How did the Norse count?

Sean Powell · Post by **Sean Powell** » Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:02 pm

OK, this should be a fairly simply question but it is way outside my usual range of research.

I am aware of the futhark rune/alphabet and that we see examples of it carved into multiple sites. What I have no knowledge of is how they recorded numbers. As a nation of traders they must have kept count of money, heads of sheep and cattle, lengths of boards for construction, troop numbers and a multitude of other things.

Did the Arabic number system extend that far north? Roman numerals seem unlikely. Some sort of Russian influence?

Other then dots like pips on dice, what do we know about how the Norse counted?

Thanks in advance,
Sean

Baron Alcyoneus · Post by **Baron Alcyoneus** » Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:35 pm

http://vikinganswerlady.com/numeric-reckoning.shtml

Donal Mac Ruiseart · Post by **Donal Mac Ruiseart** » Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:38 pm

The standard SCA joke for many years about Vikings counting was "One, two, many!"

^ · Post by ^ » Tue Nov 30, 2010 12:57 am

They seem to have used a base-12 system.

Marshal · Post by **Marshal** » Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:11 am

All of your bases are belong to us!

Sean Powell · Post by **Sean Powell** » Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:08 am

Baron Alcyoneus: Much appreciated. I didn't think of checking there. Apparantly while the Norse had words for the numbers they didn't seem to have specific characters for their numbers, instead writing out their numbers as words. For the purpose of this project I'm thinking of using dots or pips along with the runic alphabet... although I could always use the first 9 and last 9 letters of the futhark alphabet... hmmm. The exact alphabet will depend on which century I arbitrarily put this project into (it is mostly a joke and definetly anacronistic)

Donal Mac Ruiseart: The version of counting I heard went: One, Two, Many, Run, Hide, Pray.

It's pretty accurate when a scout comes back with troop deployments.

Piers Brent: According to the viking answer lady page, while the base cardinal numbers go from ein (1) to tÃ³lf (12) the next is Ã¾rettÃ¡n (13) with Ã¾rÃr meaning three and tÃ¡n or jÃ¡n meaning teen before reaching tuttugu (20). That doesn't seem like a base 12 number system. There is (not surprisingly I suppose) a strong connection between norse numbers and German in both word sound and the one-and-twenty construction of higher order numbers...

As a caveat, the spelling of numbers described is un-dated and we are talking about at least 3 different geographical clusters of runes and a long period of time so it is highly likely that different counting system or different words were used at some place/time as well.

Marshal: You can keep the bases. They can't sail anyplace and they burn to the ground too easily... but all your women and cattle belong to us! Now that's a good start.

Thanks all,
Sean

Ludewic · Post by **Ludewic** » Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:24 am

I modern day Sweden we count 1-20 like this:
Ett, TvÃ¥, Tre, Fyra, Fem, Sex, Sju, Ã…tta, Nio, Tio
Elva, Tolv, Tretton, Fjorton, Femton, Sexton, Sjutton, Arton, Nitton, Tjugo

I German it's very similar:
Ein, Zwei, Drei, Vier, FÃ¼nf, Sechs, Sieben, Acht, Neun, Zehn
Elf, ZwÃ¶lf, Dreizehn, Vierzehn, FÃ¼nfzehn, Sechzehn, Siebzehn, Achtzehn, Neunzehn, Zwanzig.

However, here Swedish, German, Danish and Norwegian start to differ...
We say Tjugoett (twenty-one) the Germans say Einundzwanzig, Danes and Enogtyve (one and twenty). Norwegians used to say En-og-tyve, but are now changing to Tjue en...

The germans and norwegians had the same way of going on "five-and-fifty" Fem-og-femti - FÃ¼nf-und-fÃ¼nfzig... In Sweden we say Femtiofem (five and fifty, but the danes... well, check this link

http://www.olestig.dk/dansk/numbers.html

(just to get a modern perspective on scandinavian/germanic numbers)

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:26 am

Donal Mac Ruiseart wrote:The standard SCA joke for many years about Vikings counting was "One, two, many!"

Or, of course, the minor variant when describing how many Vikings are coming "one too many" :twisted:

Sean Powell · Post by **Sean Powell** » Tue Nov 30, 2010 9:45 am

Ludewic

Thanks for the clarification. I am far from a language expert and my pronunciation of German is bad enough that you might think I was speaking danish instead... or maybe korean.

Any information on numerical characters in the migration or early post migration period? Had arabic number characters spread that far? or was there a custom of making tick marks and crossing them every 5 or something like that? If Thorstein wantes to trade 7 sheep for 3 barrels of fish and there is a record of this for when he returns home to prove he didn't spend his sheep money on hookers and blow... would thay always have writen 'seven' and 'three'?

Sean

Donal Mac Ruiseart · Post by **Donal Mac Ruiseart** » Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:13 am

Kilkenny wrote:
Donal Mac Ruiseart wrote:The standard SCA joke for many years about Vikings counting was "One, two, many!"

Or, of course, the minor variant when describing how many Vikings are coming "one too many"

Why did the Vikings leave Scandanavia?

They didn't like the neighbourhood - too many Vikings.

Dougale MacAlestyr · Post by **Dougale MacAlestyr** » Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:25 pm

Donal Mac Ruiseart wrote:The standard SCA joke for many years about Vikings counting was "One, two, many!"

That's a Sir Pratchett joke on how Trolls count as seen in "Men at Arms"

One(1), Two(2), Many(4), Lots(16)

A binary system which works wonders with the Troll's silicone brain.

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Tue Nov 30, 2010 1:37 pm

I don't know when they began but the "Vikings" certainly used money with Arabic characters on by the 10th century. Both Muslim and Jewish coins minted in Baghdad were found in Scandinavian contexts.

This would point towards their comfort with the Arabic numerics

Bastior · Post by **Bastior** » Tue Nov 30, 2010 2:24 pm

Norman wrote:I don't know when they began but the "Vikings" certainly used money with Arabic characters on by the 10th century. Both Muslim and Jewish coins minted in Baghdad were found in Scandinavian contexts.

This would point towards their comfort with the Arabic numerics

It might, but it might just point towards their comfort with other people's silver ....

B

Sean Powell · Post by **Sean Powell** » Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:06 pm

Well if nothing else it points towards their exposure to arabic numerals if nothing else.

I think that given the nature of the project and tools involved plus the fact that there are no documentable numerical characters associated with the Futhark alphabet, I will probably just number the pieces 1-9 in pips like dominoes.

I want to thank everyone for their help. It's run researching stuff I know nothing about.

Sean

Donal Mac Ruiseart · Post by **Donal Mac Ruiseart** » Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:54 pm

Donal wrote:Why did the Vikings leave Scandanavia?

They didn't like the neighbourhood - too many Vikings.

This goes on through Iceland and Greenland with the same answer, then asks why they left Vinland in the late 15th century.

They didn't like the neighbourhood - too many Italians.

AriAnson · Post by **AriAnson** » Tue Nov 30, 2010 3:55 pm

1 - Bork
2 - Bork Bork
Many - Bork Bork Bork!

Marshal · Post by **Marshal** » Wed Dec 01, 2010 7:01 am

That is for Swedish Vikings only, though.

edricus · Post by **edricus** » Wed Dec 01, 2010 1:10 pm

Counting in Danish is rather amusing, I have no clue of how they do it and I speak and understand the langauge decently, I live in the south of Sweden (Shire of Attemark) which is next to Copenhagen.

What makes it really funny is when you are to say for instance 57 which turns into "sju og halvtreds" - seven and fifty I - or seven, and half-third-(times-of-twenty), it is rather hopless when you are shopping etc.

Here is a tv show about the difficulties with the danish language
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-mOy8VUEBk