Foam is Bad

[Apollonian]

Foam is Bad

Most of you going to call me nuts, but I've been waving this flag since I was KEM here in Atlantia. I have had a few converts, and some felt this way all on their lonesome. Still, I don't mind being the voice in the wilderness all by me onesie. Please hear me out and open your mind before you heat up the tar.

Thrusting tips are the source of many of our problems on the field. We could fight without them and train to be as safe as we are now without them. I say we should tape golf balls to the end of our spears and arrows and go with that. I do not understand how we can think we are safe striking someone as we do with a hard weapon edge, but we have a hard time being safe with "got-your-nose" using hard tips. We only need the foam tips now because of our history of using them and relying on them for the "safety" that we should have trained to in the early days.

Here are some of the cons many don't consider:

Absence of the Audible
Foam thrusties and edge padding remove from the acknowledgment process the audible information used with every other strike. The absence of the audible also let's people lie, or make many honest mistakes, about the face thrust, body or limb thrust, or the padded polearm strike, or any number of other things. Also, fluffy thrusts are harder to evaluate when the thrust is deliberately made less "feely" for lack of a better term.

Foam Fails Far Faster
Foam wears out over time and it's inspection is a time consuming factor for both fighters and the marshals. Rely on foam and people get f&*ked up when it fails, and it will fail. It would fail much more often than a golf ball, or a damned rock for that matter, providing us with so much more opportunity for f&*kage. If we didn't use foam and your tip falls completely off, NBD. You're just screwing up your equipment and not the other guy.

CA
Foam and the rubber replacements made for it continue to let helmet penetrations occur on a regular basis. Up until 18 months ago when Omarad banned retired KEMs from the SEM list, we continued to see many instances of helm penetration of both the head, nocks, and shafts reported to the SEM's office. This is due to the foam and rubber used in the blunts and APDs deforming and allowing the arrow in. That's some scary f&*king juju when we could have fixed it with a golf-ball when we started allowing CA. We have had this problem since the beginning, have known how to fix it, but just kept trying with what we knew would fail. That's scary liability right there.

Expense
Foam, tape, rubber, and everybody's time is expensive. Don't put a proper protective tip on your rattan spear and your spear fails faster. Use a golf ball and strapping tape and check your tape often. Don't worry whether or not you made it "humane" enough. You should be humane as opposed to your spear. Perhaps that's why we have the injuries that Avery decries. People are relying on inanimate objects to look out for their buddies instead of taking the responsibility themselves.

Foam Makes Us Lazy
Ever tried to get a real spear to thrust into a plate or a helmet? How many times did it skip of before you figured out how to make it stick? We nab each other all the time with thrusts that never would have stuck thanks to the foam, tape, and rubber. Combine that with the fact that we make demands of other weapons to work and be worked like their period counterparts and we fail the hypocrisy test...again.

The pros are the opposite of the others: you can hear it and there is less question, reduced failure rate and far less chance of catastrophic injury resulting from failure, safer CA, less expense, enhanced skill set and strategy evolution.

I dare you to try and thrust each other without foam on your sword and see what you think. It can be done safely and learned by almost anyone. We let fencers thrust at each other with nothing but a rabbit blunt and a piece of stiff window screen over their face.

Last, it isn't practical to change things all at once, or maybe even at all. I just know that this is a truth and we are missing, or have already missed the boat. Foam is bad.

Rodrigo Falcone

[Uneg]

I dare you to try and thrust each other without foam on your sword and see what you think.

I'm game to try it out. What should be done to the "end" of the sword - strapping, duct, and electrical tape, as per the rest of it?

[Murdock]

i'd play

[erloas]

So your suggestion is to just use golf balls on the ends for a fixed, hard end that isn't going to deform to be able to go through minimum required grill slots?
But you aren't suggesting any padding at all, correct?

Its a given that foam breaks down and takes more care to keep in good shape. However the main problem with the foam breaking down is the loss of protective given on a thrust. But unless I'm missing something, you are suggesting to completely remove any protective give anyway.

I get the point of the sound and hard hit rather then give for blow recognition, but that seems like a good reason to use a clacker instead.

So to me it sounds like you are suggesting that there should be no give, and everyone should re-learn how to thrust with "reasonable" force, ie much lighter then they do now because there is no give.

I can see slowly recalibrating everyone to throw lighter spear shots in normal conditions, but I question how well that would work in the middle of battle.

For 1 handed weapons, I could see a much different requirement for thrusting tips such as this, but not for 2 handed weapons.

To me the justification seems flawed. Foam will fail, and because of poor construction techniques many will have maybe 1/3 as much give as they should have; so for a solution you suggest we go with a system that won't fail but doesn't have any of the safety features of the first to begin with. Even an illegal, worn, failed foam tip will still have more give then a fully functional golf ball.
Unless of course I'm missing something you tried to say about the construction technique for use with the golf ball.

[Broadway]

I'd be comfortable thrusting without doing anything other than rounding the edges of the rattan at the tip a small bit.

[bkillian]

I would be very comfortable with it as well. Besides a golf ball and 2 rubber doorstops would make a very nice looking spear tip

[Aaron]

i'd play

Me too!

The foam unbalances the game forcing "safety" to make weapons "safe" and therefore requiring more force to get someone to notice it.

For example I can put an inhuman amount of power into a shot with a foam head on my pollaxes and get a "OK, maybe..." at best from my friend who I just pollaxed in the head or even armpit.

But when I put clackers on my rattan pollaxes the pollaxes started working like pollaxes. I didn't need to put a lot of power into shots. I could almost "fence" with them. The moved better. And I could throw nice, middle-of-the-road shots that would be accepted.

My friends heard the "clack" of the rattan and knew it was a hit and not a push.

I'd be in favor of removing the foam entirely.

A thrust then requires very little force to get in there good, as a thrust should be. Thrusts should be effective.

The foam we use now is unbalancing the game in the name of "safety" but actually making it unsafe.

I'd go for oversized bird blunts on arrows.

But take what I say with a grain of salt. I fight maybe once per year now due to graduate school and I don't expect that to change once I'm at my next duty station and "in charge" of something serious (and three kids at home, etc...).

But if you are salt sensitive like I am, please don't take that grain of salt.

[Nissan Maxima]

I'm in.

As a data point, I gave been thrust with swords that have lost their tip many times. On bare flesh it makes me say, "Oww".

I have accidently done the same to others. No one is dead.

[D. Sebastian]

Not to derail, but how about rubber chair feet for sword thrusties:



(washer keeps it from tearing)


and cruch feet for spears/poles:

[Aaron]

Not to derail, but how about rubber chair feet for sword thrusties:



(washer keeps it from tearing)


and cruch feet for spears/poles:

Looks good to me.

[olaf haraldson]

Yep. I'm in.

[Balin50]

So we should train not to hit hard???

[Aaron]

Train to hit well, with control. Hit to best your friend, not kill him. The foam just retards the shot so much that we use unrealistic moves to achieve realistic shots.

As an experiement my wife threw shots at me with the plastic tip end of the fiberglass spear and it felt OK. I could hear the shot as well as feel it. And man it was hard to evade! Just like a spear would be.

[Thorstenn]

Were you just wearing a kidney belt? That IS all that is required on the torso. Do that at a couple of wars and let me know how it works out for you. Charge the shield wall a few times to. It is easy to break bones.

Thor-

Train to hit well, with control. Hit to best your friend, not kill him. The foam just retards the shot so much that we use unrealistic moves to achieve realistic shots.

As an experiement my wife threw shots at me with the plastic tip end of the fiberglass spear and it felt OK. I could hear the shot as well as feel it. And man it was hard to evade! Just like a spear would be.

[Nissan Maxima]

So we should train not to hit hard???

Nope. We should wear armour and hit like thunderbolts.

[Aaron]

Were you just wearing a kidney belt? That IS all that is required on the torso. Do that at a couple of wars and let me know how it works out for you. Charge the shield wall a few times to. It is easy to break bones.

Thor-

Train to hit well, with control. Hit to best your friend, not kill him. The foam just retards the shot so much that we use unrealistic moves to achieve realistic shots.

As an experiement my wife threw shots at me with the plastic tip end of the fiberglass spear and it felt OK. I could hear the shot as well as feel it. And man it was hard to evade! Just like a spear would be.

Naw, I don't fight naked. Naked is for a different sort of game with a different sort of protection IMO.

But your point (oooo pun there) is taken. Perhaps the "no foam" should be reserved for the armoured and not the naked.

[Kilkenny]

So we should train not to hit hard???

I guess the answer to this depends on what the question really is

Should we train not to put substantial effort into throwing shots?

Should we train to land stout blows?

The answer to both of these questions can be yes and they are not at all mutually exclusive.

The point is, without the padding, one can land a stout thrust with less effort.
So, it's not asking your opponent to accept a lesser force blow. It is permitting you to deliver that forceful blow with less effort.

If the force received by the target remains X, does it really matter whether I don't need to put as much energy into throwing the blow?

[D. Sebastian]

I always liked the rubber feet because:


1) they're really inexpensive and hold up well.

2) foam adds the the goofy appearance of the weapons.

3) the only time I bleed in this game is when I get tip-cut from swords without thrusties on em.

4) they're really inexpensive and hold up well.

5) they come in 1.25", 1.5", 1.75", and 2".

6) they're really inexpensive and hold up well.


We'd prob have to loose the washer as "no metal in the striking surface".

[Aaron]

Hang on...when has a thrust broken a bone? Is there any documentation on this?

[erloas]

I think the point of the question was, is this a change worth changing and re-writing the armor requirements for?

I do think its more then a little crazy how little armor some people currently fight in, but it is technically legal. So if it is desired to change spear designs then I thing we would also have to go back and re-evaluation and modify the minimum armor requirements to take that into account.


The main personal issue with changes to spears is that it will make them that much more effective. And right now spears basically dictate and control every melee anyway. If spears get too much more effective then I don't see a place for anything else on the fields in melees. I could see things being more fun for spears but no fun at all for people who would rather use something else. A balance factor in favor of more people having fun using a wider range of weapons, because for me fun is still a very important part of this game.

I believe my armor is good enough to not have an issue with these sorts of changes with normally thrown shots. I don't think thats the case with everyone's armor though. And the margin of error for accidentally overthrown shots goes down drastically. Not throwing too hard when sides are lined up seems reasonable enough, but throw in pulse charges and regular charges where both sides are moving unexpectedly and the force of a hit can go up drastically without any change at all on the part of the person throwing the shot.

[Aaron]

Were you just wearing a kidney belt? That IS all that is required on the torso. Do that at a couple of wars and let me know how it works out for you. Charge the shield wall a few times to. It is easy to break bones.

Thor-

Is it any different from getting beaten up with the unpadded rattan swords? And the torso is a hard shot to get IMO. Legs, head and arms are more accessable.

[Duke Areus]

Hang on...when has a thrust broken a bone? Is there any documentation on this?

Cracked two ribs 2 months ago

[Aaron]

Ouch.

I haven't had a problem yet but (a) I probably fight 1/100 times less than you do and (b) even my light suit has reasonable protection and/or padding.

In some ways we all play in one game but play different games within the game.

[Duke Areus]

Were you just wearing a kidney belt? That IS all that is required on the torso. Do that at a couple of wars and let me know how it works out for you. Charge the shield wall a few times to. It is easy to break bones.

Thor-

Is it any different from getting beaten up with the unpadded rattan swords? And the torso is a hard shot to get IMO. Legs, head and arms are more accessable.

I have never been picked up and launched by a sword. I have been by a spear. on several occasions.

I can deliver a whole lot more power with a spear than a sword.

[Aaron]

Isn't that a case of excessive force? If you got hit with a good shot with a 2 inch thick thursting tip on a spear, would you take it? With the 3 inch tips I have a hard time feeling the shot on my breastplate and can see or feel it fine on my visor.

It would be nice to visit you someday and spar a bit. I think I would learn a lot. Seriously. The beer of choice would be on me.

[Count Johnathan]

I was fighting in a kings champion tourney about 14 years ago. I had two swords neither had thrusting tips. I was used to thrusting with my left hand and in one bout I threw a combo and accidentally thrust with my left hand.

My opponent was wearing a breastplate and a very large rolling thunder sheiken belt buckle. I shattered the buckle into about 10 pieces and doubled my opponent over in pain. It was an error on my part of course but I found out first hand what happens when unpadded swords are used for thrusting.

It wasn't good.

[Thorstenn]

I got 3 ribs broken and a bruised lung at Pennsic a few years ago from a spear shot. I was wearing the stainless lamalair from WMA over the area.
And I agree with his grace Phelan, I can deliver a lot of force with a thrust from a spear, and deliver fight ending force with a single sword if they are not fully armored.
The SCA makes rules for the unarmored/lightly armored masses.
These weapons in the hands of someone who trains regularly could work but we have a shitload of weekend or by monthly warriors out there who are taught to throw as hard as they can no matter what.

Thor-

[Diglach Mac Cein]

If people regularly checked their own equipment, and maintained it, foam tips wouldn't fail inspection.

If you can't recognize when you've been thrust on a regular enough basis that it is an issue, the problem is in your training or how often you practice, or your armor.

Foam is expensive, as is duct tape, rattan, cloth and/or paint to cover shields, wood for shields, etc. Almost every sport has 'consumables'.

The failed foam on the arrows in questions was for one specific type of arrow using one specific type of foam, from one specific source. Not exactly comparable.

On the issue of building a "humane" tip, weapon control is weapon control. If someone is hitting too hard, regardless if they are using foam, golf ball, or whatever, the problem is the fighter throwing the blow, not the weapon. If an unsafe weapon is on the field, it is the fault of the marshall who inspected and passed it, and the fighter who knowingly took it on the field.

On making us lazy or spears being hypocritical, they aren't anymore than stick polearms, knee fighting, round swords, indestrucable shields and weapon hafts, etc...

Rules should be written for the AVERAGE SCA fighter - what they wear, how often they fight, etc.

.

[Baron Eirik]

...but we have a shitload of weekend or by monthly warriors out there who are taught to throw as hard as they can no matter what.

Thor-

That is a problem that NO weapon rule can fix.

[Dietrich von Stroheim]

I dare you to try and thrust each other without foam on your sword and see what you think. It can be done safely and learned by almost anyone.

Greetings Sir Falcone,
Count me in. I have felt thrusting tips on single-handed weapons are unnecessary for a while, now.
If you ever have a backyard experimental practice with it or whatever, drop me a line, I'm only a few hours away.

Cheers,

Dietrich

[Kilkenny]

Hang on...when has a thrust broken a bone? Is there any documentation on this?

Aaron, the vast majority of injuries on the SCA combat field go unreported.
There may or may not be documentation. It is, however, a reasonable thing to consider anecdotal evidence when the person reporting is reporting their direct experience. Stories about a guy it happened to are another matter.

As a fer instance, there's no record of my breaking my thumb in a tournament at Pennsic 18. I assure you, I did get my thumb broken in a tournament at Pennsic 18

[Duke Areus]

Hang on...when has a thrust broken a bone? Is there any documentation on this?

Aaron, the vast majority of injuries on the SCA combat field go unreported.
There may or may not be documentation. It is, however, a reasonable thing to consider anecdotal evidence when the person reporting is reporting their direct experience. Stories about a guy it happened to are another matter.

As a fer instance, there's no record of my breaking my thumb in a tournament at Pennsic 18. I assure you, I did get my thumb broken in a tournament at Pennsic 18

Well put Your Grace.

I have been Knocked out twice, broken each thumb twice, broken my hand, broken two toes, broken or cracked 5 ribs, sprained my ankle once, and have twisted or sprained just about every joint in my body at least once.
I have never reported any of them because the usual way that gets reported is dealing with Chirurgeons.
My squires and most of the people I fight with have a standing rule, if I need a Chirurgeon, call 911. There are a select few like Doc (sir Aelfred) who is a trauma surgeon, and a short list of other real world EMT's and Corpsman, that are allowed to touch me, but other than that, I don't want them near me.

[Blaine de Navarre]

Hang on...when has a thrust broken a bone? Is there any documentation on this?

I have personally had ribs broken by thrusts on 3 occasions. All of them were more my own fault than the perso hitting me, and would not affect my willingness to fight with stiffer tips.

[Aaron]

I've been blessed to have never been injured. I pray that continues. So I beg a boon of your graces...please don't break me to break my record.

This debate will now be left to those who have more experience and knowledge (and time) than I. Debate nicely and I'll enjoy reading whatever is put down later.

With some dry humor,

-Aaron

[Seaan O'Hagan]

I like D's idea of the chair or crutch feet for spear heads, I hate trying to judge spear shots with the big pillows a lot spears have at the end of them. For single handers, I think it might be worth experimenting with rounded ends with a good amount of tape on them. I think I'll play with them at home and see.