Back-up dagger

Adriano · Post by **Adriano** » Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:04 pm

Today I packed up my armour and weapons for Gulf Wars. Six-foot greatsword; pair of 49-inch bastard swords (I made a second in case somebody wants a matched duel); two-handed mace (just for S&G).

If my 50-year-old body holds up, the six-footer will probably be my main weapon. It's a good, versatile weapon, with a ricasso that lets me use it like a short polearm. But when I was packing the truck, I suddenly had a vision: me using the greatsword against a fighter with a poll-axe; our weapons locked together, above our heads -- and me pulling a dagger and stabbing my worthy opponent and good friend (for indeed, I feel a deep affection for all those I meet face-to-face in our melees) right in the ol' bargrill.

So I went out to the porch, and, lo and behold, there was an 18-inch length of rattan, just sittin' there. So in about ten minutes I made it into a dagger. Righteous. I should be able to stick it in my belt without it getting in the way.

The knife, in some form, is among the earliest tools/weapons/phallic symbols created by preliterate hominids, and remains one of the most all-around useful items a fellow can have about him. In all the illustrations I've seen of fully-accoutred medieval warriors, no matter what their primary weapon is, they usually have a dagger as well.

And, in many an account of medieval combat -- whether blood feud, chivalric deed of arms, exercise of crusading zeal (as the Lord said, Love thy neighbor, unless he's Turkish, in which case, kill the bastard!), bold stand by municipal militia, etc. -- it often comes down to close-in grappling and the quick use of a handy dagger.

Question: has anybody here found this useful in SCA combat? (That is, having a dagger handy as a back-up weapon?)

Trevor · Post by **Trevor** » Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:11 pm

Hell yeah! And when you have occasion to pull it, if you listen closely, you can hear angels singing...

Leo Medii · Post by **Leo Medii** » Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:19 pm

Question: has anybody here found this useful in SCA combat? (That is, having a dagger handy as a back-up weapon?)

I never take the field without one.

Uneg · Post by **Uneg** » Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:29 pm

I find a backup dagger to be extremely useful.

Blackoak · Post by **Blackoak** » Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:32 pm

Same here, I don't leave home without it.

Uric

Hedinn · Post by **Hedinn** » Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:39 am

I use mine all the time.

I loan it out too, sometimes on purpose and sometimes not so much.

My buddy lost his spear one pennsic, I handed him my dagger and told him
"Now you're not unarmed, go get it back."

Payn · Post by **Payn** » Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:37 am

I have a fishbat that I call the MFB. 2.5 inch rattan planed down to 1 and a quarter. Around 18 inches long. I love it.

Hrolfr · Post by **Hrolfr** » Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:29 am

If I am armored on the list, I have one.

Afterall, a good Norseman ALWAYS carries a seax. :twisted:

olaf haraldson · Post by **olaf haraldson** » Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:34 am

Always. The only time I do not have it on is if a tournament specifically disallows backups. Also... I practice with it. Just practice drawing and firing. If you've got a backup on you can't draw without thinking or fumbling... it's useless.

Adriano · Post by **Adriano** » Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:01 am

Thanks for the replies!

Good point, Olaf -- I'll have to practice drawing the dagger with my gauntlets on.

Count Johnathan · Post by **Count Johnathan** » Sun Mar 13, 2011 12:18 pm

Few in Atenveldt take the field using a 2 handed weapon and NO backup. A dagger is nearly standard equipment here.

I actually made a 32" sword to carry as a backup this year at Estrella due to the dread lords views about who might be caught dead on the field without a sword. I did practice drawing it with my gauntlets on and I was glad I did. The first battle I entered I had a man pass my main weapons useful reach so I drew my sword and carved the man down. It was awesome! :wink:

Kennimathor · Post by **Kennimathor** » Sun Mar 13, 2011 12:20 pm

Whenever I use a two handed weapon, I always have my dagger. I cannot count the times I have had the pleasure of stabbing someone in the face who was not expecting it.

In fact, this past Pennsic I fought dagger and shield during the castle breakout scenario, beacuse during the presses I knew there was going to be little room to swing. I had tremendous fun and found the dagger to be very, very effective!

Trevor · Post by **Trevor** » Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:38 pm

Please DO take the time to make a sheath/belt for it! Makes a big difference in being able to draw it out in time to be Useful.

bjorn2bwild · Post by **bjorn2bwild** » Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:04 pm

Finally got around to making scabbards for these, just in time for Gulf Wars.

The longer one is made out of some freakishly dense rattan I picked up at Estrella many years ago. Hits like a freight train.

The seax is mostly there because, hey, you gotta have a seax.

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twoswords · Post by **twoswords** » Sun Mar 13, 2011 3:17 pm

If I have the possibility, I bring a backup sword as well as a dagger onto the field. I have yet to meet an opponent who did not think it was awesome to try to run down a spearman, only to be killed by a dagger-thrust.

Dietrich von Stroheim · Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:28 pm

Adriano, you are on the right path. Having a backup weapon can lead to a lot of really fun memories.

Much of the time, mine doesn't get used. But it has saved my ass many a time, and it is an AWESOME experience when the dude with the shield runs you down, sets up for a deep wrap, and...

...stares down the length of your dagger that you just fed him!

I'll be at GW with greatsword and longsword if you'd like to cross blades!

Corby de la Flamme · Post by **Corby de la Flamme** » Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:46 pm

I don't think I have ever, in the midst of an engagement with an opponent, felt pulling a dagger was wise, nor had one used on me successfully.

During the time an opponent has let go of his main weapon to grab the dagger, I have always been able to do violent things to him, and feel quite the same thing would happen to me as I tried to draw mine.

Now, that doesn't mean that a dagger can't be handy if you have a moment to grab it, free of risk of getting whacked in the head.

Had an awesome dagger duel in the woods at Pennsic in 2009 with some Westie knight after losing my right arm spear dueling.

Corby de la Flamme · Post by **Corby de la Flamme** » Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:48 pm

on the other hand, I may not be the guy for Adriano to ask, as I've never ever understood why someone would prefer a greatsword to a polearm in melee.

Ewan · Post by **Ewan** » Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:16 pm

Used mine this weekend. I'm not very good with my glaive yet so one of my most successul strategies is to allow my opponent to close, foul and check his weapon and draw the dagger, then stabby stabby. Also ran down a spearman with the sole intent of stabbing him in the face. loved it.

Tiberius Nautius · Post by **Tiberius Nautius** » Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:30 pm

I can't even count the number of times my Pugio's been pulled since I made it last year. I never take the field without it on, unless backups are not allowed.

olaf haraldson · Post by **olaf haraldson** » Sun Mar 13, 2011 7:10 pm

Couple of years ago at Pennsic, I heard a voice behind me on the bridge cry "I have no weapon!"
Without thinking, I drew the seax, turned, and slapped the handle into the hand... of the King of Drachenwald. He looked at it, and said "I lost my polearm." I replied "I'll go get you a new one."
I took my axe into a pile of people, and when I came back out, I had a polearm, which I handed to him. He gave me back the seax, informing me he'd killed one guy with it in the meantime. I have now named my seax "Kingsaver". (I'm sure He'd have been fine without it... He is the King after all... but it made the seax feel important.) :lol:

Olaf

Kennimathor wrote:
In fact, this past Pennsic I fought dagger and shield during the castle breakout scenario, beacuse during the presses I knew there was going to be little room to swing. I had tremendous fun and found the dagger to be very, very effective!

Kennimathor · Post by **Kennimathor** » Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:53 pm

I can think of a lot of times when drawing a dagger was useful. When I fight spear and a pole rushes up to me and thinks they have an easy target, (if running away is not practical) I often try to bind them up a little, grab the haft of their weapon, and then stab them with my dagger. Certainly doesn't work everytime, (and I woudln't try it against a greatsword,) but it has worked plenty against polearms; and it is better than standing there and letting them kill me. When it does work, I just hope I didn't drop my spear to far way, so I'm not just standing in the middle of a melee with only a dagger!

Corby de la Flamme wrote:I don't think I have ever, in the midst of an engagement with an opponent, felt pulling a dagger was wise, nor had one used on me successfully.

During the time an opponent has let go of his main weapon to grab the dagger, I have always been able to do violent things to him, and feel quite the same thing would happen to me as I tried to draw mine.

Adriano · Post by **Adriano** » Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:53 pm

Dietrich von Stroheim wrote:I'll be at GW with greatsword and longsword if you'd like to cross blades!

Thanks, Dietrich! It'd be an honor. (Just a matter of how much pick-up fighting my aging body will allow.)

B. Amos · Post by **B. Amos** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:43 am

I have had some epic moments with my backup sword and my dagger. I use to try and carry a backup mace but could never draw it fast enough.

BdeB · Post by **BdeB** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:04 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icvRDSzB7Dc

RoaK · Post by **RoaK** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:46 am

Think about it: who would go onto a real medieval battlefield with just one weapon?

A peasant maybeâ€¦

For the longest time I've had only one weapon on me in melee like most in the SCA. We get away with it because our weapons are pretty much indestructible (and we really aren't fighting for our lives). But now in my old age Iâ€™m trying to be moreâ€¦ errâ€¦ period and I now carry at least a dagger on me at all times. I wear it across my right hip and as an added bonus it acts as additional protection for my hip replacement.

Sir Vitus daggers: when you absolutely positively have to shank some in the face...

Ilia_Caid · Post by **Ilia_Caid** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:36 pm

olaf haraldson wrote: He gave me back the seax, informing me he'd killed one guy with it in the meantime. I have now named my seax "Kingsaver". (I'm sure He'd have been fine without it... He is the King after all... but it made the seax feel important.)

Olaf

Awesome!

Leo Medii · Post by **Leo Medii** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:48 pm

Corby de la Flamme wrote:I don't think I have ever, in the midst of an engagement with an opponent, felt pulling a dagger was wise, nor had one used on me successfully.

During the time an opponent has let go of his main weapon to grab the dagger, I have always been able to do violent things to him, and feel quite the same thing would happen to me as I tried to draw mine.

Now, that doesn't mean that a dagger can't be handy if you have a moment to grab it, free of risk of getting whacked in the head.

Had an awesome dagger duel in the woods at Pennsic in 2009 with some Westie knight after losing my right arm spear dueling.

Man, I really need to get to cross poleaxe with you someday. Your reputation makes it a "must do" on my list.

Sir Omarad · Post by **Sir Omarad** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:12 pm

Just remember that you are always armed if you carry a backup weapon.
If you drop your great weapon or spear and expect quarter, you may be mistaken.

Jofthepeace · Post by **Jofthepeace** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:14 pm

Payn wrote:I have a fishbat that I call the MFB. 2.5 inch rattan planed down to 1 and a quarter. Around 18 inches long. I love it.

I have a similar weapon started...need to make my sheath.

Can I ask how you seax users make your scabbards to hold your weapon so it doesn't just fall out, yet easily slides out when pulled?

I keep having a vision of either my back-up seax falling out on it's own so when I reach for it, it's gone. Or, reaching for it...pulling...and then getting killed because it was stuck in it's sheath.

Leo Medii · Post by **Leo Medii** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:16 pm

Sir Omarad wrote:If you drop your great weapon or spear and expect quarter, you may be mistaken.

And should be.

Then again, my belief is dropping a weapon should be a "loss" and the "dropper" should yield the fight and let the opponent decide if they can re-arm.

Sir Omarad · Post by **Sir Omarad** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:23 pm

I carried a dagger, axe, or small mace for years and kept forgetting to use it.
My best dagger move was to take one from my opponent's belt while we both struggled for his spear and stab him in the face, then I stabbed 2 of his squires in the face before their unit clobbered me.
The Knight gifted the dagger to me which I later gifted to another guy who beat me in a dagger battle the next day after both our spears were broken on the castle walls at Pennsic.
Very classic. we both stared at each other with broken spears, we both dropped them and drew daggers, after a flurry of moves I missed my stab to his eyes as he moved in and got me with an undercut to the armpit.
It was more arm than torso but I thought it was a brilliant move and died in appreciation.

Sir Omarad · Post by **Sir Omarad** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:25 pm

jofthepeace wrote:
Payn wrote:I have a fishbat that I call the MFB. 2.5 inch rattan planed down to 1 and a quarter. Around 18 inches long. I love it.

I have a similar weapon started...need to make my sheath.

Can I ask how you seax users make your scabbards to hold your weapon so it doesn't just fall out, yet easily slides out when pulled?

I keep having a vision of either my back-up seax falling out on it's own so when I reach for it, it's gone. Or, reaching for it...pulling...and then getting killed because it was stuck in it's sheath.

I've seen velcro used, tubes of leather that were long enough that it didn't fall out, lots of methods that are dependant on how you fight and what backup weapon you use.

Sir Omarad · Post by **Sir Omarad** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:29 pm

Leo Medii wrote:
Sir Omarad wrote:If you drop your great weapon or spear and expect quarter, you may be mistaken.

And should be.

Then again, my belief is dropping a weapon should be a "loss" and the "dropper" should yield the fight and let the opponent decide if they can re-arm.

People just get upset when they get their spear stripped and just standthere like they are immune while they have a backup weapon in their belt.
I usually give them a little pop to the grille to make sure they are out of the fight.
Better safe than sorry.
Only had one guy get upset.
I reminded him that if he was hard pressed and used the dagger he wouldn't complain that was unfair.
He agreed. He had forgotten he had it on that day.

paulb · Post by **paulb** » Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:52 pm

Gentles,

I don't carry a backup dagger. I agree with Sir Corby about what happens if you reach for one. In addition, my polearm style is more effective in close - very close. I find it handy, especially against an opponent armed with S&S. I seldom have to run after them.

I would carry a backup weapon in a melee, only because it is possible to lose the pole weapon altogether. In that case, I would likely use a bastard sword strapped across my back in a snap-out holder. I also prefer to use a bastard sword at very close range.

Regards,

Paul

Back-up dagger

Back-up dagger

then again....