuff that learning from the SCA can do -- there's only so many ways to throw a shot efficiently.

I giggle internally every time someone with a white scarf or a white belt stand toe-to-toe with me and jockey to get a shot off, and then go off and talk about how WMA don't work in real fights, ignoring that you'd be taking someone to the ground, or dislocating joints at that range.

Well that would be their fault for staying at that range long enough for that.

Grappling in combat is not actually the best option most of the time. Hit and move are much more important. Going to the ground with someone is simply inviting his friends to stab you in the back. Not to mention rolling around in armour for any amount of time is really tiring and it sure would suck to have to stand up and continue fighting at that point. I think the thought that grappling was used so much is also a bit overstated. I am not talking about binds and locks which then use a "finishing" move per se'.

Any way, much like MMA, where the best are an amalgamation of styles and are good at different forms so too must we be to fully understand the complete concept of armoured combat.

@Kel yeah, I understand the idea of "secret" training and also the idea of an illiterate group learning to fight is by word of mouth and as you point out writing things down was not usually done by the warrior caste of society but rather by monks. Not exactly their purvue now was it. Anyway at some point I am liable to learn more of the WMA aspects. Like I said, it all goes into the end result. Use what works and discard what doesn't.

(also for anyone who wants to poke at that last statement)
discarding what doesn't work may not actually be the same for everone. Some things work for me but not for others and vice versa with other techniques.

regards
ThorvaldR

[Thorsteinn Raudskeggr]

Very OT Begin:

"Do you know how to use that?"

"Yes. Of course. The pointy end goes into the other man."


Thousands of years of sword knowledge condensed into a single line. Though he was wrong about his skill he was right in how to apply it.

My personal thing I want to happen in the WMA community is for one of the most important lessons Bruce lee taught to become incorporated to the deepest levels.

"Using now Way as Way. Using no Limitation as Limitation."

Very OT End

Still cant wait for the vids to come out.

-Ivan

[Saritor]

Grappling in combat is not actually the best option most of the time. Hit and move are much more important. Going to the ground with someone is simply inviting his friends to stab you in the back. Not to mention rolling around in armour for any amount of time is really tiring and it sure would suck to have to stand up and continue fighting at that point. I think the thought that grappling was used so much is also a bit overstated. I am not talking about binds and locks which then use a "finishing" move per se'.

I think really, that last sentence is where the disconnect is between what we're saying. Any time I grab, body-check, or use a foot (in whatever manner), I'm counting that as grappling -- basically, anything we can't do directly by SCA rules without some creative bending of the rules being involved.

I spend a lot of time out at range because I don't want an opponent to close with me, since I'm considering environments where full grappling is allowed, ranging from using an open hand to stop an arm to throws and wrestling.

I think that, as a hypothetical, if it were allowed in SCA combat, we'd see a couple of months or more of a LOT of ground combat happening until styles adjusted and people fought more at range, closing more rarely unless they were very good at ground combat. In a melee environment, yeah...you probably wouldn't drag someone down to the ground and roll around (unless things had degenerated that far), but I'd be more than happy to screw up their footing and plant them on their face, or on their ass while I stayed standing.

[Leo Medii]

I find it odd that most high level SCA fighters get very defensive about the idea of grappling. I have studied and watched art after art in practice, and in my 4 years as a club bouncer I have to say that about 90% of serious contests end up with someone on the ground, or grappling on the ground. When entering a combat scenario, it would be unwise to ignore this statistical fact.

And, for context, when I use the term WMA, it is in the same vein as the term E9astern) martial art. When you go to an eastern school, a great deal of time is devoted to practicing the techniques in drill, and less time in free sparring. This is how we do it in our practice as well. Large amounts of drilling so that the technique can be applied without thought when needed.
I look at the SCA as I would another form of martial art. It is not better, or worse than another, just different. In my experience, there is no superior art, only superior practitioners.

[Kel Rekuta]

Leo, your words please me like a cool drink on a hot day. My compliments to you.

[Signo]

Hardly the set of techniques developed to work in a strict set of rules work against the techniques developed to work with no rules. Is like saying that one fighter has a set of X options, and the others has 10*X options.
This is one of the reason because SCA cannot be taken as a primary source, the other is that it is not a primary source, and like in reenactment, this is a fundamental thing.

[ThorvaldR Skegglauss]

I am in basic agreement with most of this.

[Sir Tristan]

This is an interesting discussion and I am enjoying the dialog regarding WMA.

With regards to the original topic, I am interested in yet slightly apprehensive about a WMA video. I'm very curious about the approach taken by the instructors. Let me explain a bit.

The WMA world is trying it's best to reconstruct fighting techniques from historical manuals most of which use cryptic language and primitive drawings to describe a complex art. I believe it's fair to say that fighting, any fighting, is complex. With no living lineage of instruction taught by master to student for generations, modern enthusiasts are left to try and reconstruct based on their experiences in other fighting arts.

Even Eastern arts *with* a live lineage have been watered down and are only pale shadows of their former selves.

The perspective about what hand to hand combat arts is now is drastically different from what it was when those manuals were written. It is difficult to appreciate that when trying to reconstruct that fighting system. It must be taken into account that there were no rules, no limitations, and no concern for your opponent's safety. These are all things that every fighting art has, yes even MMA.

I think this is a major gap in the WMA community, not due to anything intentional but only due to such a large and irreconcilable gap of lethal hand to hand combat. Add to that no live lineage and primary sources that are difficult to interpret, and the difficulties mount. Essentially, all of us modern practitioners are scholars lacking enough lethal hand to hand combat experience to accurately reconstruct this system. I don't use the term 'these' systems because I believe they all describe what is nearly the same system with some minor personal interpretation or emphasis by each author.

Wow, I do enjoy this discussion and could go on but would prefer not to derail the thread further. Thanks for the discussion!

[Peikko]

This is an interesting discussion and I am enjoying the dialog regarding WMA.

With regards to the original topic, I am interested in yet slightly apprehensive about a WMA video. I'm very curious about the approach taken by the instructors. Let me explain a bit.

The WMA world is trying it's best to reconstruct fighting techniques from historical manuals most of which use cryptic language and primitive drawings to describe a complex art. I believe it's fair to say that fighting, any fighting, is complex. With no living lineage of instruction taught by master to student for generations, modern enthusiasts are left to try and reconstruct based on their experiences in other fighting arts.

Even Eastern arts *with* a live lineage have been watered down and are only pale shadows of their former selves.

The perspective about what hand to hand combat arts is now is drastically different from what it was when those manuals were written. It is difficult to appreciate that when trying to reconstruct that fighting system. It must be taken into account that there were no rules, no limitations, and no concern for your opponent's safety. These are all things that every fighting art has, yes even MMA.

I think this is a major gap in the WMA community, not due to anything intentional but only due to such a large and irreconcilable gap of lethal hand to hand combat. Add to that no live lineage and primary sources that are difficult to interpret, and the difficulties mount. Essentially, all of us modern practitioners are scholars lacking enough lethal hand to hand combat experience to accurately reconstruct this system. I don't use the term 'these' systems because I believe they all describe what is nearly the same system with some minor personal interpretation or emphasis by each author.

Wow, I do enjoy this discussion and could go on but would prefer not to derail the thread further. Thanks for the discussion!

Rest assured that many of us teaching HEMA are aware of the concerns that you have specified...it is a constant source of discussion and debate.

Oh, and the source material isn't that hard to interpret...to say they are cryptic is a gross oversimplification.

[Signo]

What Tristan say it's true, from a perspective it's a limit, but from the other it's an opportunity. The limit is self explanatory, the opportunity is to see carefully what other groups put together from the same sources. If we keep an open mind and a will to check our work with others, we will have much more opportunity to explore different ways. Maybe we will not be able to tell which "school of thought" is the right one (maybe because there is not a RIGHT one) but for sure we all can improve, see errors that were repeated for years and understand some techniques that never made sense to us.

[Sir Tristan]

It is disappointing to me the unfriendly lines of division between perspectives within the martial arts community. In my book, WMA is a long overdue newcomer to the MA world.

I've heard tell there are some heated debates among the WMA community about interpretations. This is not surprising, as seems to be the same among many other areas of study.

I admit that I'm not heavily involved in that community but have had some exposure to it. Getting into embroiled debates where egos play a prominent role has no interest for me, but studying in earnest does.

Therefore, I applaud works which contribute to the research because it is a crucial piece of our history. It would be wonderful to see it restored.