Let's talk AXES!!!

[YMHoward]

I have finally finished my axehead to my own satisfaction, and am begging for some tips on using it effectively.
The axe is 44 inches from tip to tip, with a thrusting tip and enough of a 'beard' to catch swords and shields.

I was mostly trying to swing at arm and legs, and then step in at the weaker side. Even fighting a florentine I found that if I kept well back I would have a chance with a thrusting tip. Without I was simply trying to keep his weapons tangled long enough to be able to reset while moving backwards out of range, hoping for a chance at his leading leg or arm.


Is adding a spike to the other end allowed?

[AndreasMorgan]

i'm fairly certain the weapon needs to be 48" or better to incorporate a tail spike

[Gaston de Clermont]

You've got a big long pry bar. You can use that leverage advantage up close to manipulate your opponent. Make sure they know you can do it and it will make their advance more cautious. Try not to back up straight. It's too predictable and doesn't gain you any interesting angles.

[Tegan]

I could be wrong but I looked through the Marshal's Handbook (EK) and I don't see a minimum length for a two handed weapon.

When I play with my 4 ft axe I like to get in very close. I use a lot of "paddle" motions and I've found the back blade to be very useful. When playing against a sword and shield fighter I try to get my haft on their sword basket and shove it around, either by firing down at their shoulder/elbow or up under it (to push it across their body). Against other weapon forms I fight with it somewhere between a greatsword and a polearm. Choking up right under the head and punching people in the face one handed is also a source of much joy.

[Sir Omarad]

48" is the minimum for a 2-handed weapon.

no butt spike on anything less than 48"

[Adriano]

Hang on. (Didn't we used to have an "Edit" button?)

Omarad, I didn't realize you were the Society Earl Marshall 'til just now, when I was trying to look up more definitive information. So, does this mean these two ridiculous rules:

48" is the minimum for a 2-handed weapon.

no butt spike on anything less than 48"

apply in all the kingdoms, including Meridies? 'Cause nobody's said anything about my 40" two-handed mace with a butt spike.

[Tegan]

Sir Omarad: Could you point me to where that's documented? I looked in the handbook and SEM rulings and the only restrictions I see for two handed weapons are:

VII. WEAPONS STANDARDS
C. Two-Handed Weapons.
6. Weapons exceeding 7 1⁄2 feet (2.286 m) shall not be used for cutting or smashing and shall be used for thrusting only.
7. Total weapon length shall not exceed 12 feet (3.658 m).

Where should I be looking that I'm not? (I'm not trying to argue, I just want to be sure I can cite the rule in case I need it...)

Thanks,
Tegan

[Davedabruchey]

I pick up a 50 inch axe on a market day for 10.00 and got to fight with it once. It way the most fun I’ve had since I started in November. It has blade and spike at one end and another spike on the other. I haven’t learned a lot yet but have been told that keeping the shaft at a 45deg angel will help with defense as it can block vertical and horizontal swings.

One slick attack I’ve been shown (but not mastered) vs. Sword & shield was to step in and block the sword high. Drop the axe shaft behind the shield (arm to each side if you can) and pull the shield into yourself, then twist and take them in the head with the axe blade. It all has to be quick and smooth to work before then take your head off but a little surprise can go a long way.

I also found the axe to suck v.s. great sword but it might also have to do with the guy I was fighting. He has 10 years experience on me and the great sword is his favored weapon.

[Corby de la Flamme]

When fighting a small axe two handed against a shieldman, my first advice is: good armor. Lots of it.

Secondly, get to inside range, never throw at legs unless the opponent is totally flummoxed and putting his shield over his head. From inside range, use the haft to control the opponent's weapon arm.

[Sir Omarad]

Sir Omarad: Could you point me to where that's documented? I looked in the handbook and SEM rulings and the only restrictions I see for two handed weapons are:

VII. WEAPONS STANDARDS
C. Two-Handed Weapons.
6. Weapons exceeding 7 1⁄2 feet (2.286 m) shall not be used for cutting or smashing and shall be used for thrusting only.
7. Total weapon length shall not exceed 12 feet (3.658 m).

Where should I be looking that I'm not? (I'm not trying to argue, I just want to be sure I can cite the rule in case I need it...)

Thanks,
Tegan

It's in the next batch of rules/clarifications.
It was a compromise from several other changes that were proposed lastyear.
It'll be posted soon.
Wanted to tell someone making an axe ahead of time.

[Thomas MacFinn]

Doesn't this fly in the face of the efforts in several kingdoms to make longswords that can employ legal pommel strikes?

[YMHoward]

Thanks guys!

What about power generation for your shots? I was finding that levering the axe by pushing out with the top hand while pulling in with the bottom hand I just wasn't getting the power that I can with a regular sword. I was hesitant to do big swings for fear of leaving myself wide open, while at the same time possibly putting in too much power (I'm gonna spend a few minutes next prac on calibration).

Also, which hand do you prefer to hold near the head? Your dominant hand? Or do you change depending on circumstances?

Thanks,
Yehuda

[benz72]

Thoughts on axe fighing.

1) Footwork is your friend. You need to work angles and to do that, you need to move

2) Footwork is your friend. You need to be in and out of range as you choose to be, not caught in the middle

3) A short snap stroke is hard to block, there is plenty of leverage between your hands. Don't overswing

4) Hooking a shield reduces your offense more than it reduces his defense. You need to be in a really good position to make this a favorable option

5) Every part is useful. Practice blocking and manipulating your opponents weapon/shield with the three divisions (in front of forward hand, between hands, aft of rearward hand. The mechanics are all different and some feel unnatural at first.

6) If your axe isn't between you and your opponent's weapon and your body be out of range (or have it already burried in he grill).

7) You can't survive against arrows, don't bother trying. Find a way to hid behind shields in melee with archery.

In melee, sometimes pushing on the bottom of a shield is just as effective as pulling on the top... and it's sneakier

As for the forward hand question, I like to have my axehead facing my opponent's weapon side. If they are 2 weapon, or spear I tend to have my dominant hand forward.
Did I mention footwork?

[Davedabruchey]

When fighting a small axe two handed against a shieldman, my first advice is: good armor. Lots of it.

My cracked rib agrees.

[Fulk Beauxarmes]

What about power generation for your shots? ...

Also, which hand do you prefer to hold near the head? Your dominant hand? Or do you change depending on circumstances?

I've started working with a daneaxe recently, and I've found that power-generation isn't much of a problem -- all that weight out at the end of a 48" stave gives lots of power. With a bit of practice and calibration you'll do fine.

I've also found that I tend change my grip depending on circumstances: it goes back and forth between right and left a lot. I suggest practicing that transition -- in your gauntlets! -- until it becomes natural and smooth.

[Tegan]

Thoughts on axe fighing.

1) Footwork is your friend. You need to work angles and to do that, you need to move

In the immortal words of the Violent Femmess, "When I say dance, you best dance Mother Rucker!"


2) Footwork is your friend. You need to be in and out of range as you choose to be, not caught in the middle

4) Hooking a shield reduces your offense more than it reduces his defense. You need to be in a really good position to make this a favorable option

Second this. I (almost) never hook shields when fighting singles. It's basically handing control of my offense over to my opponent while doing _nothing_ to counteract their offense.


As for the forward hand question, I like to have my axehead facing my opponent's weapon side. If they are 2 weapon, or spear I tend to have my dominant hand forward.

I switch. Having my top hand on my opponents weapon side makes it easier to punch them in the face but it also means I'm throwing a 'weaker' and less defensive shot when I fire between their sword and shield edge to take their shoulder or arm. Against a right handed shield shooting into that crease puts my haft between my body and the sword if my right hand is high. It also lets me create some incidental contact with my right shoulder into their shield and sets me up nicely to use the back spike on an upswing. If my left hand is high it's harder to follow the edge of the shield and I either have to have my right arm across my body or give up any semblance of blocking and I'm not set up as well for my next shot.

But left hand high means more face punching.


Did I mention footwork?

What he said...

Also, remember that hip and inner thigh shots are kills with a mass weapon and when you're driving the bottom end of your axe up into your opponents basket and taking a hanging guard it doesn't take much to turn that into a shot to the inner thigh at the same time.

-Tegan

[Tegan]

Wow. Someone around here needs to learn how to use quote tags properly.
And by "someone" I mean me. I didn't mean to put some many words in benz72's mouth...
*facepalm*

[Corby de la Flamme]

What about power generation for your shots? I was finding that levering the axe by pushing out with the top hand while pulling in with the bottom hand I just wasn't getting the power that I can with a regular sword. I was hesitant to do big swings for fear of leaving myself wide open, while at the same time possibly putting in too much power (I'm gonna spend a few minutes next prac on calibration).

Also, which hand do you prefer to hold near the head? Your dominant hand? Or do you change depending on circumstances?

If you can't generate easy killing blows, and I mean easy, your axe head is too soft.

My dominant hand is always on top.

[Kilkenny]

Axes - nasty, brutish and short. Think that way with them

I suggest you spend some time with your axe in front of a mirror, looking at what opens up on you with various kinds of attacks. I think you'll be a bit surprised, especially by how swinging your axe at someone's leg pretty much screams "Take My Head!!!"

Power generation - you may be trying to do it all just with your arms and that might be a bit difficult. Get some core into it, a little torso rotation, and it should bump right up. Your hands may be spaced poorly as well - too close together or too far apart will both limit your effective leverage for striking.

Movement that puts you at angles where you're harder to hit and the other guy is more exposed.

Practice

[Benedek]

Loads of good advice thus far. Footwork, timing, and angles are key.

What I have found that works for me is to throw 3 times as many shots as you would with other systems. Keep them reeling. The best defense you have with any great weapon is simply not being where the can hit you. Stay out of range until you are ready to throw a flurry of blows.

[Adriano]

Sir Omarad: Could you point me to where that's documented? I looked in the handbook and SEM rulings and the only restrictions I see for two handed weapons are:

VII. WEAPONS STANDARDS
C. Two-Handed Weapons.
6. Weapons exceeding 7 1⁄2 feet (2.286 m) shall not be used for cutting or smashing and shall be used for thrusting only.
7. Total weapon length shall not exceed 12 feet (3.658 m).

Where should I be looking that I'm not? (I'm not trying to argue, I just want to be sure I can cite the rule in case I need it...)

Thanks,
Tegan

It's in the next batch of rules/clarifications.
It was a compromise from several other changes that were proposed lastyear.
It'll be posted soon.
Wanted to tell someone making an axe ahead of time.

Thanks, Omarad! Still seems like silly rules to me, but we're used to that. I'd found that 40" was too short for my needs anyway; I'm going to transfer the mace head to a longer stick.

[Adriano]

Meant to add -- when I've used an axe, my biggest problem was that I kept getting in close and hitting my annoyed opponent with the haft. Guess that just takes practice. Maybe work with a pell, moving around a lot, striking from different distances and angles, until you consistently hit with the edge.

[Gaston de Clermont]

My dominant hand tends to be closer to the head, but it can be useful to switch. Most folks like to thrust with their dominant hand back, like they would with a pool queue. I just trained myself to thrust well with the dominant hand forward so I can chop and thrust effectively without changing. If you're fighting someone who's also using a great weapon pay close attention to which hand they have forward since it changes what their quick blocks and strikes are by a lot.

For power generation I don't rely on a push-pull. Most of my power comes from a hip twist, and my arms stay bent unless I'm reaching for something extreme.

I have seen that leg shots from rubber axe heads tend to not get taken so easily because they don't smack like people are used to. The head shots concuss pretty well so they're less of a problem.

I take a slightly different spin on what Corby said- I throw leg shots occasionally to keep my opponents guessing, and I do it mostly when I'm relatively safe. Head, arm and body shots are a much higher priority.

[Urdok]

I pick up a 50 inch axe on a market day for 10.00 and got to fight with it once. It way the most fun I’ve had since I started in November. It has blade and spike at one end and another spike on the other. I haven’t learned a lot yet but have been told that keeping the shaft at a 45deg angel will help with defense as it can block vertical and horizontal swings.

One slick attack I’ve been shown (but not mastered) vs. Sword & shield was to step in and block the sword high. Drop the axe shaft behind the shield (arm to each side if you can) and pull the shield into yourself, then twist and take them in the head with the axe blade. It all has to be quick and smooth to work before then take your head off but a little surprise can go a long way.

I also found the axe to suck v.s. great sword but it might also have to do with the guy I was fighting. He has 10 years experience on me and the great sword is his favored weapon.

Assuming similar lengths, I've found that swords have the advantage at long range due to being better thrusters and having better balance/being more nimble at near max range. Once you close, however, the versatility and leverage of the axe tends to win out. In these fights, I tend to end up hooking his blade or crossguard out of the way and going for a short, stiff thrust.

[Baron Eirik]

What I have found that works for me is to throw 3 times as many shots as you would with other systems. Keep them reeling.

I refer to this as 'suppression fire'

[Guillaume Beauvin]

Also, remember that hip and inner thigh shots are kills with a mass weapon

emphasis mine... is this true? I know in rapier an inner thigh kills, but I thought mass weapons only added hip and shoulder to the kill zone?

-Guillaume

[Corby de la Flamme]

Loads of good advice thus far. Footwork, timing, and angles are key.

As they are with any fighting.

What I have found that works for me is to throw 3 times as many shots as you would with other systems. Keep them reeling. The best defense you have with any great weapon is simply not being where the can hit you. Stay out of range until you are ready to throw a flurry of blows.

This advice seems to be contradictory. Keep them reeling but stay out of range?

Playing keep away is of limited use with a great weapon, especially a short one. I recommend practicing short range and getting comfortable there.

[Baron Eirik]

This advice seems to be contradictory. Keep them reeling but stay out of range?

Playing keep away is of limited use with a great weapon, especially a short one. I recommend practicing short range and getting comfortable there.

Keep'em away, until the time of your choosing. Most shieldmen will want to close, for good reason. You want to control the timing of when you let them close.

But, yeah, learn to fight up close & personal, too.

[Tegan]

Also, remember that hip and inner thigh shots are kills with a mass weapon

emphasis mine... is this true? I know in rapier an inner thigh kills, but I thought mass weapons only added hip and shoulder to the kill zone?

-Guillaume

Sorry, East Kingdom rule.
From http://marshal.eastkingdom.org/Policies ... ingdom.pdf

<snip>
Part II. Conventions of Combat for the East Kingdom
CC13. A mace, war hammer, polearm, or great sword blow to the hip kills, as does an ax blow to the inner thigh. </snip>

-Tegan

[Leo Medii]

Doesn't this fly in the face of the efforts in several kingdoms to make longswords that can employ legal pommel strikes?

sigh. I hope not. There is a ton of it done historically.

[Stephen du Bois]

Thomas MacFinn wrote:
Doesn't this fly in the face of the efforts in several kingdoms to make longswords that can employ legal pommel strikes?
.

Why would it? Your long sword needs to be a minimum of 48 inches. No real issue.

Stephen