Okay so I have decided on 1480's-1500 for my time period. Because Im adventurous and have way too high expectations of myself, I decided I need two sets of armour. I know that for sure Im going to start working on building a late 15th c german high gothic period Helmschmied harness, and use it for special events, what would be considered "court armour" I guess. How acceptable/believable would it be to have a second set of armour for fighting in, something simpler and not necessarily german in origin but available in the area, but in the same time frame? Mainly, I dont want to bash up tons of fluting on a gothic harness, as Im a newby at fighting
Also, I need to get a soft kit going. I know what I need to get for wearing under armour, but what would a german of that time frame be wearing when not in armour? Plus, who has good patterns for suggested garments?
Thank you in advance for any info you can give, and also for your time to answer
I'm not a fan of the concept of court armour. Knights did not walk around in armour all day. Try it on a hot day and you'll find out why. An especially rich nobleman might have a suit of armour especially for parade and perhaps ceremonial use, but most wouldn't. Armour is a tool for combat. Anything not intended for that use is just a fancy costume.
As for soft kit, If you're making it yourself, get a copy of the medieval tailors assistant by Sarah Thursfield. Start at underwear and work your way out. Underclothing is generally easier and you won't see the mistakes any beginner makes as much as they're covered by outer clothing. Look at period pictures, lots of 'em. Larsdatter.com is an exellent start. If you see something someone else wears and you really like it, try to find out what their sources are (by asking the wearer for instance) and study those, rather than copying someone else's interpretation. Maybe you end up doing exactly the same, but at least you know what the originals look like.
Thanks for the suggestions! Eventually, I plan on fighting in whatever german gothic armour I make, but I just don't like the idea of being too much of a novice at fighting and it getting bashed to bits due to inexperience. Hence easier, simpler armour that I don't care much about.
In no way am I planning on wearing armour all day... talk about hot and a useless waste of energy
From personal experience, stepping on the field with good looking armour is a great way to learn quicker. First opponents look at your armour and bring their A game, secondly your armour will get you noticed so people will grab you and work with you, give you advice critique etc.
How well do you think the fluting will hold up? I'm contemplating using spring steel and heat treating, but use the same gauges as I would with mild steel just so it has that extra durability.
That's some good insight though. I just started learning how to fight a week ago, and am constantly getting my ass kicked
zachos wrote:If your mates are denting the flutes in heat treated spring steel, then you need new mates.
A-fricking-men.
"There is a tremendous amount of information in a picture, but getting at it is not a purely passive process. You have to work at it, but the more you work at it the easier it becomes." - Mac
Historically it looks like heat treatment was done in addition to typical thicknesses of armour so if you are comfy doing that you are good.
I agree with the idea of court armour Matt voiced. Better to get a nicer over tunic and hose and wear those. Likely cheaper as well. You could make a nice concealed brig if you like or are worried about daggers.
coreythompsonhm wrote:I already had to trash my left leg harness after two practices. 14 gauge mild steel
this is slightly disturbing.. I have a very old set of legs in 16 and 14 gauge that survived my first introduction to sca fighting and hadn't so much as received the smallest dent or deforming shot. If your leg harness was destroyed in two practices you need to maybe ask them to tone it down a little.
Caleb wrote:this is slightly disturbing.. I have a very old set of legs in 16 and 14 gauge that survived my first introduction to sca fighting and hadn't so much as received the smallest dent or deforming shot. If your leg harness was destroyed in two practices you need to maybe ask them to tone it down a little.
I have made the decision to find another group. I get the impression this shire is close knit and doesnt want "outsiders," yet everyone else I have talked to is more than welcoming.
Thank you for all of the imput, it is greatly appreciated. I bought The Medieval Tailor's Assistant and some material to start on my undergarments. I'll update with progress soon!
Corey, have you actually got the metalworking experience to do late-fifteenth yourself?? What have you got in your shop? You're going to need a big one, with a lot of capital expended in tools -- featuring a lot of the stuff in the shop chapter of your TOMAR. Hadn't heard about you winning the lottery -- or going fifteen thousand in debt taking a bank loan. Car's all paid off, is it?
You were the one with the apprentice thread, you know -- in April this year. Two months of occasional hobby metalworking isn't likely enough to give you good fluted gothic, Corey. It might be just enough to get you decent fluting of a vambrace... and then there's everything else, plus actually shaping the metal accurately imitating what they did then.
Most folks would rather start out with the simpler shapes of fourteenth, gaining experience pushing metal about, before taking fifteenth century on -- and 15th-c. HRE at that. Having gained experience on 14th, then they're ready for 15th-c. gothic.
The fighters in that anonymous Shire should NOT have been able to tear up 14ga (and that is very very heavy) legharness as you describe. Certainly not if they want new fight-partners. Pic or a forensic description of the remains? Wonder what kind of rhino hunt they think they are on in that part of An Tir? The situation sounds crazy -- or like ignoble break-the-newbie stuff.
It's a worthy goal you've set yourself -- and everybody loves late-fifteenth -- but I'm not sure you appreciate just how many steps you need to take to get to that pinnacle in good form. I'm saying this as a friend.
You might work your way up through the social classes to gain practice. Do late 15th century clothes, and as you need to replace them when they wear out, make ones of higher social status. Same goes for armor. make a good 15th century brigandine for practice in general metal shaping, then plates such as arms/legs that can be worn with the brig and eventually with a full harness. Heck maybe even make an infantrymens jack and a set of gothic knees.
knitebee wrote:From personal experience, stepping on the field with good looking armour is a great way to learn quicker. First opponents look at your armour and bring their A game, secondly your armour will get you noticed so people will grab you and work with you, give you advice critique etc.
This.
I agree with this. When I was able to pry myself away from the Target Archery range at Pennsic 37 for a chance at CA on the Big Field, I put on my harness and walked out there.
I was able to hold off skirmish units just by pointing my xbow at them, as they assessed me by my harness. There's a few pics around somewhere. Between battles I made friends with quite a few other period kit fighters, I swear they all must have come from here. Nicest bunch of blokes I've met, with nothing but awesomeness, and sweat, dripping off of them as we chatted up armour in the hot August sun.
Well, I don't know where to start with this subject, so sorry if it seems a little out of order/ scatter brained.
Sorry if this was not made clear in the beginning of the thread, I was asking as part of my research for when I do make (eventually) a late fifteenth century persona. I understand that RESEARCH is the first step ANYONE would take. Research takes a while, and so does the actually building, making process. If it was misunderstood that I am not starting this project imediately, then I am sorry I was not clear on this for you all.
I feel like I had perfect, legitimate questions. Konstantin you said it best "or like ignoble break-the-newbie stuff." Honestly, it did feel like thats what was going on. They will remain anonymous, Im not that guy. I walked away, albeit bruised as hell, and they can remain lonely in their little click. People will be people, and I will not let it effect me.
Thats also why I asked the durability questions on fluting... why go through all the work and let it get bashed up? Made sense with what I was experiencing. I might have taken pics, but atm moment I cant remember. I'll make a point on searching through what I have to see if there are any of said leg harness.
Im planning projects that will slowly progress in difficulty, slowly adding on new skills, so I start gaining the experience necessary. I know this is not a fast process, but a rather slow one.. A gothic harness is my goal, so that is why almost all my questions are about it, or about any technique involved. Allows me to gather a plan, get my research squared away, start designing, etc. all while working on other projects to learn and improve techniques and knowledge.
Aha. I think we got an unfortunate impression about how you were wanting to start on 15th-c. full plate about next week or so.
We get that from time to time, mostly from romance-struck youngsters not yet old enough to buy liquor legally. I reckon it comes with the territory. A particularly unfortunate example was some adolescent who wanted right off to build Assassin armor straight from Assassins' Creed. Buh-ro-therrrr. On several grounds. He hasn't been back.
So, yeah. Basic training project: 15th-c. spaudlers. Small manageable project, small initial investment in tools, equipment, and supplies, and readily integrated into HRE/German-style plate armor. You can even start out at practicing fluting on spauds.
There's nothing wrong with buying knee cops. Most people with German three-piece arms make all three pieces including the German biconical elbow, or I'd've mentioned buying elbow cops too. Though German armor shops were known to construct armor after the Italian school of design, and likewise the Italians mirrored German style too. Each party duly stamped their own armourers' poinçons on the harnesses they made, which is how we know they did this switch-off. That and Italian or German proof-marks.
Having bought kneecops, then you go at making the rest of the legharness.
Gauntlets will be pretty demanding and may involve your next round of tool purchasing or making. Getting the articulation nice is fairly tricky as there are subtleties in the way your hand bones really move. Funnily enough, it's simpler to get it right if you use many plates and lots of riveted articulations rather than a very few large plates -- because you have to really know what you're doing to get a few-plates mitt right than a many-plates one. It's not simpler.
Konstantin the Red wrote:Gauntlets will be pretty demanding and may involve your next round of tool purchasing or making. Getting the articulation nice is fairly tricky as there are subtleties in the way your hand bones really move. Funnily enough, it's simpler to get it right if you use many plates and lots of riveted articulations rather than a very few large plates -- because you have to really know what you're doing to get a few-plates mitt right than a many-plates one. It's not simpler.
Yup. There were people who specialized in making nothing but gauntlets. Armorers would sub-contract all sorts of things, such as locksmiths to make the closures, professional artists to do the engraving, etc.
Oh man, some of my friends play d&d, and I cringe everytime I here them talking about it and they start mentioning plate maille....
Also another thing, its going to take me some time to get the arming clothes done for the gothic harness... they need to be done before I even think of taking measurements.
My project right now is re working my 14th c transitional. I pounded it out fast with little regard for the correct form , just to get me out fighting (read fugly and incorrect) Now Im taking my time to go through and make sure Im getting the correct shape and lines. Taking the time to put creases where they should be, and over all as correct as possible. Then I'll be taking up the small, harder training projects.
Im slowly building up my tool arsenal as I need it. Im fortunate that I already had quite a bit of tools, like band saws, grinders, belt sanders, buffers, etc. Just been modifying hammers as I need them and making stakes out of 1" x 1" barstock. Found a big pile of rr spikes last weekend, so Im going to start making stakes out of those.
You don't have to feel bad about how recent art direction decisions at TSR makes their "plate mail" into something stupid and cartoonish. Back in the late seventies and through a good portion of the eighties until certain artists started bastardizing depictions of armor into wild-ass dope visions, it was fairly understandable that plate mail was like 14th century transitional armor and field plate and the like was more like the 15th century armors.
Anyway, rock on. Sounds like as long as you keep at it you could do great things. You're in the right place for advice. Use the search function and don't be afraid to resurrect old threads if you need to re-address the topic.
Best,
John
He who does not give what he has will not get what he wants.
coreythompsonhm wrote:. . . I cringe every time I [hear] them talking about it and they start mentioning plate maille....
Yeah. It's a well-attested Victorianism and pre-Victorianism, which came about through poetic license, whereby "mail" had come to refer to any sort of armor, and "mailed" could mean "armored" as it still does. When such phrases were being written serious plate armor use was at least a generation in the past. (And the jokes about full plate of proof being the most humane of war's instruments were still current.)
The gentlest way to reform the buddies' phrasing is to run a game of your own and as DM use technically good terminology all the time. Some years ago now, we would get guys who would innocently type plate mail in their first or second postings here. They got straightened out pretty quick, if not always mercifully. Few of these guys stuck around; weren't ready for the likes of us I suppose.
Enny Whey... start-out project on 15th-c. German-style: a pair of spaudlers, with in your case simple vertical fluting, perhaps 3-cusp edges, the cusps lining up with the fluting and counting the point of the V-shaped bottom edge of the lame as the middle cusp. Then have the flutes spray out upon the shoulder cop. Makin' it gothic!
You'll do all the forming first, probably entirely by dishing unless you have an anvil of some kind and a soft-faced hammer, then use a blunted 1/2" brick chisel or cold chisel, whichever you'd rather, as your creasing/fluting stake. Round its corners off, and indeed slightly round the profile of the entire edge so it looks like a flatter ) shape. A small chisel like this, you can steer it around gentle curves to make curved sprays of flutes.
Shoulder cop, with four or five lames each, quite deeply V'd, and reaching down over the future rerebrace, which may get some fluting en suite with the spauds. 16 gauge coldrolled is fine. If you have some 18ga lying around awaiting "the call," you could use it for the lames, but I think you may prefer 16 gauge for the cop part.
This very manageable, small project, not terribly costly in time nor material, will teach you layout, cutting out, filing edges, dishing and maybe raising also (all the pieces will get dishing, the lames only just a little bit but the cop more), then planishing, punching/drilling rivet holes, metal finishing and polishing, rivet peining, articulating rivets, articulation upon interior leathers, and for 16th century anyway, sliding rivets also for the rear edge and the punching of slots for that. Lots of good lessons stuffed into small convenient armor bits. And it's thoroughly fifteenth century, as you wished.
Two tools that will make your life speedier and easier once you have yourself a wooden workbench to push metal around on: one bench vise, and at least one Roper-Whitney No. 5 Jr metal punch. Multiple hand metal punches mean you can set up one with one hole diameter and another with the other one you use most.
Many many have walked this road ahead of you, Corey. It is very well charted. Some of them started with less shop than you. There was that kid in Taiwan who made a helm bending its components over a concrete curb... no idea what shape the curb was in afterwards. His next helm after that was made using better tools gotten through his university, and was much handsomer.
Say the word and I'll launch into Bench Building 101 -- a carpentry project anybody can do, making a nice strong bench you can take down for transportation by undoing some carriage bolts, and made of cheap stout lumber.
I already have a very sturdy, overly built workbench with a 3/8" steel plate top, and I hope that I will NEVER have to move that damn thing again
"Enny Whey... start-out project on 15th-c. German-style: a pair of spaudlers, with in your case simple vertical fluting, perhaps 3-cusp edges, the cusps lining up with the fluting and counting the point of the V-shaped bottom edge of the lame as the middle cusp. Then have the flutes spray out upon the shoulder cop. Makin' it gothic!"
Can you please provide a good pic of an historical example for me to look at? Just so I can see what you are explaining better. I understand what you have outlined, but I am also a very visual person.
Maybe. I'll look around. The basic idea was make spaudlers, say from a Talbot's Fine Accessories pattern if one has spauds in it, and then lay out and hammer in flutes going up the middle. Mostly straight flutes until we get to the shoulder-cop, then curve 'em out some. Perhaps some others added in near the edges as well. Talbot's patterns are inexpensive, all between $5-$10.
Late-fourteenth spaudleroid articulations usually, though not always, were very simple shapes, the lames very horizontal. As we move into the fifteenth's "because we can" style of doing things, from about the second quarter of the century we see spaudlers become a separate armor piece, and come farther down the upper arm to overlap the rerebrace enough, and also the lames became taller, they added a lame or two depending on just how tall those lames were, and they got more V shaped. Inverted chevrons, big ones, and several of them.
Decorative elements like flutings and cusped edges, frequent repetition of V-shaped motifs in shaping plates and in arrays of flutes, and nipped in wasp waists and fifteenth-century helmets define the gothic/Holy Roman Empire (HRE) look -- that lean and spiky look. Any of the Helmschmieds, armourers to the court at Vienna, are exemplars of the gothic style of the last quarter of the fifteenth century. In the early sixteenth, the heavily fluted and very differently shaped Maximilian style came from them also.
"There is a tremendous amount of information in a picture, but getting at it is not a purely passive process. You have to work at it, but the more you work at it the easier it becomes." - Mac
Yeah -- bat-wing pointies like Keegan's second pic. That's what cusps are. Note how the flutes go to the cusps. Note, in other photos in that series, association of cusps in the edges with rivets. This can mean the rivet is a sliding rivet, and there's a bit of metal extended out there to keep the slot in the plate beneath covered up.
Another typical 15th-c. element, on display in this armour, is the two-piece, globose breastplate, often teamed with a two-piece backplate as well. Breastplate, and plackart, which covers the belly and is built with a big central inverted-V cusp, and this one seems to have a pivot rivet in the middle, and two sliders out on the sides. Pretty typical.
Going on in the series, we have the world famous Archduke Sigismund harness, with its mini-pauldrons/super spaudlers/cut-back pauldrons. The other suit features something like them, plus a besagew either armpit. Hard to call 'em; they are like a transitional form between the typical forms of the two shoulder defenses, and the fifteenth century did a lot of experimenting with shoulder and upper arm armor, trying to find something mobile and efficient. The classic pauldron eventually took form from all of this, though it would not come to dominance until the next century. Keegan's first pic, which I think is of a sixteenth-century piece (mid, at a guess) I think is a true pauldron, though the pic concentrates mainly upon its lames running down the upper arm.
Yes, that breastplate is indeed a three-piece: breast, plackart, and a lame between them. Fancy schmancy.
See all those V shapes everywhere?
And the German elbows could have been built pointy, though these are rounded off.
Down on the leg shots of the Sigismund, note the quite small knee cops and the large number of lames, making up a five-piece knee with a demigreave below and a matching piece above which I think is fixed, not articulated, from the three large rivets holding it on -- a separate piece of metal, permanently affixed to the lower end of the cuisse. Don't see that piece as free to move in any direction.
See how very closely the kneecop fans lie to the rest of the leg armor; not everybody manages to get it that smooth.
We can leave the Sanseverino armour that follows alone; Italian style was doing very different things.
Last edited by Konstantin the Red on Mon Jun 20, 2011 3:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
Another 15th c kit thread! 
