Leather Strap for Articulation

Damon · Post by **Damon** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 11:08 am

I have read about some people talking about Sliding Rivets and Leather straps for articulation.

I have an old set of legs with articulated knees that I took apart and shined up. However the original maker just did articulation with really long copper rivets. I am going to redo the articulation and was planning on using a leather strap.

What is the advantage of doing a leather strap as opposed to say a long rivet or slot rivets?

Thanks

schreiber · Post by **schreiber** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:44 pm

Need pics.

Long rivets are a pretty common solution for not knowing what you're doing. The problem may be solveable by some more shaping and punching new holes. Or it could be a problem with the pattern itself. Whatever the problem is, long rivets aren't the solution.

Mainly because they are dangerous. Not only does it become a game of whack-a-mole where the mole's hole is in your knee and doesn't exist yet, but they make you fall down. There's a lot of running going on in big battles, and when the inside of the cop on your right knee catches a long rivet on your left knee and you're running as fast as you can wearing an extra 40-60lbs of stuff, you're not going to hit the ground softly.

Leather articulations are generally only used on big cops with no lames - like soupcans. They're also placed differently from proper rivet articulations - but in my experience long rivets usually cover up the fact that the articulation is done way too far toward the front of the cop... and more toward the front is where you'd want a leather strap articulation. So you might have that going for you, if it's big enough, and you just drop the lames.

Damon · Post by **Damon** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 12:58 pm

At work now can't post any pics.

The knee COP is too small it needs the lames. They were basically some mild steel knees I had bought years ago used for pretty cheap. I just figured I would run a leather strap down inside along the original holes. So instead of using the rivets as pivot point.

Now that I think about it I a not sure that would work.

Baron Alcyoneus · Post by **Baron Alcyoneus** » Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:21 pm

I would not use leather straps to articulate knees.

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:18 am

Damon wrote:The knee COP is too small it needs the lames. They were basically some mild steel knees I had bought years ago used for pretty cheap. I just figured I would run a leather strap down inside along the original holes. So instead of using the rivets as pivot point.

The height of the cop is not a great big deal.

It's the breadth. If it goes a good 180 or more about the front of your knee joint, you've got what you need to put real articulation rivets in and improve upon the originator's work.

Be advised, this being your first try it will be a great fumbling nuisance trying to locate your holes properly. Read "Articulation Articulated" in the Known World Handbook for psychological preparation.

The easiest part of things is those four articulating-rivet holes in your cop. They aren't going to be a problem.

The, ah, fun begins with the lame to either side, and for the lames after those the botheration is roughly squared.

It gets rather easier after you've done several pair.

While we are enthusiastic about 3-piece knees for 14th-century legs, well, there are a lot of workable 5-piece knees out there in SCAdia, even for the fourteenth. Historically, five-piece knees are more fifteenth. And there were what amounted to 4-piece knees too, in the fourteenth. So what era is your harness please? Then we'll know what to try and walk you through.

Damon · Post by **Damon** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:59 am

Konstantin the Red wrote:
Damon wrote:While we are enthusiastic about 3-piece knees for 14th-century legs, well, there are a lot of workable 5-piece knees out there in SCAdia, even for the fourteenth. Historically, five-piece knees are more fifteenth. And there were what amounted to 4-piece knees too, in the fourteenth. So what era is your harness please? Then we'll know what to try and walk you through.

I am just reworking these to give to a new person or something of that nature. Also more of a learning experience for me. I am no slouch in the armory but I only maintain my gear and make stuff for new guys.

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:05 pm

Sounds like 5-piece then. And is the side-to-side coverage quite sufficient?? As in "makes the Marshal happy?"

Damon · Post by **Damon** » Thu Mar 17, 2011 5:57 pm

Yes the COP goes side to side with a nice fin.

schreiber · Post by **schreiber** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:49 am

Konstantin the Red wrote:It's the breadth. If it goes a good 180 or more about the front of your knee joint, you've got what you need to put real articulation rivets in and improve upon the originator's work.

True. But depth is of vital importance, too.
A lot of the front-mounted articulations I've seen are on poleyns that just aren't deep enough. There's a reason why armorers working on knees/elbows eventually go to either welded cops or raised. The cop should follow the profile of the knee or elbow, which on the knee is pretty deep for dishing, and on the elbow is IMO impossible without really changing the thickness of the metal.

If these were dished then the safe money says you won't end up with perfection. You might be able to get it pretty good though.

Also, the profile angle of the top and bottom of the cop are of vital importance. If you look at it from the side, and the angle from the top to the fan is around 0 degrees (flat across or close to it), it's going to be much less intuitive to articulate than if it's 20 or 30 degrees. If it's flat, you'll probably want to experiment with putting the holes pretty far in from the edge, toward the middle of the cop, to make up for the fact that it's not the right angle.

Like I said - pics will help us determine.

Be advised, this being your first try it will be a great fumbling nuisance trying to locate your holes properly. Read "Articulation Articulated" in the Known World Handbook for psychological preparation.

Yeah I remember that one, it was a pretty good primer.

One thing I did while figuring this out is I made a cop and a lame, and turned both into swiss cheese, and then spent 3-4 nights experimenting with putting the articulation point in different places. If you can do that, it's a real eye-opener.
It's how I figured out that the angle of the profile is pretty vital.
It's also how I got to the point of being able to analyze pieces I didn't make.
I had a "holy shit" moment last year when I got to look at one of the knees in Wade Allen's collection and realized I knew how to make an authentic piece work better.
So I totally think it's worth it to destroy a couple poleyns, if you can.

The easiest part of things is those four articulating-rivet holes in your cop. They aren't going to be a problem.

Not to harp, but provided the cop is the right depth and right shape in profile, I agree with this. When I make a pair, I get that shape right, and then basically pick places for those holes that look good.

While we are enthusiastic about 3-piece knees for 14th-century legs, well, there are a lot of workable 5-piece knees out there in SCAdia, even for the fourteenth. Historically, five-piece knees are more fifteenth. And there were what amounted to 4-piece knees too, in the fourteenth. So what era is your harness please? Then we'll know what to try and walk you through.

There are a few Maxamillian suits out there with 3-piece joint articulations, so they made their way into the 16th.

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:40 am

Good to know that about Maximilians.

Tradeja a cool datum for that cool datum: there are a few "smooth Maximilian" harnesses: Max style silhouette, breast, and close-helmet that is broad at the visor pivots, but little to no fluting on the whole thing. I have one small photo and a textual ref in my copy of Les Armes et la Vie.