"The Sword in Two Hands by Brian Price" review wan

[Vitus von Atzinger]

I AM an expert...trust me.

Something is deeply wrong with Brian Price.

[Marco-borromei]

I AM an expert...trust me.

Something is deeply wrong with Brian Price.

Perhaps you are, I don't know you.

In this case, however, you are a victim, as are many others.

You could be Price's doctor or therapist and your opinion would still be questionable because you are ALSO a victim of his business practices.

Perhaps we should leave clinical diagnosis to impartial, licensed medical professionals.

Does that sound better?

[Maeryk]

I AM an expert...trust me.

Something is deeply wrong with Brian Price.

Perhaps you are, I don't know you.

In this case, however, you are a victim, as are many others.

You could be Price's doctor or therapist and your opinion would still be questionable because you are ALSO a victim of his business practices.

Perhaps we should leave clinical diagnosis to impartial, licensed medical professionals.

Does that sound better?

Kay. How bout "he's bat shit crazy, narcissisitic, and pathological in his ability to fuck people, then make excuses for wiping his dick on the curtains".

I know, it's not a professional diagnosis.. but it sure seems like what's going on.

[Christian H. Tobler]

Folks,

I'm content to leave it at this: the man's done wrong, and to numerous people.

Why, how, and what psychological profile best describes this combination of actions is another matter. Whether it has a name as a disorder or falls into the category of "just plain evil" really doesn't matter much to me at the end of the day: justice still needs to be done.

Yours,

Christian

[Greg Mele]

All,

I don't think we need to wander down the road of clinical psychology any more than we need to further explore the land of "Socket Puppets Named Smith".

Lady Charlotte's post was relevant, to my mind, because she was answering a recurring question of "how can someone behave like this" and how do we all reconcile the "great guy" who will take someone into his home, help them when they're down or perform great acts of largesse with someone who willfully takes others property, withholds due money, and makes his associates sacrifice so he does not? I think her point is that, while this may seem incongruous to most, normal people, *there are* people who act like this. There *are* disorders that define that behavior. And for those who have such a disorder, *they cannot be reached*.

She didn't diagnose Brian, or claim to; she simply gave one possible example and related it to personal experience. Let's not read more into that than was intended.

For those of us with a lot of personal contact with Brian over the years the clinical reasons in the end are moot: the damage has been done, we've found that the tales that Christian and I tell can be echoed by Chris, Kes and a host of others, as can the simple fact that no matter what happens, what is presented to him as evidence, etc., Brian simply never accepts fault - there is always extenuating circumstances at work; someone else always is the cause of the problem, and he is always the victim.

I believe that Brian *believes* these things, no matter how incongruous the data points are. Consider his above claims that I tried to sabotage WMAW 2006, and that this somehow ties to not-paying royalties in 2007:

Firstly, for what conceivable reason would I 'sabotage' *my* event? I founded WMAW, I asked Brian to host the event, and my group was going to get it back the next year. What possible reason would I personally, or the CSG collectively want the event to fail?

Secondly, if this was so, why would I scramble to introduce Robert Holland to the instructors and ask them to support the event and the SSG?

Thirdly, if this was so, why would one of my senior-most students and two others attend the event?

But let us assume all of that is true. Here is the disconnect: WMAW 2006 was hosted by the SSG, not Chivalry Bookshelf. So even if I really was a mustachio-twirling villain, how does this have anything to do with CB not paying royalties to authors? What does Brian "feeling dismayed and disenchanted with all things swordy" have to do with not paying one's debts? How many of us decide to skip sending in our taxes to the IRS on April 15th every year because we feel "dismayed and disenchanted with all things government"?

Well, unless, of course, Brian has neglected to mention that he was co-mingling Schola, WMAW and Chivalry Bookshelf funds. I have no idea if that were the case, but even then, this would mean that somehow I "cost him money" by interfering with his defrauding his own school to pay his personal debts.

So either a) he cannot disassociate his personal feelings, or emotional responses from one element of a community to all others, b) he will always find a way to link some outside source to his personal failures or c) his explanation actually hides further malfeasance. Think about that.

There are logical fallacies that run through Brian's arguments that you at first let wash over you or you shrug off, but sooner or later, as you meet more and more people, you realize that it *can't* be everyone else. What is the clinical reason? I really don't care: I simply want it to stop. I want him to stop selling my intellectual property and that of others, I don't want to have any further ties to Brian or his ventures, and I don't want to keep hearing new iterations of the same story. Doesn't seem like too much to ask.

[Gaston de Clermont]

Greg, your assertion that Brian never accepts fault isn't accurate:

I have always said that chivalry is not a matter of acting with perfection (although I wish I were better at it), but is rather a question of making suitable amends after a wrong has occurred. Some of the things that happened in the business have been my fault, others have not. But I have been solely responsible for the communication which has not happened, and while the stresses accruing from a multitude of events corresponding at once in 2006 was great, that does not free me from responsibility and I will continue to pursue remedies.

Maybe he doesn't go far enough, and maybe he doesn't accept responsibility for the things you want him to, but "never" isn't right.

[Lady Charlotte]

Hello, Galleron,

In Chronique Issue #10, Brian price reprinted my copyrighted illustrations from Elizabeth Bennett's translation of King Rene's Tournament Book without attribution or my permission, on pages 37, 43, and 60. You can see the the illustrations here:

http://www.princeton.edu/~ezb/rene/renehome.html

In the same issue, he reprinted illustrations from Claude Blair's European Armour without attribution on pages 46 and 49

I'm so sorry that happened to you!!!

If the party's use doesn't constitute "fair use," then (assuming the statute of limitations hasn't run) the copyright owner is entitled to statutory damages of "not less than $750 or more than $30,000 as the court considers just," under 17 U.S.C. §504(c)(1), and, under 17 U.S.C. §504(c)(2):

"where the copyright owner sustains the burden of proving, and the court finds, that infringement was committed willfully, the court in its discretion may increase the award of statutory damages to a sum of not more than $150,000.

If a copyrighted work bears the owner's copyright notice, it's usually a slam-dunk to demonstrate that infringement was "committed willfully," and it doesn't matter whether the infringing use was commercial or not.

Lady Charlotte

[Lady Charlotte]

Hello, Luca,

But perhaps clinical diagnosis could be left to an expert.

Perhaps you missed my explicit, if humorous, disclaimer to be offering a clinical diagnosis:

...not that I'm a clinical psychologist or psychiatrist, nor do I play one on TV.

Had I been attempting offer Louis -- who had asked me a specific question, to which I was responding -- or anyone else reading this a "clinical diagnosis" of Mr. Price, I might have mentioned that I actually have a degree in psychology, which I'd obtained with the intention of becoming a clinical psychologist, a path I abandoned when a wise mentor advised me that in his experience, most psychologists who enter the profession with the goal of ultimately seeking a "cure" for a family member with an Axis II personality disorder end up compromising their own mental health eventually. I saw the wisdom of that insight and chose to pursue other paths.

However, I specifically hadn't mentioned that credential in my reply to Louis because I did not want anyone to be confused that I was offering Louis anything other than my own non-professional opinion, albeit a fairly well-informed one.

So, do you have similar objections to the positively promiscuous offers of "legal advice" on this thread by non-lawyers?

Lady Charlotte

[Greg Mele]

Actually, Gaston, it is.

If you pay careful attention to Brian's style, he never simply says "I failed". What he does is he cherry picks an example, and the proceeds to give a laundry list of reasons why that thing happened.

Look at his long post: in that thread he begins by acknowledging that he has not paid royalties. Great! Only, he then goes on to give a long list of reasons as to why that really was not his fault; there was nothing he could have done. Ie: what this really means is, "I have no way to deny I have not paid my authors, but I shouldn't be faulted for that."

But I have been solely responsible for the communication which has not happened, and while the stresses accruing from a multitude of events corresponding at once in 2006 was great, that does not free me from responsibility and I will continue to pursue remedies.

This sounds so reasonable, doesn't it? But what does it mean? What failures of communication, *exactly*? After all, Brian still maintains that he was the victim of a hatchet-job in 2006 re: WMAW. You will note that I mentioned by student David Peck had written him over 22 emails. I left out the website scripting and database management done by Roger Siggs, or the emails from Nicole Allen. Then there were the DOZENS of unanswered emails over a period of months from instructors. Remember, that was why I contacted Brian; he was not responding to anyone. And that was all I did - I cornered him and told him that he had not lived up to any of the target dates, had not replied to any emails, was not providing answers, and the only answer he had provided - "wait until after Pennsic" - was not tenable for an international event.

Based on the above quote, he should now be at peace with this being his fault, right? Let's look at Mr. Price's response again:

5) Finally, during 2006, Mr. Mele and other members of the Chicago Swordplay Guild refused to participate in our joint WMAW/Schola Saint George Symposium held here in DFW. There was a great deal of ugliness written and posted about the organization of the event and predictions of a dire failure, which highlighted the very ugliest side of WMA politics. To be completely frank, this assault on the event given the many hours of coordination, production and the thousands of dollars fronted for it really threw me for a mental loop, and I resolved at that time to transition out of the WMA and possibly out of "sword stuff" altogether. This noise extended far beyond the event itself and I have to believe also contributed to slowing sales of books.

In other words, he instead accuses me of defaming himself and the event, and that this somehow "contributed to slowing sales of books", which is patently absurd.

The 'failures of communication are my fault' may *still* seem reasonable to some, until we remind everyone what we are talking about, to whit:

1. Brian failed to send his authors not only their royalty statements, but their sales accounting, which he was contractually obligated to do, twice per year.

2. Brian failed to send this information after repeated phone calls and emails.

3. Brian failed to send his authors additional copies of their own books - as he was contractually obligated to do- despite repeated emails and calls.

4. Brian failed to notify two of his authors that he had sold the German language rights to their books - as he was contractually obligated to do- and has just now revealed that he did so in an arrangement that itself violated Chivalry Bookshelf's contract.

5. Brian failed to notify his distributors, both in the US (Midpoint) and the UK (Greenhill) of title availability, reprints, etc, (say it with me now) - as he was contractually obligated to do; which was a large part of what actually damaged repeat sales, contrary to his claims to the contrary. How do I know? Because I was there and spoke directly to Midpoint and Michael Leventhal.

I have only touched on the CB issues in these five points. But notice that he mentions none of these things in his "acknowledgment" of responsibility. And the issues that he does mention, he does so to show, at length, why they were not his fault, just as he conveniently ignores the issues of what really happened with WMAW 2006, and instead writes a vague, unsubstantiated grievance with myself and my school.

This is not an "acknowledgment of responsibility", Gaston, it is use of a logical fallacy called the "appeal to sympathy", and Brian uses it well. I know - he used it on me on and off for six years. It is not an honest acknowledgment of fault; it is a diversion. This is typical of Axis 2 disorders; they do not take blame directly, because they *cannot*; to do so brings the entire house of cards that is their carefully constructed self-image crashing down.

Whether Brian himself has such a disorder or not, I have no idea. Buthe uses the same defensive tactics as a classic, toxic narcissist - he projects the fault on others, he accuses people of conspiracy, he rationalizes his actions and he offers placating words when directly confronted that sound conciliatory, until you analyze them and realize that they don't actually apply to any specific action. Much like a politician's stump speech, they hit certain emotional notes, but have no specifics.

Gaston, I *get* it: you really, really, *really* want to find some way to at least partially defend Brian. Been there, done that - FOR YEARS. So has Christian, so has Vitus, so has Talbot. Sounds like so has Chris Gilman. This is a man who stayed in my home, I in his, and launched his press with my help and using my contacts in the WMA community to establish an early roster of authors. We took business trips together, planned events together, ran tournaments together. Like Talbot, I have some amazing memories of staying up way too late, laughing until my sides split, and I remember Brian's encouragement while I was recovering from my spinal cord injury.

But toddlers are incredibly fun to watch and play with, too. Yet as St Paul wrote, When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. The problem is, when it comes to doing what is right and paying one's debts, even to their own detriment, Brian has not. As he told me directly, he "will not jeopardize my family's standard of living for anyone". So be it - but then he should have a 9-5 job and not be a business owner. Owning a business is scary, and you often have to pay everyone else and then wonder where the money for your bills is coming from. It is is the work for grown men and women, not toddlers.

[Louis de Leon]

She didn't diagnose Brian, or claim to; she simply gave one possible example and related it to personal experience. Let's not read more into that than was intended.

Exactly. Just thinking out loud, not offering a diagnosis. Not a doctor, don't play one on tv, didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

And two things have come from that. First, I've been thoroughly schooled on NPD and I find I'm agreeing with her thoughts on the matter. I'm even looking at the two nutzos I know personally in a different light. If you're reading this Lady Charlotte, thank you.

Second, we got to watch her debate another point, which is always filled with epic goodness. I'll admit part of the reason for my post was to watch her have another go at something. I'm almost for petitioning JT for another forum: Ask A Research Librarian. Giving her and Mord admin rights and seeing what happens. It's just too damn awesome.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Hello, Galleron,

In Chronique Issue #10, Brian price reprinted my copyrighted illustrations from Elizabeth Bennett's translation of King Rene's Tournament Book without attribution or my permission, on pages 37, 43, and 60. You can see the the illustrations here:

http://www.princeton.edu/~ezb/rene/renehome.html

In the same issue, he reprinted illustrations from Claude Blair's European Armour without attribution on pages 46 and 49

I'm so sorry that happened to you!!!

If the party's use doesn't constitute "fair use," then (assuming the statute of limitations hasn't run) the copyright owner is entitled to statutory damages of "not less than $750 or more than $30,000 as the court considers just," under 17 U.S.C. §504(c)(1), and, under 17 U.S.C. §504(c)(2):

"where the copyright owner sustains the burden of proving, and the court finds, that infringement was committed willfully, the court in its discretion may increase the award of statutory damages to a sum of not more than $150,000.

If a copyrighted work bears the owner's copyright notice, it's usually a slam-dunk to demonstrate that infringement was "committed willfully," and it doesn't matter whether the infringing use was commercial or not.

Lady Charlotte

I'm sure that the fact that he willfully completely plagiarized an entire book claiming it as his own work would also have bearing on the determination on whether a subsequent infringement of another copyright was willful.

I've driven by Holiday Inns.

[Lady Charlotte]

Hello, Gaston,

Greg, your assertion that Brian never accepts fault isn't accurate:

I have always said that chivalry is not a matter of acting with perfection (although I wish I were better at it), but is rather a question of making suitable amends after a wrong has occurred. Some of the things that happened in the business have been my fault, others have not. But I have been solely responsible for the communication which has not happened, and while the stresses accruing from a multitude of events corresponding at once in 2006 was great, that does not free me from responsibility and I will continue to pursue remedies.

Maybe he doesn't go far enough, and maybe he doesn't accept responsibility for the things you want him to, but "never" isn't right.

He "talks the talk" quite well, as all narcissists do, but they almost never "walk the walk" unless and until forced, which it seems has occurred yet again, here. Brian had "offered" in that February 20th post, above:

With Talbot, Vitus, or any other individual who feels personally wronged, I warmly invite you to contact me directly and we'll work out a solution.

And had claimed, as you noted:

But I have been solely responsible for the communication which has not happened, and while the stresses accruing from a multitude of events corresponding at once in 2006 was great, that does not free me from responsibility and I will continue to pursue remedies.

And what's happened since?

Leo Medii posted, also on the 20th:

Hello Brian, since you have seen this thread, could you contact me about my gauntlet order I placed quite a long time ago?

Thanks for your time.

And again on February 22nd (right after "Dave Smith's" post):

I was just hoping for some info on an order I gave him a deposit on of 25% in 1994. I did not realize that this was rude, or in bad form. I only asked because Brain had come here to post.

And yet again on February 24th (in response to Talbot's post of his initial email to Brian):

Hi Talbot, can you keep us informed how this turns out? I'd like to know if I have a chance of seeing my deposit or some gauntlets at some point.
Thanks!

And yet again on March 2nd:

I would just like a yes, or no if he intended to make my gauntlets or will.

And yet again on March 3rd:

All I know is I'm glad other people will be spared my loss now.

In the meanwhile, on February 23rd, Talbot had emailed Brian with a proposal, as "warmly invited":

Brian,
In the “Sword in Two Hands” thread on the Armour Archive, you stated, "Regarding your armour bits, yes, I do acknowledge the debt for these." and later suggested, "With Talbot, Vitus, or any other individual who feels personally wronged, I warmly invite you to contact me directly and we'll work out a solution." I am taking you up on this.

As far as I am concerned the other matters are in the past. I have stated my feelings about them and you have responded. In that matter I am done. However, there is the matter of the outstanding armour pieces. If you wish to make good on this I would welcome it. I fully understand that while completing your doctorate you do not have time to get into the shop to make these items for me. I certainly would not have had time while completing mine. I would be glad to accept other items you have in stock in compensation so we can put this matter to rest. We would have to determine a mutually agreeable fair market value for the items owed.

One reasonable thing you could do would be to provide me with copies of books by Christian Tobler, Dr. Forgeng, Guy Windsor or other authors who are owed royalties. I could then pass them on to these authors thereby allowing them to sell them personally and receive some measure of compensation for their work. This would not in any way relieve you of debts owed to them but it would make me feel as if I am helping out in some small way. I am open to other offers if you prefer. I await your reply.

Talbot reported back on March 2nd:

Well, he responded about 4 hours after I wrote him on February 23rd. He proposed a figure of $1500 as what he owed me and apologized for any hurt he may have caused me while rationalizing what happened between us. He then went on to explain why others were wrong to expect compensation from him and represented himself as the wronged party.

I replied to him the next day (Feb 24th.) Here was my response.

Brian,

I honestly know very little of the bad blood between you, Greg, Nicole and Christian. I had previously heard bits and pieces but I was not interested and had little desire to know. Since they knew that you and I were friends they did not regale me with stories of the split and I was content with that.

My primary difficulty with you stems from the end of our business arrangements. You were unreliable and IMPOSSIBLE to contact. You ignored dozens of phone calls and emails. I know it is hard when you feel your back is up against a wall and the easiest path is to ignore it. This never works. It just alienates people. It changed my opinion of you from someone who was overwhelmed and doing the best he could to someone who was knowingly being dishonest. I was hurt and offended that you could do this to someone with whom you professed to be friends. Whatever trust I had for you was gone. Nevertheless, I have remained quiet about this and have never spoken or written about it publicly. When I read the thread I discovered that this has constituted a pattern of behavior with many other people. I was shocked and was moved to publicly come out and share my experiences with others.

You have an opportunity here. No path is set in stone. Find a way to make amends with those you have wronged. I'm sure you believe you have not intentionally wronged others but I challenge you to take a good hard look in the mirror. If this many people are feeling wronged by you then you have done wrong. I work with students who cannot or will not take responsibility for their actions. Until they learn to accept the fact that their actions have hurt others (intentionally or not) they will never be able to move forward. You are in the identical position right now. Until you accept that your behavior has harmed others you will not be able to move on and grow. You are about to embark on a new phase in your life. You will soon be Dr. Price. This can be a wonderful thing. However, storm clouds are gathering and they are heading in your direction. You can still make this right. There are people out there to whom you owe things and who have been wronged. Make it right. Sell some things and pay off the royalties. Consider it an act of penance. Publicly admit what wrong you did and seek to make it right.

Here is the first step.

If you were proposing a monetary payment I would accept the $1500 amount you had proposed. However, I was actually thinking that the figure should be closer to $2000 in merchandise. Either way cash or merchandise is fine with me. I am concerned, based on your track record, that your offer may prove to be empty. Please prove me wrong. Then take that good hard look in the mirror. I await your response.

Doug

It is now March 2nd and a week has passed since the contact. I have not heard anything since. I am guessing I will not see any money or merchandise. Perhaps he will surprise us all.

And also on March 2nd...

Given that his first response came mere hours after the initial email and the fact that the dozens of unanswered emails and phone calls is the exact pattern of behavior that prompted the disolution of our business relationship (as stated in my letter to Brian above) I beleive that a week is sufficient time to begin to despair of ever getting a response. Perhaps I am wrong but I feel I have been here before. I hope I am wrong.

Should he reply I will gladly notify this board.

But Talbot is still waiting, right?

As is Leo Medii, right?

So please give us a single example of how Mr. Price has done anything more than "talk the talk" without "walking the walk" since he posted here!

Mr. Wieland, Mr. Hempel, have either of you yet achieved your desired "solution" with Mr. Price?

Has "any other individual [reading this] who [felt] personally wronged" managed to "work out a solution" with Mr. Price since he "warmly invite[d them] to contact [him] directly" on the 20th?

Other than a new sock puppet?

Lady Charlotte

[Baron Alcyoneus]

"Peace in our Time".

Delay, let it pass, hope people forget or give up.

Business as usual, can recommence, with luck!

[Aaron]

So most of us think that the Price is not right?

[Vitus von Atzinger]

Don't push it. The Elmer Fudd quote cannot be topped, anyway.

[Aaron]

Yeah, I should know when to leave the stage. Thank you for the compliment.

My wife thinks I'm funny, but she also says "Looks aren't everything."

I would like to know if the $40 I spent on the two patches for St. Sever went to his children and wife.

http://revival.us/michaelplottsmichaels ... patch.aspx

But they are wonderful patches and I'll have them sewn on my tabards eventually.

-Aaron

[Galleron]

As this has become a very long thread, (401 posts as of now) I've put up a short summary here:

http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.co ... valry.html

Sunlight is the best disinfectant!

[Christian H. Tobler]

Well done Galleron!

Thank you,

Christian

[Galleron]

It occurred to me that in the absence of sales reports, Amazon bestseller rankings are one way to test Brian's claim that the books are selling poorly.

Amazon has said that it's a combination of recent sales and all-time sales, with recent sales weighted more heavily, so you'd need to take that into account when making comparisons.

[Christian H. Tobler]

Hi Galleron,

The fact that some books have gone through multiple printings also calls into question Brian's claims.

We know that "Fighting with the German Longsword" has been reprinted, and certainly "Secrets of German Medieval Swordsmanship" has been reprinted at least twice; I know of it being reprinted earlier, and it now has yet again a different cover, as I detailed very early in this thread.

Best,

CHT

[Talbot]

But Talbot is still waiting, right?

No word yet...March 5th and counting

[Galleron]

As this has become a very long thread, (401 posts as of now) I've put up a short summary here:

http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.co ... valry.html

Sunlight is the best disinfectant!

320 page views and counting.

[Talbot]

and another thirty-seven thousand (+) here!

[Vitus von Atzinger]

As this has become a very long thread, (401 posts as of now) I've put up a short summary here:

http://willscommonplacebook.blogspot.co ... valry.html

Sunlight is the best disinfectant!

320 page views and counting.

I posted it to one of my Facebook pages.

[Adrielle Kerrec]

So has the Crown of the Kingdom he resides in considered banishing him?

[Mike F]

Guys, it's one thing to discuss issues which need to be addressed. Personal speculation about his state of mind or the like is bordering on a personal attack. Ask yourself if this is helpful or not.

[Morgan]

So has the Crown of the Kingdom he resides in considered banishing him?

I know you meant no harm with this question, and please don't take my answer as any kind of rebuke. But I want to put it into context.

Brian has lived in Texas for something like 8ish years now. He's probably been to more foreign events in that time than events in Ansteorra. He hasn't been particularly active as an "Ansteorran Knight".

The Crown of Ansteorra has been aware of this thread and these allegations for TWO DAYS.

Previous crowns of other kingdoms and chiv circles knew about this stuff for years.

I do not speak for the Crown of Ansteorra. I'm just a member of the Chivalry of Ansteorra, and am only offering what I consider my perspective.

[Adrielle Kerrec]

No offence taken. I am simply suggesting it might want to be something the crown looks into and consider. I know first hand that a banishment is not something to be undertaken or done without serious consideration and investigation.


cheers

[Galleron]

A commenter on my blog tells me that the following appeara on the back cover of his copy of Ramon Lull's Book of knighthood and the anonymous Ordene de Chevalerie:

"As a bonus, the editors have included the anonymous "Ordene de Chevalerie," translated into English by William Morris."

Google books includes that wording in its description of the 2003 edition, but not earlier editions.

Anyone have a pre-2003 copy that can tell me if it was present on earlier editions?

[Greg Mele]

Galleron,

I just checked the paperback edition and it does appear there, on the back cover, not in the frontispiece or in the introduction.

I have the first edition hardback as well, but without a dust-jacket. I can only say that in the book itself there is no mention of Morris, but there *is* a statement that the Ordene is presented "for the first time in English".

The early editions of Lull were very low print runs, so Brian may have corrected this at some point. I can't speak to this more than that, since the allegations by the U or Iowa was the first I ever knew of this.

I would also add that one should compare Morris' version of Lull with Brian's "re-Englished" Lull. I haven't made an extremely close examination of this, just a few pages, but those certainly suggested that Brian was not working from Caxton, but transcribing Morris. Again, would would need a more thorough comparison.

Best,

Greg

[FrauHirsch]

Mostly this ends up being a mundane matter because it involves real mundane law, businesses and contracts.

For those in the SCA, why has this gone on so long? Clearly there are some ethics issues that are of huge concern.

Like any issue, a number of complaints need to be sent in writing to various entities for them to take action. This either may not have occurred or the complaints may have gone to the wrong entities within the bureaucracy that is the SCA.

Brian is a member of the Order of the Laurel and the Order of the Chivalry, but actually the SCA does not provide mechanisms to allow those entities to take action beyond some limited sanctions, some finger shaking, and peer pressure. If that happened in the past, it would not be public knowledge, and would have been dealt with privately by the local orders. These Orders within a hobby club have zero ability to affect someone's mundane business, as it should be.

The way the SCA is set up and its associated culture can allow someone to cause quite a bit of harm before anything is "done". Much of that is because people tend not to write things down until suddenly they find themselves a part of a large group of people with complaints.

While complaint to the Orders are well and good, the Kingdom Seneschal of Ansteorra would need to be contacted with a formal complaint and call for a court of Chivalry under the SCA guidelines for complaints. If a complaint goes just to the Orders, it will likely not move forward to the formal complaint resolution process. I would suggest contacting the Ansteorran Seneschal directly to find out what the appropriate process for complaints in that Kingdom are. Some kingdoms have laws which regulate which exact steps need to happen.

The BoD could also be contacted because Brian is well-known outside the SCA to be an SCA Knight and that is used to marketing his business. This might be determined to cause some negative publicity for the the SCA around the world and therefore be raised to that level more quickly. Again, I'd recommend contacting someone on the BoD to find out the appropriate process.

seneschal@ansteorra.org (Gwyneth Blackrose)

[Galleron]

Galleron,

I just checked the paperback edition and it does appear there, on the back cover, not in the frontispiece or in the introduction.

I have the first edition hardback as well, but without a dust-jacket. I can only say that in the book itself there is no mention of Morris, but there *is* a statement that the Ordene is presented "for the first time in English".

The early editions of Lull were very low print runs, so Brian may have corrected this at some point. I can't speak to this more than that, since the allegations by the U or Iowa was the first I ever knew of this.

I would also add that one should compare Morris' version of Lull with Brian's "re-Englished" Lull. I haven't made an extremely close examination of this, just a few pages, but those certainly suggested that Brian was not working from Caxton, but transcribing Morris. Again, would would need a more thorough comparison.

Best,

Greg

What's the publication date of the first edition hardback and of your paperback? And I assume the "first time in English" is not in the paperback edition,

[SyrRhys]

What's the publication date of the first edition hardback and of your paperback? And I assume the "first time in English" is not in the paperback edition,

Hi G.,

I have the hardcover edition of this book, and I think I got it right after it came out. The publication date is listed as 2001. The back cover of the dust jacket says:
"As a bonus, the editors have included the 12th century anonymous "Ordene de Chivalerie," also translated into English by William Morris."

[Adrielle Kerrec]

With respect to sanctions within the SCA there are options available. Although they are no substitue for modern era action they could in this situation serve to limit future victims if one can no longer use ones titles, attend events including major wars. I am not advocating one way or the other in this instance but the options do exist.

I would also say as a Peer do we not have an obligation to the SCA to help protect the members as we are able and to advise our Crown in situations where appropriate?

An Order (Laurel, Pelican, Chivalry) can write the Crown and I believe the Board directly and seek action including that persons awards of rank be removed and action be taken. It is rare but there have been instances when the majority of an Order within a Kingdom has submitted a petition that a person's actions be investigated and action taken.

Further if the Crown should choose to impose a sanction they have a variety of opptions from simply removing any privileges of rank to, banishment from the Realm, Exile from the Realm or an Absolute Banishment.

It is the BoD's position to investigate such actions when taken and if asked and/or if appropriate to take the further step of revoking and denying one's membership.

In any event if such actions were to be taken I would strongly encourage that all grievances be fully documented with statements and as much 'evidence' as possible and that complete package be compiled with the appropriate contact information as the Crown, and if it reaches that point, the Board, might require to conduct an investigation.

Just food for thought. [/img]

[Christian H. Tobler]

As Hugh notes, the 2001 dust jacket does list Morris.

The book's contents however do not, at least as far as I can tell. I'm not sure what edition the U of I had, and if they had the dust jacket, should that turn out to be the first printing.

I won't - or rather, can't - speak to any issues concerning the Lull translation. I haven't undertaken any comparison there.

Cheers,

Christian