The Helmet Shot- From Inside

[Vitus von Atzinger]

Describe as best you can what a good shot to your helmet is like to experience. Include as much detail as neccesary.

[Edward MacTavish]

A solid shot that does not skip off the helmet. My current helm does not ring or gong but it is a very light helm with natural fiber padding. It works great but I do not want to "test" it. I tend to recieve a lot more comments of "No dont take that one" when it comes to head shots than anything else.

Edward

[Aaron]

I can hear it or there is some movement. Anything less than that someone will scream I'm a rhino. So that's what I call as good. If it's a good friend who won't try and ban me and we're just having fun at practice I'd up it to "my head moved a bit".

[MJBlazek]

Can I feel it? Not does it rock the very soles of my feet like John Henry hammering a spike... but do I know I was hit.

I porbably accept far lighter shots than I should though.
I do so for the very reason you are discussing in the other thread.

But I have only been fighting for a fraction of the time pthers have.


I wear a lot of armor too, just like Aaron in the post above me.
I have had to learn to calibrate in a different way in the ful plate. When I wear that, I take just abotu everything, it has to be a really really light or flat shot for me to not take it.
Or again I get accused of wearing more armor to game the system.

[Tyr Palenske]

Clean with tone, the tone tells me if it had mass behind it or was just tape sliding.

[MTNScout]

I think a solid shot that doens't require me to think about it.

My general philosophy is that if I have to pause and think about it then it's probably not good, though I will take the hit in the event of a tie.

[Aaron]

Given that our armour standard is for wearing mail effectively from temples to thigh, and heavy leather (same effectiveness IMO) on the arm, I try and accept a uniform shot across the board. No matter where it lands on me, I should accept that shot at a given force. So if I think it would be a good shot to the forearm, I'll call that same shot good to the helm.

Cup shots are always accepted as good, regardless of the impact force. If you've hit my cup I've royally messed up and will salute your skill and retired. I shouldn't lead with the family jewels.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

If it hits me hard enough that I know it was the INTENT of the opponent to hit me - a good, solid "whunk" that got past my defenses. How do I define "whunk"? By getting hit. I make a point in practice (and any training) with a newer fighter to allow an opening for them to exploit. They recognize an opening, they learn to exploit it and I re-assess my calibration.

And if someone jukes of feints me out of my leine <cough>Brannos<cough> they don't have to hit me particularly hard at all. Just let me know you meant to do it.

If I have to think about it, I'll take it. Err on the side of angels.

It doesn't have to gray me out, or be "killing force" or anything like that. That's frankly stupid, and unnecessary.

Frankly I would rather my opponent try to NOT knock me unconsious, thankyouverymuch.


.

[Aaron]

Or again I get accused of wearing more armor to game the system.

Yep. IMO we do get judged on our armour. I still like my armour.

Once they understand I'll take anything up to a tickle, they unclench and play nicely again. But yes, sometimes I don't know I've been hit. And if I sense something is amiss, I'll ask. Or, I'll drop my guard suddenly so they can get a good shot in, and we can discuss this later (I forfit basically).

[Baron Eirik]

If it hits me hard enough that I know it was the INTENT of the opponent to hit me - a good, solid "whunk" that got past my defenses. How do I define "whunk"? By getting hit. I make a point in practice (and any training) with a newer fighter to allow an opening for them to exploit. They recognize an opening, they learn to exploit it and I re-assess my calibration.

And if someone jukes of feints me out of my leine <cough>Brannos<cough> they don't have to hit me particularly hard at all. Just let me know you meant to do it.

If I have to think about it, I'll take it. Err on the side of angels.

It doesn't have to gray me out, or be "killing force" or anything like that. That's frankly stupid, and unnecessary.

Frankly I would rather my opponent try to NOT knock me unconsious, thankyouverymuch.


.

Yup. That pretty much covers what I want.

[Heath B fraychef]

for me any shot that hits with decent force enough to move my head against its will i will most likely take.
my particular helm make shots glance very easily but we are supposed to be wearing specific armor so i try to gauge by those standards.
but then again im told i take light shots.
either way im not in this to get hurt and dont ever expect to get a white belt im just having a good time.
i would rather take light than have my head knocked off by some jackass who thinks i just wont take his shots.

[Nissan Maxima]

First some Bias. My helmet weighs 22 pounds and is padded by having a street hockey goalie mask installed inside. It is .5 inches thick across the brow. Therefore my helmet does NOT move when hit hardly ever.

So for a face thrust, I have to see it. If it hits me low on the cheek sometimes I miss those, and if someone asks, I apologise and they win. Atlantians and Westys do not pose this problem, I can hear the impact.

For a head shot, I need to hear a crisp sound. You all know that sound. Glances sound very different from clean hits. If I hear a lot of noise from the plates protecting my neck, which I get sometime from wraps, I just take it. Sometimes in these cases my opponents tell me not to.

[Koops]

I wear full steel. If I can hear the sound of a hit I take it, rarely feel anything. Honestly, I just like to wear the armor, could care a less about winning and I am sure it reflects in my fighting.

I would hope I bring some joy to the person who beat me even tho I pretty much forfeit stepping on the field, I just prefer looking good losing then looking bad winning. My legs are very close to period so I cannot comfortably kneel in them, and cannot sit back on my heels at all, I generally just submit after a leg shot.

If I only took the shots I could feel, we would be in for a long day =) Strangely, steel armor really does work. I would be soooooo tickled if armor had the same characteristics as the SCA shield, we would be having the fourth medieval arms race! woot!

[Leo Medii]

Hits with enough power to move the head a slight amount on its own.

Same power as a leg, arm or body shot.

I don't go by noise because we use weapons that do not have rattan on some surfaces.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Visual, auditory and movement are all clues that can be used. Experience is important.

[Gregoire de Lyon]

I can hear it or there is some movement. Anything less than that someone will scream I'm a rhino. So that's what I call as good. If it's a good friend who won't try and ban me and we're just having fun at practice I'd up it to "my head moved a bit".

Aaron, no disrespect, but from everything you post here you seem to have only met and fought the biggest jerks in the Society...


----

So as not to completely derail the thread:

I'll be honest and say that it depends.

If I'm fighting a new guy at practice I will take stuff that is clean and seems like it was meant to hit me where it hit me. I'll then tell him that it was clean but probably should be dialed up some. When fighting unbelts that I know are pushing hard, or knights, I try to be more discerning in what I take - it needs to hit with some authoritative *thunk* and move my head. Not a lot, but enough that we both know that I lost the fight.

Of course with the discerning shot acceptance there is occassioanlly "that look" when I say "light". You know the one - the eyebrows disappear up into the helmet... That's when we have a conversation.

If I am fighting in a tournament or melee, regardless of who my opponent is, I am not going to let them get away with slop. I want the blow to land with an authoritative *thunk*. Which isn't to say that the blow needs to be HARD, just correct. I need to know that what hit me wasn't your shield, my buddy's poelarm haft, or your basket on the return.

In general, I think that my calibration is pretty middle of the road. My practices seem to be in line with those that I train with as well.


At no time should a helm shot hurt. Period.

[Dafydd]

For me, it's a combination of sound and perceived force. Er, well...it's probably like that for most anyone, I suppose.

My current helm, an Illusion close helm, is pretty substantial and it doesn't ring. That means that it's not going to move much at all on a "good" hit, nor will it amplify the sound of the blow into making me think it's harder than it was. But I can feel the difference between a blow that lands cleanly with decent force, one that lands cleanly with insufficient force, and a glancing blow. Like any fighter with a new helm, it took me a while to learn these differences when I got it, and then had to learn all over again when I changed the padding setup.

That "transmitted force" thing is the key, really. I think we are able to perceive the subtle differences between blows because there seems to be some sort of organic accelerometer in our noggins (this may really be the case...don't know anatomy well enough to say). It seems easier to do this with head shots than with shots that land anywhere else.

More directly to the original question, a good shot to the helmet momentarily becomes the only thing in my conscious mind. Not for more than an instant, and it doesn't have to "rock my socks," but at the instant it lands, it's the only thing I'm aware of, and I know it was good. There is no need to think about what happened. This isn't a perfect process, though (at least not for me), so it's not the only way I determine the "good" threshold.

If I have to perform an instantaneous review, and that review's first conclusion is that it was no good, then I don't accept the blow. If, however, I'm experiencing doubt, then I count the shot. This is a very quick process, a sort of "wow, I really don't know about that one, so I'm taking it" thing. I've had good, honorable opponents say, "no, don't take that one...it sucked" in some cases, too.

[Count Johnathan]

Describe as best you can what a good shot to your helmet is like to experience. Include as much detail as neccesary.

It's jarring to be struck with a good blow to the head. Often there is a very short but loud "CRAAANG" sound and a slight but unintended movement of my head.

That's what it's like from inside my hat. From the outside it just sounds like a "TINK" sound. Spectators can tell it's good if I take it and fall down or salute my opponent and take a knee.

If I must pause and consider the blow I consider it as a stun and accept the blow. If it doesn't make me pause and think about it it wasn't good. Some of course don't even need to be thought about though because sometimes in this game you get your socks rocked and we all know what that is like.

[Duke Areus]

If it makes a noise and moves my helmet/head, even ever so slightly, then it was good. If it hits my face, it was good.

Touching on the "noise", that alone cannot be considered a factor, because sometimes, in fact quite often, the loudest shots were the skippiest and lightest. I have quite often taken shots that felt like I got nuked and rang my ears somethin fierce, all to find out later it was my shield hitting my head (lost a crown that way)

I also try to test all my helms by having someone throw a good stout shot, a light clean shot, a shot to my shield while it's against my head, and a skippy off the dome shot so I can hear the different tones.

[Glaukos the Athenian]

Describe as best you can what a good shot to your helmet is like to experience. Include as much detail as neccesary.

It's jarring to be struck with a good blow to the head. Often there is a very short but loud "CRAAANG" sound and a slight but unintended movement of my head.

It is nice to agree with an experienced fighter. Pretty much the same here.
I recall the very first one, taught to me by Baron Miguel, in my very first fighting session. It is loud, it rocks your head a bit and it feels solid, without hurting you.

IMHO a "good" shot should not unscrew your head from its socket or even leave you dazed. And the best shots are the ones with just enough force so you feel them and think "dam he got me good!" as opposed to "damn that hurt through the helmet!".

Good and hard are not necessarily the same. I make sure my equipment is safe without being excessive. IF someone hurts me through this, it is because they were hitting excessively. (So far it has not happened BTW and most booboos came from hits on areas I did not choose to armour up)

Lastly, I believe that one should keep one's conscious awareness of calibration during a fight as much as combat tactical awareness. Indeed, we can teach ourselves to be tough and ignore pain, etc, but then in the heat of a fight, it can make one shrug a good blow. When in doubt, I either ask or accept it.

My 2 cents

Glaukos the Athenian

[Jofthepeace]

If it hits me hard enough that I know it was the INTENT of the opponent to hit me - a good, solid "whunk" that got past my defenses. How do I define "whunk"? By getting hit. I make a point in practice (and any training) with a newer fighter to allow an opening for them to exploit. They recognize an opening, they learn to exploit it and I re-assess my calibration.

And if someone jukes of feints me out of my leine <cough>Brannos<cough> they don't have to hit me particularly hard at all. Just let me know you meant to do it.

If I have to think about it, I'll take it. Err on the side of angels.

It doesn't have to gray me out, or be "killing force" or anything like that. That's frankly stupid, and unnecessary.

Frankly I would rather my opponent try to NOT knock me unconsious, thankyouverymuch.


.

THIS! And if it glances, 90% of the time the fighter will speak up and say to not take that shot.....

[dukelogan]

simple, i feel an acceptable amount of force transfered to my head. enough transfers, its good. not enough then its either light or i rolled out of the power or both. doesnt have to stun me or hurt me (neither of those have ever happened, not once), just needs that level of transfer.

regards
logan

[Varukh]

helmet moves, ears ring, i groan and say, "GOOD!" nuf said.

[Vitus von Atzinger]

Alot more variety here than I expected. My explanation will be pretty ridiculous.

[Sigifrith Hauknefr]

So for a face thrust, I have to see it. If it hits me low on the cheek sometimes I miss those, and if someone asks, I apologise and they win. Atlantians and Westys do not pose this problem, I can hear the impact..

I just want to say... worst moment of my life was apologizing to Nissan after I pasted him with a thrust. I did not, at the time, realize how his Mempo was attached, and "geographically" he comes from a place with notoriously (to me) suspect head gear.... and mempos/face plate have a tendency to cut your head if they are not very sturdy (like Nissans...).

Uh, I like to get some momentum transfer to my head. If I get a clean shot that makes noise or hits weird (on the conical?) I will ask if I don't think it was certainly good. I also move and dodge my head a lot which causes shots to hit funny (sometimes light, sometimes not)

It also depends on how badly I was owned on the "play" (for marginal shots... a stout shot is stout now matter "how" it came about).
For example, I have a stupid thing that I do where I block and throw a head
shot on an up-angle from a low shoulder position. If I get the angle or positioning wrong I go RIGHT past the head and end up rotating my back to my opponent while move past them. You can watch me do this in Crown Finals (June 2010), first fight. Titus (currently HRM) just lunges forward and taps me in the back of the neck (I go past him nearly out of range), which I take (although it was quite light) because of my extreme stupidity.

[Corby de la Flamme]

I've always described all blows as "much much harder than you would ever want to be hit with by a rattan stick if you weren't wearing armor."

Light shots to the helm? Sure, they might hurt. They might mess up your ear or cut your scalp.

A good shot with no helmet on? You are not going to get up and someone else has to call the ambulance.

[Nissan Maxima]

So for a face thrust, I have to see it. If it hits me low on the cheek sometimes I miss those, and if someone asks, I apologise and they win. Atlantians and Westys do not pose this problem, I can hear the impact..

I just want to say... worst moment of my life was apologizing to Nissan after I pasted him with a thrust. I did not, at the time, realize how his Mempo was attached, and "geographically" he comes from a place with notoriously (to me) suspect head gear.... and mempos/face plate have a tendency to cut your head if they are not very sturdy (like Nissans...).

If that is the worst moment of your life you need to get out more.

[dukelogan]

really? how sure are you of that? i doubt, with all sincerity, that 99% of sca guys could throw a head shot with rattan to a bare head and stop a fight. ive been hit in the head with a stickball bat (a few times during the incident) and once with a wooden baseball bat (walked into it accidently). both didnt feel good, but neither was close to ending my day.

you guys shpuld all look into the amount of real force a proper sin kick delivers and then study how many real fights those end. we are talking about strikes that break 4" x 4"'s (among other things) and yet, somehow, a tiny percentage of fights have ever ended with arm blocks that break arms, body shots that break ribs (liver shots not withstanding) or leg shots that break legs (ernesto hoost being that one example. sure a good percentage of clean shin kicks to the mellon have made folks talk with dead relatives. but this idea that the human body is so fragile causes more conceptual problems than any good.

of course this all has to do with the question of "what are we really doing?" our rules suggest we win when we "kill" someone in armour. this is stupid since we accept any arrow that contacts us, mild forced face thrusts or less, someone punching someone else with an axe, etc. the wording is bad. i dont know a better way to word our victory conditions that follow the whole "tournament fighting, amoured warrior elite, european folk" kinda thing. we dont really know what they did, what really worked, or even what tournies were really like. nope, this is our sport and we should embrace that, enjoy it, make it fair yet difficult to succeed, and enjoy some level of assumed safety. i cant think of a cooler sport than ours. by far the best! hell even old men like me, corby,and even that dirty nissan can still enjoy it and have a chance at being called "winner" for a day.

but we have to be better educated about how tough this incredible machine our human body is and give some credit to how impressive the human spirit is. all in the interest of protecting our most awesome, and fun, and gard, our sport is. not to mention how truly overwhelming the culture of our brotherhood really is. it can be better but its pretty f'n top notch as it is!

regards
logan

I've always described all blows as "much much harder than you would ever want to be hit with by a rattan stick if you weren't wearing armor."

Light shots to the helm? Sure, they might hurt. They might mess up your ear or cut your scalp.

A good shot with no helmet on? You are not going to get up and someone else has to call the ambulance.

[Columb]

Most shots I recieve are in the region of the temple, so that is what I am best at calling.

I call based on three factors: noise, force and surprise.

If a shot came "out of nowhere" (ie, completely defeated my defenses) and has any momentum transfer into my head, I'll take it.

For normal shots, I want to feel momentum transfer into my head. This is hard to describe, but I can feel it when a shot is skimming up or a surface shot that going around, rather than through. It feels different.

If I hear my faceplate bars rattle, it was good.

A weakness that I have noticed recently is correctly judging shots that hit me in the back of the head. Probably because of the way my padded suspension liner and attached aventail work, shots that hit me in the back of the head, about ear-level, feel like a tap with no momentum transfer - they don't move my head.

I was fighting Kind Edmund in the bye of November crown, from my knees, when he wound up and wrapped me in the back of the head. I kept fighting, slightly surprised because the body mechanics looked great and I didn't manage to block, but it felt like a tap.

Then he did it again. Same mechanics, same feeling. Well, the penny dropped and I realised it's unlikely to be a problem with the king's technique . So I fell over.

Long story short: I've been fighting for about three years and I'm *still* learning how to take shots!

Regards,

Columb

[Kilkenny]

Describe as best you can what a good shot to your helmet is like to experience. Include as much detail as neccesary.

The thing about a good shot is that I know it hit me. Not just the surface of my hat. It feels like if the helm weren't there the blow would have reached my head and struck with force.

Doesn't need to hurt. In fact, it really really shouldn't ever hurt. Not through the helm.

In 35 years of fighting I've had a couple of cuts - very early on while learning to pad helms, and then in the last three or four years I had a problem where my bascinet slipped on me a couple of times. I've had one, and only one, strike to the helm in SCA fighting that gave me a headache. That came from Vissevald. I got a sore neck from a Marklander, years ago, who was telling me all about how safe facethrusts were and then proceeded to blast me into next week with a shot that pezzed my head like nothing else ever has.

Considering some of the people I have fought over the years, I think they could have done more damage. I hope I never gave them reason ...

[Corwin_Roberts]

A light hit makes me go, "Huh? WTF was that?"

A good hit makes me go, "Well, crap, I got hit."

A GOOD hit makes me go, "YEAH! That was AWESOME!"

An excessive hit makes me go sit down.

[Tyr Palenske]

Alot more variety here than I expected. My explanation will be pretty ridiculous.

Might make you feel better if you explained anyway, just sayin.

[RoaK]

I wear a kettle helm and I can't really go by sound... (I'm fighting in a bell for Pete's sake) the helm does have considerable weight to it though and thanks to Adam Berry's fantastic chinstrap system he made for his kettle helms if I feel a shot move through the chinstrap system into my jaw its a good one and I take it. Thats a "good" shot at minimal force required to deliver it... stouter blows are easy to pick up on.

Sometimes I'll take a shot and my opponet will insist I not take it as he hit the edge of the brim... I let my opponent call a brim shot, I do not, I take them as kills.

[Broadway]

My boss has this theory that when we're surveying a piece of property, and the record boundary line calls for 100' and we get 125'... we don't ask how that dude could have fucked up by 25'. We ask ourselves how we could have fucked up by 25'. And 9 times out of 10, we fucked up by 25'.

Mayhaps you're asking the wrong questions, your Grace.

really? how sure are you of that? i doubt, with all sincerity, that 99% of sca guys could throw a head shot with rattan to a bare head and stop a fight. ive been hit in the head with a stickball bat (a few times during the incident) and once with a wooden baseball bat (walked into it accidently). both didnt feel good, but neither was close to ending my day.

you guys shpuld all look into the amount of real force a proper sin kick delivers and then study how many real fights those end. we are talking about strikes that break 4" x 4"'s (among other things) and yet, somehow, a tiny percentage of fights have ever ended with arm blocks that break arms, body shots that break ribs (liver shots not withstanding) or leg shots that break legs (ernesto hoost being that one example. sure a good percentage of clean shin kicks to the mellon have made folks talk with dead relatives. but this idea that the human body is so fragile causes more conceptual problems than any good.

of course this all has to do with the question of "what are we really doing?" our rules suggest we win when we "kill" someone in armour. this is stupid since we accept any arrow that contacts us, mild forced face thrusts or less, someone punching someone else with an axe, etc. the wording is bad. i dont know a better way to word our victory conditions that follow the whole "tournament fighting, amoured warrior elite, european folk" kinda thing. we dont really know what they did, what really worked, or even what tournies were really like. nope, this is our sport and we should embrace that, enjoy it, make it fair yet difficult to succeed, and enjoy some level of assumed safety. i cant think of a cooler sport than ours. by far the best! hell even old men like me, corby,and even that dirty nissan can still enjoy it and have a chance at being called "winner" for a day.

but we have to be better educated about how tough this incredible machine our human body is and give some credit to how impressive the human spirit is. all in the interest of protecting our most awesome, and fun, and gard, our sport is. not to mention how truly overwhelming the culture of our brotherhood really is. it can be better but its pretty f'n top notch as it is!

regards
logan

I've always described all blows as "much much harder than you would ever want to be hit with by a rattan stick if you weren't wearing armor."

Light shots to the helm? Sure, they might hurt. They might mess up your ear or cut your scalp.

A good shot with no helmet on? You are not going to get up and someone else has to call the ambulance.

[Vitus von Atzinger]

By "good" don't we mean having martial validity? Like Logan I have been hit with lotsa stuff- full beer bottles, pool cues, chairs etc.

Each "good" shot in one of these melees took a tiny bit of the fight out of me. Taking the whole fight out of me? You need to knock me out.

Thus, going down to the first good shot means accepting the first one (in the kill zone ) that has martial validity. A knot on my head? A brutal contusion? Split my scalp like a green pea? Cut the shit out of my face?

These are all good blows, because they would injure me.

This idea that a blow must make you want to sit down (while you are wearing armour for god's sake) is not the same thing as the idea of a sword blow having martial validity. If a sword point tippy-taps you in the eye, guess what? Your eye is gone! Scrapes across the front of your skull? Guess what? You are cut bad and ugly for life!!

Shearing tip shots are intenely dangerous with real swords- they WILL cut mail and whatever is beneath, and yet we consider tippy blows utterly without martial validity. Any blow that would bruise you through mail has martial validity. These people who are looking for an incapacitating blow are thinking in a way that should have nothing to do with the word "good."

An incapacitating blow with a steel sword would be nearly-incapacitating with a rattan club. By incapacitating I mean exactly that - making you unable to continue. The language of the Society Marshall's Handbook is (once again) fuc*ing retarded.