2" spear tips are now groovy.

Angusm0628 · Post by **Angusm0628** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:04 am

Just got an email regarding the Mandrake 2" spear tips are now legal (Provided they are assembled per instructions) for 9' fiberglass spears.
The following is the email Omarad sent to Kingdom Earl Marshalls.

Folks,

After receiving your reports and with the results of the November 2010 poll I have decided to allow the use of the Mandrake pre-made 2" two-handed rubber thrusting tips on Fiberglass spears up to 9' long as long as all the included foam disks are used and it is mounted exactly as per the instructions.

http://www.windrosearmoury.com/zc/index ... ucts_id=66

This will take effect on March 1st 2011.

Please publish on your Kingdom lists and in your Kingdom newsletters ASAP.

These are to be considered an equivalent to the 3" x 3" tips on fiberglass spears currently in use.

These tips will no longer be considered experimental on fiberglass spears up to 9' long.

Also, please begin experimentation on homemade 2" x 2" tips on fiberglass spears if you haven't already.

Homemade 2" x 2" tips are still considered experimental and must follow the guidelines and restrictions as outlined in the Marshal's Handbook.

Hopefully the homemade tips may gain acceptance as the learning curve is worked through with the mandrake tips.

Sean Powell · Post by **Sean Powell** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:29 am

Whee! That's going to make spear dueling a lot more deadly. That 33% reduction in diameter is a 56% reduction in surface area. Close up those gaps, stay out of range or get in close but DON'T stand at range and assume that the giant que-tips can't get you.

Sean

Angusm0628 · Post by **Angusm0628** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:44 am

My big concern is the impact effect.
Back when I was doing the experimental 2" tips here in Aethelmearc under Koredono, Graedwyn and I were spear dueling at an event. Didn't take long for either of us to figure out dialing down a little was a good thing. I have this grim image of guys lighting up one another until they get on the learning curve causing bad feelings.
Otherwise, I loved it. The handling went thru the roof.

Malcolm MacLachlan · Post by **Malcolm MacLachlan** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:40 am

I've been playing with them for months now. But on my first go around with them at Border Raids I was nervous about tearing heads off and ended up with a lot of guys missing shots. Apparently they don't feel like a typical spear shot. You do have to pull back on some shots but face and head shots are pretty much the same. The tips really shine on those previously hard to hit and make stick targets like forearms and little dangling bits of legs. The rubber tips stick better and don't glance and slide off. Plus the 1" smaller tips snake into those smaller target areas nicely. Love it.

twoswords · Post by **twoswords** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:19 am

My concern is still that quite a few people do not have well covered throats, especially when ducking and weaving around a lot.

How have the 2 inch tips felt/behaved here? Have there been any issues/concerns raised, and are we looking at a more "solid" inspection at large events where many fighters assemble?

Malcolm MacLachlan · Post by **Malcolm MacLachlan** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:34 am

No incidents that I'm aware off. Thrown right they don't hit harder than a nicely thrown sword shot or thrust. They feel more like a strike than a push. If a fighter has a throat that isn't well or legally covered I don't think it's more of a concern now than before. It'll be up to him to beef up his gorget if he has a concern. If it's not legal that should've been taken care of a long time ago.
That being said, that statement doesn't cover people who throw spear shots dangerously hard. They could injure before and they can certainly injure now. Dangerous spear fighters will be dealt with swiftly here.

DukeAvery · Post by **DukeAvery** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 12:29 pm

In a related development, marshal's courts everywhere will be adding an express lane to handle the expected upswing in spear related attrocities.

Regards

Avery

Heath B fraychef · Post by **Heath B fraychef** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 12:34 pm

if somebody gets hurt because they failed to have equipment that passes the basic rules of combat then its their fault in the first place.
i dont want to see anybody get hurt but if YOU dont follow the rules and YOU get hurt its your fault

twoswords wrote:My concern is still that quite a few people do not have well covered throats, especially when ducking and weaving around a lot.

How have the 2 inch tips felt/behaved here? Have there been any issues/concerns raised, and are we looking at a more "solid" inspection at large events where many fighters assemble?

Dafydd · Post by **Dafydd** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 1:35 pm

My niner is rattan, so I've been using a 2" tip all along. It's a fantastic piece of rattan (has to be 25 years old, dead-straight, and a nice diameter so it's not floppy); I really don't think a fiberglass spear would really hit any harder. I live out west (An Tir, and formerly Atenveldt), so plenty of head and face thrusts, too. Only ever caused one injury that I know of, and that was basically a perfect storm of rotten luck.

DukeAvery · Post by **DukeAvery** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 1:47 pm

School's in. Estrella, 5x5.

Regards

Avery

Count Johnathan · Post by **Count Johnathan** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:59 pm

This is a stupid idea. In Atenveldt when we attempted this our hardest hitters and stoutest of men all gathered to discuss it after we tried 2" mandrake tips on fiber spears. The feelings were unanimous for both the givers and recievers of blows from them. Absolutely no. They hit far too hard. I use a 2" on my rattan spear which hits hard but flexes considerably when a stout blow is thrown. Fiber spears absolutely do not.

I'm not sure why the only officer who is supposed to be concerned with safety continues to make this game more dangerous for it's participants.

Very very stupid.

Angusm0628 · Post by **Angusm0628** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 3:06 pm

I'll be converting my spear down to the 2" tip.. But I'll also be dialing down my power a couple notches. As I said in my previous comment, Loved the handling aspects of a smaller spear head, but I'm also well aware of the level I need to shoot from.

Count Johnathan · Post by **Count Johnathan** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 3:08 pm

Seriously do people know why we don't use flails? Cause we f@$$@ tried them before. It sucked. I watched.

Anyone know why we stopped using thin shafted arrows for ten years? Cause we tried them before... it sucked....

Anyone want to take a guess about why we have been using 3" thrusties on fiberglass spears for the past 15 years instead of 2"?

Stunning. Absolutely stunning.

Jr · Post by Jr » Sat Jan 29, 2011 3:31 pm

im so pumped had a spear duel last gulf with a pair of them i love it. i had no problems with it at all

DeCalmont · Post by **DeCalmont** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 3:33 pm

Just ordered mine from Windrose!

Barnet · Post by **Barnet** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 4:21 pm

Can we get some whining of combar archery too, you forgot that.

Barnet

Jr · Post by Jr » Sat Jan 29, 2011 4:26 pm

lmfao

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 5:04 pm

Count Johnathan wrote:This is a stupid idea. In Atenveldt when we attempted this our hardest hitters and stoutest of men all gathered to discuss it after we tried 2" mandrake tips on fiber spears. The feelings were unanimous for both the givers and recievers of blows from them. Absolutely no. They hit far too hard. I use a 2" on my rattan spear which hits hard but flexes considerably when a stout blow is thrown. Fiber spears absolutely do not.

I'm not sure why the only officer who is supposed to be concerned with safety continues to make this game more dangerous for it's participants.

Very very stupid.

So, you're telling us that in Atenveldt you guys can't control your force levels?

Kaliban · Post by **Kaliban** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 5:13 pm

ON Flails I have used a peasants flail for more than 13 yrs and it is plenty safe .. (yes not in the sca) hits plenty hard and doesnt have a solid core .

2" spear hards on fiberglass shafts should be fine .. people will have to learn how to reuse them a bit but still no much difference in getting hit with one from a polearm or such .

Give it a try an see whats happens .. You hsould be on the feild with whats required when it comes ot your armour standards .

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 5:15 pm

Maybe now some people are Estrella will TONE DOWN THE FORCE NOW. You shouldn't have to launch a guy to get the guy to take it.

How about everyone dialing down the amp to seven? Tip will do the rest.

DukeAvery · Post by **DukeAvery** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 5:52 pm

Funny, Pennsic is the war where the medics never stop moving. Guess we're drinking alot of gatorade...

Estrella has an excellent safety record overall. We have control, we just like our game the way it was just fine. 2" tips just make my life easier.

Regards

Avery

Ulrich Halfdan Ulfsson · Sat Jan 29, 2011 6:06 pm

So, it's now okay to put a piece of hard rubber that I had bounced as too stiff as a butt spike on a 6' polearm on the end of 9' of fiberglass but I can't put a sliver of rattan on my daneaxe because it focuses the force of the blow too much? Just my ranting two cents.

DukeAvery · Post by **DukeAvery** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 6:06 pm

Ban the 'glass!

Regards

Avery

Amanda M · Post by **Amanda M** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:41 pm

People just need to be taught not to throw a 10 on first shot with a fiberglass spear. You don't have to be a huge buff guy to really ring someone's bell with one anyway.

Johann ColdIron · Post by **Johann ColdIron** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:02 pm

DukeAvery wrote:Ban the 'glass!

Regards

Avery

I'd be fine with that! I prefer my rattan one. 2" tip on a fiber spear is going to change armour standards...

Count Johnathan · Post by **Count Johnathan** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:05 pm

All I am saying is that the game was fine. Our rules have been working extremely well for us for years. We came up with those rules because we tested various things and found that 3" tips on fibers were best for safety, gameplay etc.

Are people just going to start falling over dead because 2 inch tips on glass spears are now "ok" ? No

Will more injuries happen because we have now reduced the safety features of our weaponry from a standard that has worked well for us for years? Probably.

Killkenny, the safety features of our weapon standards have allowed us to play hard for many years. Using weaponry with reduced safety features means we must play a toned down wussified version of the game or the volume of injuries will go up. So the choice is to let us continue to play hard with good equipment or give us more dangerous equipment and punish people for fighting the way they have been for decades if they injure someone doing what they have always done safely in the past.

It makes no sense to reduce the safety features of ANY of our weapons standards.

Sean Powell · Post by **Sean Powell** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:16 pm

Isabella E wrote:People just need to be taught not to throw a 10 on first shot with a fiberglass spear. You don't have to be a huge buff guy to really ring someone's bell with one anyway.

I don't fight spear in a melee as I'm a stick and board guy myself... but when the two lines connect I don't necessarily know if there will be time to throw a second shot if the first doesn't connect. Also, I'm frequently off balance or using my leg strength to push or maintain position. That means I throw 9.5+ out of 10 with whatever my arm can handle and hope that it works. I'm inclined to think that a lot of spear guys throw their shots in a press with the same logic.

I was once told by an Eastern Knight, one whom I respect, that it was impossible to throw excessive with a spear. Tip size and flex in the shaft meant anything above good pretty much went into bending the weapon. (Remember, this is a Pennsic kingdom where full calibration with spears in neck down, light to the face and the rest of the helm is an illegal target) I'm sure SOME people will need to temper their shots but when an opening shows that might not appear again I expect most people to launch at just slightly less then what would injure someone in SCA minimums... You might be 'dead' before you get to throw a follow up to someone asking to be hit harder. I'll presume that no one intentionally ramps above the injury to SCA minimums unless they KNOW their opponent is above minimums.

Sean

edit: their vs there. If I can spot the error there must be a dozen other grammar mistakes.

Baron Alejandro · Post by **Baron Alejandro** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 8:27 pm

Sean Powell wrote:Whee! That's going to make spear dueling a lot more deadly. That 33% reduction in diameter is a 56% reduction in surface area. Close up those gaps, stay out of range or get in close but DON'T stand at range and assume that the giant que-tips can't get you.

Sean

Sean Powell · Post by **Sean Powell** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:00 pm

Count Johnathan wrote:All I am saying is that the game was fine. Our rules have been working extremely well for us for years. We came up with those rules because we tested various things and found that 3" tips on fibers were best for safety, gameplay etc.

Your Excellency,

Somewhere in the dark recesses of my memory (which is not to be trusted) I was reading a lot of history of the SCA and related topics. The man who first introduced fiberglass spears was quoted as saying that 3" tips were included on the first spears because of the PERCEPTION of risk with the new shaft material. It was before my time and no I don't recall exactly where I read it but someone else may be able to cite the reference from this limited information.

A 3" diameter stack of foam has 225% of the cross section as a 2" diameter stack of foam. It therefore takes 225% of the force to get the same amount of flex (ie, a larger tip is stiffer) A stiffer tip flexes less when hitting hard targets like helms but does distribute force over a broader area for soft targets (ie, kidney belt and a tan). You can obviously change stiffness by changing foam type. The column buckling properties of the shaft have not changed and I frequently see spears bending during impact so the baseline 'good' impact is going to flex the shaft the same amount regardless of tip design.

We've had this discussion before. You have stated that you feel previous weapon testing included every necessary material, weapon design and safety requirement necessary and SCA combat is perfect the way it is. I have stated that EVERY rule should be revisited on a regular basis to see if material, technology or basic skills lets us improve the game (improve in my mind being still hard-hitting but more realistic and with fewer artificial constraints or limitations on technique). I don't know of any scientific testing that determined that 3" and not 2.5", 2" or 1.25" is the optimum tip diameter. If you can reference some I would like to review it. Lacking evidence I fail to see how a 2" tip on one weapon (glass spear) is inherently less safe then a 2" tip on another (7.5' rattan polearm).

With that said I have not seen any evidence supporting the decision either. I wish the marshal structure was more open on discussion of testing process and results. I think there is a lot of room for improvement of SCA combat that won't 'wussify' the sport aspects if its approached properly.

These are of course my opinions only,

Sean

Urdok · Post by **Urdok** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:05 pm

Sean Powell wrote:
Isabella E wrote:People just need to be taught not to throw a 10 on first shot with a fiberglass spear. You don't have to be a huge buff guy to really ring someone's bell with one anyway.
I was once told by an Eastern Knight, one whom I respect, that it was impossible to throw excessive with a spear. Tip size and flex in the shaft meant anything above good pretty much went into bending the weapon. (Remember, this is a Pennsic kingdom where full calibration with spears in neck down, light to the face and the rest of the helm is an illegal target) I'm sure SOME people will need to temper their shots but when an opening shows that might not appear again I expect most people to launch at just slightly less then what would injure someone in SCA minimums... You might be 'dead' before you get to throw a follow up to someone asking to be hit harder. I'll presume that no one intentionally ramps above the injury to SCA minimums unless they KNOW their opponent is above minimums.

Sean

I'd agree if we're talking rattan. I've had those things bend near double against my face. With fiberglass? It's absolutely possible to throw excessive shots with those poles. They have next to no flex to them.

Diglach Mac Cein · Post by **Diglach Mac Cein** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:25 pm

Most of the problems I've seen with ANY thrust tip is in how they are built and maintained. I probably bounce more thrust tips on inspection than any 3 other problems combined. Either they are so beat up and old that they fold over or bottom out, or they were "fixed" by taping it up stiffer, and eventually getting too stiff.

Build and maintain the weapon properly, use proper control, and if you get hit with a good shot, take it so the other guy doesn't feel he has to up the power.

.

Nissan Maxima · Post by **Nissan Maxima** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:14 pm

This is gonna be awesome.

losthelm · Post by **losthelm** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:36 pm

Its going to permit a lot more control over shot placement, and require a lot more control over force level. I would sugest people pratice a bit to improve control on the move and learn to break the shot when someone rushes the spear.

I look forward to other spear tip options besides Windrose.
Perhaps another splint option could also be looked at UHMW or HDPE should preform well to splint breakdown spears.

Euric Germanicus · Post by **Euric Germanicus** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:57 pm

I'm excited to use, and be killed by the new spears.

Anything that makes it look less like we are using giant Q-tips to stab each other with.

Count Johnathan · Post by **Count Johnathan** » Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:10 pm

That's just silly, an inch difference in size isn't going to magically change how the weapon works. If you are good it won't change your kill count. They are just going to hit harder.

So what's the goal of this reduction in size? Sounds to me like we are supposed to hit harder. We know they are going to hit harder and I didn't see anything from the SEM saying "use these but tone it down a bit" so screw it. Game on I guess.

Not like I am worried about getting hit hard anyway. When we discussed it here in Atenveldt, our decision to give negative feedback was based on our opponents safety. The lowest common denominator.

Good for me I guess. With all the guys getting blasted into oblivion with spears, nobody will be giving me a hard time about my mace.