"Fine" Kidney Pouches 14th/15th century--visible stiching???

[PartsAndTechnical]

First ...I dont have Purses in Pieces. Its on the to get list, but in the meantime I could use some input here from folks who have experience with making authentic purses/pouches.

Ive been looking carefully at the Annunciation Triptych etc (these details from Bohemonds site)

Im torn between wether we are seeing stitches or the puckering of thin leather, flipped right side out.




While I know that visible stitching existed, and for added decoration, would it necessarily be of any real value for such fine and decored pouches of the upper crust, particularly since their decoration was of higher value...finer materials, and cast, maybe even silvered or gilt pieces? Seems as though it took a bit more effort to make an inverted pouch with hidden stitching, thus might be a finer pouch/purse. Yes? No? Possibly? Obviously some visible stitching is unavoidable....but if a pouch could be made of finer, thinner leather (a rich man needs not carry his coin with him all the time), wouldnt it make sense that a kidney pouch like those above might be sewn with internal and thus hidden stitches. Visible stitches seem so....bourgeoisie


.

[James B.]

Where do you mean you think you see stitching? The bags shape is created by stitching inside out and turning the leather just like clothing. The top is closed by punching holes through the leather layers and using a leather thong to thread/lace it shut. Like this:



The only outside stitching you see in PiP is on pouchlets or the occasional reinforcement on the slit open mouth on the inside pocket but that is not showing on the outside as it is on the "inside" faces of the layers when the pouch is worn. Like this:



The only outside showing stitch I can think of is the one example with an appliqued piece on the leather strap.

BTW the purses section of Purses in Pieces can be seen in this PDF: http://www.oxbowbooks.com/pdfs/books/pu ... merika.pdf

[Wolf]

awww look, james' balls really are in Kim's purse

[Ismaels-Legacy]

Purses were indeed stitched inside out and then turned before they were fully assembled. What you may be seeing on the pouch is the artist's depiction of the ripple effect made by the leather when it's actually turned inside out. I get this occasionally when there's too much excess leather beyond the stitching or if the angle of the curve is too steep.

[PartsAndTechnical]

Purses were indeed stitched inside out and then turned before they were fully assembled. What you may be seeing on the pouch is the artist's depiction of the ripple effect made by the leather when it's actually turned inside out. I get this occasionally when there's too much excess leather beyond the stitching or if the angle of the curve is too steep.

Yes I tend to agree. I used the term puckering but its one in the same. Rippling, puckering, cinching.

[Ismaels-Legacy]

I've found that it sewn wet, and trimmed close to the stitching after completion, you can usually reduce or eliminate this effect, though it always makes me nervous about cutting too close.

[white mountain armoury]

awww look, james' balls really are in Kim's purse

That was good

[PartsAndTechnical]

awww look, james' balls really are in Kim's purse

That was good

at least she lets them breathe.

[James B.]

That's it laugh it up chuckle heads

[PartsAndTechnical]

Huh? Ive always admired your small balls.

In all seriousness, James, thanks for posting that picture. Gave me some ideas.

[Kilkenny]

heh.
Is the joke funny when it reveals ignorance?

As to stitches on pouchlets showing - I can't think of how you could sew them on without visible stitching. It's not possible to sew them inside out and invert them.

On further consideration, if you were appallingly good at it, you could sew from the backside of the main pouch, through a turned under lip on the pouchlet and back, keeping the stitching hidden inside the pouchlet. It would take someone with surgeon type sewing skills, to work inside the small space of the pouchlet. Definitely beyond me.

[Kaos]

Well, the question's been answered, but some more information can't hurt.

Here are some photos of an original purse I took at the final Goubitz exhibition:





I'm sorry for the blurriness, I hope they're of some use.

Here's my personal pouch based on the same sources you quote:

Here's a link with additional photos if you're interested.
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=87087&view=next

[Ismaels-Legacy]

Those photos are quite helpful, indeed! I see that my stitching is on part, but the lacing used to hold the front and back together is rather surprising! I had no idea that it was actually so thin!

[AwP]

heh.
Is the joke funny when it reveals ignorance?

As to stitches on pouchlets showing - I can't think of how you could sew them on without visible stitching. It's not possible to sew them inside out and invert them.

On further consideration, if you were appallingly good at it, you could sew from the backside of the main pouch, through a turned under lip on the pouchlet and back, keeping the stitching hidden inside the pouchlet. It would take someone with surgeon type sewing skills, to work inside the small space of the pouchlet. Definitely beyond me.

I don't know if it was done this way, but I can think of how it'd be possible, and not even that difficult, to do. Start at the bottom of the pouchlet with a double needled thread, and go evenly up both sides rather than starting at an end, similar to how you'd rivet the lid of a greathelm before you rivet on the bottom parts on so you don't have to reach in so deep.

[Kilkenny]

heh.
Is the joke funny when it reveals ignorance?

As to stitches on pouchlets showing - I can't think of how you could sew them on without visible stitching. It's not possible to sew them inside out and invert them.

On further consideration, if you were appallingly good at it, you could sew from the backside of the main pouch, through a turned under lip on the pouchlet and back, keeping the stitching hidden inside the pouchlet. It would take someone with surgeon type sewing skills, to work inside the small space of the pouchlet. Definitely beyond me.

I don't know if it was done this way, but I can think of how it'd be possible, and not even that difficult, to do. Start at the bottom of the pouchlet with a double needled thread, and go evenly up both sides rather than starting at an end, similar to how you'd rivet the lid of a greathelm before you rivet on the bottom parts on so you don't have to reach in so deep.

You really don't need to do that. Just start at one end and work your way around to the other, you can keep part of the pouchlet pulled back out of the way as you go. You just need to be able to keep track of the line you're sewing while, I think, working from the pouchlet side (and so sewing blind on the back).

In any case, I know it challenges both my poor sewing skills and my ham hands