Battle Of Nations Team USA. Calling all Live Steel Fighters

[seabrig]

hey guys, I'm back from Kiev. and the BoN Captain's meeting. Its time to start putting together the details about Team USA BoN. I should be getting a facebook page for Team USA up soon. I think that's the best way to keep things going. I'm shooting for page name BattleofnationUSA
Date for the event, April 30th, May 1 & 2nd.
Location, Ukraine. No visa issues.
Getting there: we may get some financial support(maybe)
Equipment support (they will help with getting weapons for us when we get there)
Camp support, (They can supply us a place to sleep)
So all we need to do is bring our gear, and a can of whoop ass.

Note, for the moment I'm the named captain for the USA team because I was the one who was most in contact with the international group. Its about doing the job to get you guys over there not about a title, or rank or something like that. I really want to see a Team USA. I dont care if you are sca, or Adrian Emp. or any of the other Reenactment groups. If you want hard core full contact live steel combat this is the chance to do it. We are getting in on the ground level of something I think will only grow and grow.
even if you don't want to participate you can support the team that's great too. Just let me know. I will be posting a recap of what I learned here and on my facebook page in a few days.
@Nissian--contact me please, I cant find your email. I would really like to host you at our winter Revel event in Michigan so we can talk. My address is Seabrig29@aol.com

Again Everyone Else Contact me with Questions and Comments. one idea of promoting the discussion is to have an informal class/info session at some events. Think of it as a cross cultural class. I'm very open to other ideas.

[Randy Bobbyson]

My first thought is you should design support t-shirt/hoodies forsale. I would buy some, and think I could get other in my area to buy some aswell.

[Nissan Maxima]

e-mail sent. Feel free to call the mobile number listed. Suzerain is making me a sword.

[Donald St. Colin]

Email sent requesting weapon and armor standards.

[Chris Cottrell]

"Live" steel? As in "sharp?" Or are you talking about rebated weapons?

[seabrig]

correct, I guess that's the wrong term to use. Rebated is what they use. I'm waiting for the new rules translation from this last week's meeting. but the weapons have new weight limits, but not thickness however I believe from all the weapons I saw minimum was 2.5mm

[J.G.Elmslie]

"Live" steel? As in "sharp?" Or are you talking about rebated weapons?

its rebated.

"live" steel is such a absurd term, I have no idea why people use it... do they think that a sharp is going to suddenly fire off, seeking for the nearest baby to impale, at any opportunity?

Rebated, or sharps.
that's all the terminology you need, really.

well, some use "butterknife-sharp" for the "not sharp enough to cut, but not blunt enough to be safe to spar with" types, too.

correct, I guess that's the wrong term to use. Rebated is what they use. I'm waiting for the new rules translation from this last week's meeting. but the weapons have new weight limits, but not thickness however I believe from all the weapons I saw minimum was 2.5mm

Ack, have the weapon specs been changed again?

please can you post those up here as soon as you 've got 'em?

[Norman]

Why Facebook?

Can we not have a regular website?
Or Yahoo list?

BTW: At least theoreticaly, I am very interested
(I just wish I had training oportunities)

Please use the Armour Archive PM as my contact

BTW(2) - If you are interested in creating graphics (T-shirts and whatnot), I would be happy to work with you.
Some of my art http://www.srdarts.com/

[seabrig]

I like the idea of facebook, because
1, its free.
2. It doesn't take design work to do it.
3. everyone can have input on it.

so the web page for facebook is. Battle of the Nations Team USA

Sure a USA webpage would be great but I think until there can be clear ownership of the Team USA I think facebook is a good idea. However if someone wants to design, and freely host the web page I'm all for it.
This brings into yet one other question that will some day need to be discussed and that is how will the BOTN/USA be organized and governed? Right now I'm doing the Captain thing because I've not heard from Jason who did a lot of preliminary work and thanks to him on that. However since I used to live in Ukraine and had experience there I though I would step up and do what I can. I say this question stay in the back of peoples minds and after our first competition we begin to think of these issues. If someone had ideas on that please hold of on them at least for a little while, just until after we have one successful event under our belt.

As for the Rules changing again? No I don't think the rules have changed, There was just some clarification on some points at the meeting in Kiev. And honestly the meeting in Kiev was not exactly everything I was thinking it would be. Basically it was the three main teams saying "ok these are the rules and the changes we made, we will translate them and send out" That was the highlight. Still it was a good time, and good to meet the other captains.

[Kaliban]

i would like ot know more

[Rhyos]

Same here. Is there a website for this tournament, or any sort of information? This is the first I've heard of it!

[Nissan Maxima]

http://unknown-ukraine.co.uk/articles/battle-nations

http://steelknights.wordpress.com/

[Rhyos]

Thanks, Nissan! Time to start studying!

[Noe]

I'm still trying to find some rules.

[seabrig]

The current rules are posted on their web page, battleofthenations.com.ua

Let me know if you have a problem after you check it out.
I am still waiting for the revised rules and will post a link to them when I get them.

[Noe]

Um

4.1.2. Prohibited techniques of battle are:
- Thrusting with the tip of a bladed weapon. 
- Blows to the enemy unauthorized striking areas;
- Blows to fallen opponent or one who rising.  
- Blows to an opponent who has lost their weapons;
- Hitting with the edge of the shield below the belt, in the head and neck of the enemy;
- Strikes with your head;
- Kicking or kneeing your opponent;
- Hooking, wrestling throws and grabbing your opponent;
- Punches and elbows strikes;
- Strikes with hilt or pommel of weapon
- Grabbing the body, head and limbs of the enemy, capturing the enemy’s equipment with your hands. (This includes the swords and shield).
4.2. Bastard sword.


I'm confused. The sample videos vie seen show them doing all these things.

[Hrolfr]

James, are you in back in Lansing?

If so, drop me a pm please

H

[seabrig]

you are correct in asking Hu?
You took the 4.2 set of prohibited techniques from the 1 on 1 combat.
If you click on the 5 on 5 and 21 on 21 you will find most of those things are not prohibited. all the videos of are the mass battles and so I can understand the confusion. So yes, the rules are correct, you cant do those things in the 1 on 1 because they are points based fights. Where as the 5 on 5 and so, are based on getting your opponent down. so kicking, punching, hitting with the shield are allow. helps?

and Yes, I'm back in lansing, have been for about 3 years now. You asked me that 3 years ago.

[rameymj]

Seriously doubt that I can do 2011. Maybe 2012.

[Donald St. Colin]

Um

4.1.2. Prohibited techniques of battle are:
- Thrusting with the tip of a bladed weapon. 
- Blows to the enemy unauthorized striking areas;
- Blows to fallen opponent or one who rising.  
- Blows to an opponent who has lost their weapons;
- Hitting with the edge of the shield below the belt, in the head and neck of the enemy;
- Strikes with your head;
- Kicking or kneeing your opponent;
- Hooking, wrestling throws and grabbing your opponent;
- Punches and elbows strikes;
- Strikes with hilt or pommel of weapon
- Grabbing the body, head and limbs of the enemy, capturing the enemy’s equipment with your hands. (This includes the swords and shield).
4.2. Bastard sword.


I'm confused. The sample videos vie seen show them doing all these things.

Check the SCA rule book and then look at our videos. Its all grey in the mele.

[SirAngus]

Damn the dates... Im booked for australia all may...

But, Ive had alot of international sword fighting experience. Never with these guys but what Ive done could easily translate.

I have a training facility in Amesbury MA and Id be more than happy to hold a training camp for those who are interested.

[Donald St. Colin]

I would like to hear more about weapons construction techniques. Both for the swords and pole arms.

Is anyone selling blade blanks?

[J.G.Elmslie]

I would like to hear more about weapons construction techniques. Both for the swords and pole arms.

Is anyone selling blade blanks?

Armour construction is clarified as:

Marterials For Armor
Stainless steel is allowed at the present but it minimal use is encouraged since it is not known to have existed within the Middle Ages.

Titanium is allowed hidden protection but not for exposed armor, i.e. coat of plates yes, breast plate no.

Aluminum is not allowed for use in armor.


Materials For Shields
When constructing shields the first and foremost rule is, of course, its correspondence to the historical analogue as with all things the reenactors (combatants) use. If you can provide visual or written source – it will work. And, surely, the material should be natural: for shields it’s mostly wood, although very few steel shields were found.

Weapons construction is stated as

Sword-Buckler:
- The sword:
- The length of the blade (from hilt to the tip) - from 60 to 80 cm;
- The length of the handle (including hilt and pommel) - from 12 to 20 cm; ;.
- The center of gravity shall be no closer than 10 cm from the hilt in the direction of the blade.
- Diameter of curvature of the tip of combat - not less than 15 mm for double edged swords and 10 mm for curved or single edged swords.;
- Chopping blade edge should be not less than 2 mm and rounded.
Parameters of bladed weapons: "hand and a half sword":
- The length of the blade (Hilt to the tip) - from 80 to 100 cm;
- The length of the handle (including the Hilt and pommel) from 20 to 35 cm;
- The center of gravity - no closer than 5 cm from the hilt in the direction of the blade.

is is also noted that:

1.5. Any weapons having historical analogues and admitted by the historical-technical Commission are allowed.

So,
standard sword construction is based solely off historical precedent:


So, steel blade, metal cross and pommel, peined construction, with wooden hilt wrapped in a bit of dead sheep or goat, and stuck between two planks of wood covered in a coo's arse.

course, if it were that easy, anyone could make 'em.

Oakeshott typology hilts only. Expected to be historically accurate to the BoN's target dates, which are, I recall, mid 11th- mid 16th C? (dont quote me on that bit, I'm going from memory there.)

Historical accuracy aside, I would personally strongly reccommend the use of a broader cross-section tang in any replica sword, however. energy transmission does'nt go through the other participant in the fighting, and that can put a lot more strain on the tang than originals had. As the tang's covered by the hilt, the detail of this alteration is'nt visible (unless you're blessed with x-ray vision) and will save your weapon being broken faster.

(its one of the reason I do not reccommend the use of blunted replicas like del tins, for reenactment.)



So, blades: heat-treated medium to high carbon steel. 5160spec alloy is popular, D1/O2 type steels I would not reccommend for rebated use. EN45 / US Spec 9260 alloy is what I would personally reccommend as by far the best alloy spec for rebated use (ironically, for all the same reasons that it's not as good for a real, sharp swordblade)

Blade geometry, profile and distal taper, use of fullering etc are all down to personal choice, of course, and open to whatever you want, in terms of detailing. Rebated edge geometry of a 2mm rounded edge minimum tends to preclude hollowgrinds, though. the point tip needs to be of at least 15mm diameter, which precludes estocs.

Polearms, I'm not certain they are being permitted, certainly for the 1vs1/5vs5 bouts, as the rules have not been specified for them. I would guess that if they are legal (and contact Natalia to check) then the specs are the same as swords: accurate documentable historical construction, weight limits they'll spec, and metal components consisting of radiused edge, and spec radiused point.

As for where to get a blade...
I suspect you're too late.

I know its too late for me to offer my skills for comissions, this would've been needed to be done at 3-4 months ago to have much chance of me (or most other custom makers) delivering on time to be with a customer by the end of March. ( I assume a month to get used to a weapon's personal feel, at least, and for international delivery, that would also require at least a fortnight's disaster time, in case customs losing the package.).

I dont know many suppliers who are absolutely certain could get weapons produced in time, Albion Swords "maestro" range of WMA rebated swords may be delivered, particularly as they're a US maker, though I'm personally not too keen on their stuff. (but that's personal taste. you might love 'em). I dont think they will sell bare blades for sparring kit though. plus you'll need scabbards and the grip completely rehilted for them. $450+ for a sword that's hilted with hemp twine? that's a ****ing ripoff, I'll say. for that price, I'll do the hilt in the customer's choice of leathers, spiral bound wire, rayskin or even do them in horn....

Arms and Armor prduce some nice bits, but its mostly designed for the WMA community, rather than the reenactment community, and the one I've handled struck me as feeling a little bit... floppy. to ensure the safety for sparring it's not got the presence of blade of armourclass, which are more dedicated to reenatment/tournament fighting.

Armourclass in glasgow are my first choice, and I'll never stop singing their praises, and its them who produce my blades. I'd personally never trust anyone else's blades for cmbat.
but at this time of year, they're probably not going to be available much till the 5ht of january, and if you order a sword, the chances of having it from them in time for the start of April is a lottery. if they have it in stock, you'll be sorted, but otherwise, you've not got good chances of them getting it to you on time, uless you *really* want to pay.... Armourclass' off-the-shelf weapons have a 4-6month production time normally, and their custom work is, while great, on a glacial schedule.

Pavel Moc might be possible, but I know he's been pretty heavily backed up in production too, and would't be surprised if he could'nt.

Paul Binns does good blades, but I know he's got a 6 month waiting list too now.

I dont think Mike Vickers hasnt anything rebated for sale just now, and I'm not sure if his schedule is possible to get it done in time.

I personally would'nt reccommend Heron Armoury, I've seen a number of their blades fail of late, so till I hear otherwise, they're on my "dont trust" list.


the standard stuff from the likes of Kovex-ars is shit. Tough as russian tanks, probably made from them too. weighs enough to be. would'nt reccommend lutel for the same reason.

Hanwei practicals, they're pretty crap n'all. you can certainly get one easily enough in time, but you'll be throwing it in the bin after the BoN, if its anything lke the ones I've used. Assuming it lasts that long. some of them are dogs, and there's little consistency between batches.

Pavel Marek does some very pretty stuff, and is'nt too well known. he might have stuff in stock, but I've yet to hear reviews of his stuff for longterm durabiliity. He might sell blanks.

Darkwood is an american company making blades, but I gather they're screw fittings, not peined. you could try calling them and asking though, they might do one which is peined. Cant comment on if they're up to the job in metal quality though.


erm, that's the ones I can think of offhand. If you want some for 2012 BoN, I can certainly think about them though, once I've completed Nissan's, and a few other customers'.

if you want an overvie of construction techniques for making swords, I'm happy to explain some of it, (without giving away too many tricks!), but I'd really not reccommend taking that path to have a weapon for this, unless you've got a lot of fabrication experience, and have plenty of experience studying and handling museum originals, to understand how they perform, and how to replicate those characteristics...
if you want me to write up a summary, just ask.

[Donald St. Colin]

From the BOTN site promo videos it looks like axes are almost more numerous than swords. Falcions seem to dominate the sword catagory. Are they no longer using them since the videos?

[seabrig]

From the BOTN site promo videos it looks like axes are almost more numerous than swords. Falcions seem to dominate the sword catagory. Are they no longer using them since the videos?

Actualy, I'm not sure thats true, It was discussed in Kiev on the 10th and I think the ruling was allowed, but as with all the weapons they are adding a weight limit.
Yes, I know, I dont have the translation yet of the new rule changes. I'm asking for them. Thats the best I can do.

[Jonathan Baird]

I want to remind everyone that I noticed that the teams in the videos were carrying the modern and historic flags of their respective countries please dont forget to bring old glory.

[Nissan Maxima]

I have a good news bad news tiding.

My late father, Dr Sylvan Stool, is being honoured by the creation of an award in his name in the field he helped create at their largest national meeting. (American Society of Pediatic Otolaryngologists) Anyway, I have been invited to present this award, with my entire family in attendance.

But. Its the same weekend of the BoN. Fuck. There are 52 weekends in the year. These have to be the on the same one.

I can't blow this off. I just can't.

I feel terrible.

I am sorry. I cant do the BoN this year. I will still train, and get together with people that want to experiment with this ruleset. My kit will be ready. I will just have to wait a year.

I hope someone else goes. But I wanted it to be me.

[Aaron]

Family first sir. Well done, even if it hurts. I admire that.

[juan]

hey guys, I'm back from Kiev. and the BoN Captain's meeting. Its time to start putting together the details about Team USA BoN. I should be getting a facebook page for Team USA up soon. I think that's the best way to keep things going. I'm shooting for page name BattleofnationUSA
Date for the event, April 30th, May 1 & 2nd.
Location, Ukraine. No visa issues.
Getting there: we may get some financial support(maybe)
Equipment support (they will help with getting weapons for us when we get there)
Camp support, (They can supply us a place to sleep)
So all we need to do is bring our gear, and a can of whoop ass.

Note, for the moment I'm the named captain for the USA team because I was the one who was most in contact with the international group. Its about doing the job to get you guys over there not about a title, or rank or something like that. I really want to see a Team USA. I dont care if you are sca, or Adrian Emp. or any of the other Reenactment groups. If you want hard core full contact live steel combat this is the chance to do it. We are getting in on the ground level of something I think will only grow and grow.
even if you don't want to participate you can support the team that's great too. Just let me know. I will be posting a recap of what I learned here and on my facebook page in a few days.
@Nissian--contact me please, I cant find your email. I would really like to host you at our winter Revel event in Michigan so we can talk. My address is Seabrig29@aol.com

Again Everyone Else Contact me with Questions and Comments. one idea of promoting the discussion is to have an informal class/info session at some events. Think of it as a cross cultural class. I'm very open to other ideas.

Have you posted this on <a href="http://swordforum.com/">SwordForum</a>?

[Baron Alcyoneus]

I have a good news bad news tiding.

My late father, Dr Sylvan Stool, is being honoured by the creation of an award in his name in the field he helped create at their largest national meeting. (American Society of Pediatic Otolaryngologists) Anyway, I have been invited to present this award, with my entire family in attendance.

But. Its the same weekend of the BoN. Fuck. There are 52 weekends in the year. These have to be the on the same one.

I can't blow this off. I just can't.

I feel terrible.

I am sorry. I cant do the BoN this year. I will still train, and get together with people that want to experiment with this ruleset. My kit will be ready. I will just have to wait a year.

I hope someone else goes. But I wanted it to be me.

You are making the right choice.


Team USA will go, and Seabrig will tell them to all wear red sashes for you. Then, he'll say "From now on if Nissan see a red sash, Nissan kills the man wearing it. So run you cur. And tell the other curs Nissan is coming. You tell 'em I'm coming! And Nissan's coming with me you hear! Nissan's coming with me!

[seabrig]

No, I did not know about sword forum. And if anyone else knows where we can cross post please dont wait for me to do so. Please cross post. Please Cross Post and send them to either the facebook page or here. Secondly I'd like to start moving more of these discussions to the face book page so we can have several different topics of discussion open at once.

Throwing this out there for thought. and this will be my first discussion on the facebook page as well.
Maybe its time to start thinking about organization and such. So lets start thinking about cohorts and units and such. I'd like two lieutenants and each lieutenant to have two Sargent. Each Sargent to have at least 5 men. That way we end up with the required 24 men needed for a total full team. its simple and works on many levels.

I like the red sash idea. I like it a lot.
Nissan will indeed be missed.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

It was a good scene in Tombstone.

[seabrig]

There are some new rules posted on the BOTN website. Sorry to say they not only do not have an English translation up, but they took away the english button totaly So thy no longer have anything in english. I hope this is just temporary.
However I did translate some of the rules that I know are new and important to know. Mostly a clarification on the weapons. weights, length, edge width. there are some other minor rules changes but I think at the moment this is what people really want to know about. So this is from the 1 on 1 section.
dont forget to also check the BOTH Team USA for news and keeping people involved.

1.4. The fight consists of 3 rounds, each round with a different pairing of weapons listed below.
- 1 st round of "Bastard Sword"

- 2 nd round of the "sword-buckler.";

- The third round of the "sword-shield";

1.5. Characterization of arms for nominations "Sword-Shield and Sword-buckler":

- Length of blade (from crossing to the point) - 60 to 80 cm;

- The length of the handle (including the crossing and the pommel) - from 12 to 20 cm;

- Weight from 1,4 to 2 kg;

- The center of gravity - no closer than 10 cm from the crossing in the direction of the blade.

- Diameter of curvature of the tip of combat - not less than 15 mm for double edged weapon and 10 mm for single-edged shells;

- blade edge should be not less than 2 mm and rounded.

Options bladed weapons for nomination hand and a half sword ":

- Length of blade (from crossing to the point) - 80 to 100 cm;

- The length of the handle (including the crossing and the pommel) from 20 to 35 cm;

- Weight from 1,8 to 3 kg;

- The center of gravity - no closer than 5 cm from the crossing in the direction of the blade.

1.6. "The zone of targeting for the " fighter (when striking the opponent gets the points) is considered every part of the body except the feet.

[J.G.Elmslie]

1.5. Characterization of arms for nominations "Sword-Shield and Sword-buckler":

- Length of blade (from crossing to the point) - 60 to 80 cm;

- The length of the handle (including the crossing and the pommel) - from 12 to 20 cm;

- Weight from 1,4 to 2 kg;

Oh fucking hell?

you're joking. Please, tell me they dont expect a single handed sword to have a minimum weight of 1.4kg? particularly witha 10cm CoG point?

My narrower fullered hand and a half swords come in under 1.4kg... some of my singlehanders sit under 1.2kg.

and 1.8kg to 3kg for hand and ahalf? that's bloody criminal, and utterly inaccurate to the historical record.
unless you're using shit by Kovex-ars, which looks (and weighs) like it was made of a soviet tank, that's absurd weights.


I am not impressed, in the slightest

Edit: and having just checked, on june 29th last year, this issue was discussed, and Natalia_UA stated that the 1.4kg weight was an error, assuring me that a minimum of 0.7kg was more likely.

Fuck. Fuck, fuck fucking cunting arse.
*goes off to kick the cat*
*has cat go "mew?" at me*
*goes to hug the cat instead*

gah.

[Nissan Maxima]

Lets make a tank of a sword then. If thats what they want me to hit them with (in 2012 dammit) than I am super good with that.