SCA Combat Training: Flat Snap, foot position

[Ogedei]

I am new to this whole training deal. It's not something I have worked to become good at. It is something I am trying to correct, I believe it will benefit me and those around me.

Last night I was doing slow work with a new fighter. Going through the flat snap with him. Basic from the shoulder, rotate, extend, teardrop return.

When I throw this most basic form, I stand feet, shoulder width apart, one or the other feet slightly ahead. When I throw this my feet remain on the floor, not planted, but they don't move. When our new guy throws he rotates enough that his back foot pivots and his heel comes off the ground. I don't mean a little bit off the ground. Perhaps he is over rotating?

I know I don't do this. I know I can generate plenty of power. I also know it's not something I have watched for. I know it dosen't occur in most of the flat snap technique videos I just watched either.

any thoughts on this?

Ogedei

[Ogedei]

more info: In this situation his stance is shield leg forward, sword leg back. It is his sword leg that pivots up.

[Maeryk]

I am new to this whole training deal. It's not something I have worked to become good at. It is something I am trying to correct, I believe it will benefit me and those around me.

Last night I was doing slow work with a new fighter. Going through the flat snap with him. Basic from the shoulder, rotate, extend, teardrop return.

When I throw this most basic form, I stand feet, shoulder width apart, one or the other feet slightly ahead. When I throw this my feet remain on the floor, not planted, but they don't move. When our new guy throws he rotates enough that his back foot pivots and his heel comes off the ground. I don't mean a little bit off the ground. Perhaps he is over rotating?

I know I don't do this. I know I can generate plenty of power. I also know it's not something I have watched for. I know it dosen't occur in most of the flat snap technique videos I just watched either.

any thoughts on this?

Ogedei

Same way I always threw it.. feet shoulder width, sword leg back and bent slightly, rotate on the ball of the foot when throwing. Rotate the other way on BOTH feet to turn it into an offside recovery, or just rotate the rear foot back to "horse" during the teardrop.

I've always had shoulder and back problems, and this was the _most_ comfortable way to throw it.. using body torque and a bit of flex, rather than pure upper body muscle.

[Ogedei]

And if you had your sword leg forward and threw the flat snap would you rotate both feet as you describe in the above for the offside recovery?

Like I say, I do rotate, I just maintain a stable foot position. I may even have the ability to press into the ground with my feet (not something I do conciously), but in a controlled environment like that, they don't come off.

I told him it was different than what I did, but that I didn't think it was "wrong", just different and I thought I would look into it.

[Theron]

Is it possible that he's doing it because he's throwing the shot slow (so over exaggerating the movements to feel what it's like)? Does he do it when he throws the shot at speed?

[Maeryk]

And if you had your sword leg forward and threw the flat snap would you rotate both feet as you describe in the above for the offside recovery?

Like I say, I do rotate, I just maintain a stable foot position. I may even have the ability to press into the ground with my feet (not something I do conciously), but in a controlled environment like that, they don't come off.

I told him it was different than what I did, but that I didn't think it was "wrong", just different and I thought I would look into it.

Yeay.. for combos I look like I'm doing a ball chain slide in a line dance.. I suspect he's putting lot more hip into it than you do.. watch his upper body, does he bend to one side or the other when he throws it?

[Ogedei]

I feel that is unlikely. We did no work at speed. This was the first time with a stick in his hand...and the pel at practice isn't really designed for full speed. I can knock it over pretty easy.

[CiaranBlackrune]

I feel that is unlikely. We did no work at speed. This was the first time with a stick in his hand...and the pel at practice isn't really designed for full speed. I can knock it over pretty easy.

Give it time. Try placing weight on his feet or having a third person hold his feet down as he throws. Odds are he is exaggerating the movements and over rotating. Remember that for many people when they first start fighting, swinging the sword correctly will feel odd.

[Ogedei]

He didn't look bad. I've seen a lot... A LOT worse snaps on day 1.

I suspect I agree with the over rotation. It was a thought I had when I was typing in the first email. But more opinions are better!

[Robert of Canterbury]

The usual culprits are;

reaching for range, Brings the heel up
-Bring him a little closer to the pell.

Stance to deep, ie Back foot too far back, heel has to come up to allow the hip to travel
-Bring feet closer together

getting him to drop his stance a little may also help. A bit more flex in the knees allows more motion in the hip allows the heel to plant and drive power all through the chain.

Also, remember to keep his hip moving all through the snap, stopping simultaneously with all the other body parts when the blow lands.

[Count Johnathan]

Actually the heal of his back foot should come up when he throws a flat snap. A slight push with the ball of the foot produces power generated all the way from the ground up through his leg, hips, torso, arm and into the wrist.

What you are describing sounds normal and correct. I can't attest for his sword placement or upper body mechanics but the foot movement sounds right.

In a sword foot forward stance this does not occur as the power is being generated buy the torso being twisted like a coiled spring and the sword side foot remains planted throughout the shot delivery.

[Dauyd]

Has he had previous martial arts training? Many of their systems teach to pivot on the rear foot to put more power in the blows.

[Ogedei]

I appreciate that concept Your Excellency.

I have been looking for a photo that describes the extent to which he is doing it. It might not be quite this much, but it is probably close. Maybe this much, but remaining on the balls of his feet.

[Ogedei]

Has he had previous martial arts training? Many of their systems teach to pivot on the rear foot to put more power in the blows.

Yes. This is where he learned it.

[Count Johnathan]

For foot placement with the sword foot back he should be standing in this sort of position and foot pivot and toe push is correct when throwing a flat snap.

[Maeryk]

Has he had previous martial arts training? Many of their systems teach to pivot on the rear foot to put more power in the blows.

Or dancing? That's where I learned to do it.. its the same basic move as a throw..

[Corby de la Flamme]

This is an extremely common error for people who learning to throw blows with the sword foot back (which is right and proper, of course!)

The simplest way to correct it is to also correct another error: Anyone rising up on the ball of their sword foot is, I guarantee, not bending their knees enough! Likely, he also has weight on his front foot, or is starting evenly balanced and shifting weight onto his forward foot as the blow begins. Which is another, extremely common error.

[Corby de la Flamme]

More: Duke Gyrth describes it better than anyone, at least in text.

This quote of His Grace's has always been a favorite:

Most of us find it hard to stand still with bent knees . . . and harder still to move and keep the knees bent. This form of leg strength is something the beginning fighter often lacks. This form of leg strength is something advanced fighters often lack. It does come with practice, though.

[Count Johnathan]

It's not an error so long as he maintains his balance.

[Count Johnathan]

Just to make people aware, different techniques are just that, different. This does not mean better or worse exactly as different people have different body mechanics so different things will work for some and not for others.

Help him find what works best for him and his body type. As long as his motion is smooth and he is able to maintain good balance while getting the weapon from point A to point B with the proper placement and good power he is doing it right.

[Sean Powell]

I'm gonna agree with Count Johnathan (and that doesn't happen very often) It's a different technique and not a bad one. I've seen it used by top level fighters and I've seen it not used by top level fighters. By and large the rotation will give the hip a little extra travel forward which isn't necessary if he fights more 'squared off' and can be very necessary if he is in a more linear stance. It will utilize the calf muscles as part of the power system which can be powerful if you have decent calf muscles. It can't be done in grass while wearing cleats. It will almost always happen in grass while wearing turn-shoes.

Personally I'm over-weight, wear more then average weight armor and tend to fight staticly. I push through my heel to the ground with my flipper-feet there is measure ballance and stability but not give power. Staying on the balls of my feet kills my endurance. My knight fights almost exclusivly on the balls of his feet and rotates with every shot. Snapping the rear heal back down for the second off-side shot helps deliver a LOT of power (at least when he does it to me).

By and large I see it used more by more mobile fighters then the ground-pounders... but getting a mobile fighter to just throw a flat-snap where they arn't propelling themselves in one direction or another with a step is a rarity so who can really say.

IMHO: So long as he isn't OVER-rotating he should be good. If his big-toe and ball of foot are still down and he hasn't rolled over his toes or put all is weight on the pinky side, it's good. If at impact the ball of his foot, ankle joint, knee join and hip are in the same plane, it's good. If he OVER does it, reaching or flipping and dragging his foot then he's not doing it well.

Try this as the follow up: Onside flat-snap where heal comes up. Draw hand back to left side of face, palm up (holding the soup bowl). Drive the rear heal downward so foot points almost perpendicular to your opponent. Simultaneously rotate hips back, flip the bowl of soup down and just before impact punch forward above your opponents shield (you can go so far as to punch towards a target 2 feet above your opponents head and put your tip into his grill or sword-side arm-pit.)

Now do it without the heal-snap. You should find yourself able to generate more hip and leg power with the heal up and down method. I can do so against the pell although I rarely get to in combat.

Luck!
Sean

[Ogedei]

Thanks to all the feedback.

I guess going forward strangely most of what I had thought is pretty much confirmed.

A) It may work for him.
B) Make sure he can still move
C) Make sure his weight isn't transferring excessively to the front foot.
D) I'm not god, just cause I don't do it doesn't make it wrong.

[Maeryk]

Thanks to all the feedback.

I guess going forward strangely most of what I had thought is pretty much confirmed.

A) It may work for him.
B) Make sure he can still move
C) Make sure his weight isn't transferring excessively to the front foot.
D) I'm not god, just cause I don't do it doesn't make it wrong.

yup. A _lot_ of us in our relatively small group used to fight that way.. (though more horse stance than Count John's illustration), and we got one guy who did it like __you__ do it, and threw just as hard and good as any of us.. it's just a difference in body mechanics.

[Count Johnathan]

my pic was more for alignment purposes not an illustration for proper stance but for decent foot placement only.

[paulb]

Ogedai,

I prefer that the back heel not come off the ground when throwing a snap. I feel that it creates a commitment forward and rotationally that is not, or should not be intended. This over commitment can pull you out of position, slow down the return of your sword, and impede your movement to your next position.

Rotating on the back foot and letting the heel rise is a technique taught by some schools of Karate. My feeling is that it can work when doing empty-handed techniques, but tends to cause over-rotation when using heavy weapons.

I would think that there are several probable causes of this happening to your new fighter:

1. He is using his upper body too much in supplying power.

2. He is swinging through, not to the target.

3. He is not bending his front knee when he is swinging. This does not allow him to move his lower body forward during the swing, and accentuates the use of the upper body, and the swing through.

4. If his feet are too much in line, it becomes difficult not to let the back heel rise, and it also encourages over-use of the upper body.

I prefer that the line towards your opponent pass to the sword side of the front foot, and to the shield side of the back foot. This allows for a greater range of movement of the hips. Having the feet in line comes from modern fencing. It amazes me that it still persists in our fighting.

Regards,

[Count Johnathan]

What benefit is ther to swinging "to the target" rather than swinging through the target your grace? This is contrary to everything I have ever known about power generation.

I do not understand.

[Balin50]

Swing through Target.

[paulb]

Your Excellency,

Swinging “to” the target – to just inside the surface, allows the sword to be used more like a whip, focusing the strike to a very brief instant of time. In this way, the power is transferred to the target over a minimal amount of time, and the acceleration of the target is maximized.

Swinging “through” the target lengthens the time of contact, and the power is transferred over a longer amount of time, reducing the acceleration. This becomes more of a push, albeit a fast one.

Also, there are the effects of the over-commitment, as I mentioned in my previous post.

Regards,

[AwP]

I agree with Count Johnathan. Without seeing it myself, it sounds like he's actually generating power more efficiently than you are, it might be that he NEEDS to due to being smaller or weaker than you. I also don't understand how swinging through the target is a bad thing, In the small amount of dabbling in martial arts I've done, it's usually encouraged to aim past the surface.

[AwP]

Bah, 2 people posted while I was typing and I can't edit in this forum... Ok, I see what you're saying Duke Paul, I can see how that can be advantageous in the sport we play, but it also seems like gaming to me since in a real sword fight you won't kill anyone by just breaking the skin.

[paulb]

How far past the surface are you encouraged to aim?

It's not that I don't aim past the surface. I aim an inch or two in. However, if the target is not there when my blade arrives, it will effectively stop, unless I choose to let it move past into the return. The sword strike is thrown more like a punch than a swing.

The main power generation in my method of swinging occurs during the initial part of the swing, so most of the energy is there on initial contact. I do not continue to apply power after contact.

I design all of my techniques so that they can be used effectively by fighters who are on the low end of size and strength. I doubt if this applies to his Excellency.

Again, there are also the other considerations that I mentioned.

Regards,

[Maeryk]

Bah, 2 people posted while I was typing and I can't edit in this forum... Ok, I see what you're saying Duke Paul, I can see how that can be advantageous in the sport we play, but it also seems like gaming to me since in a real sword fight you won't kill anyone by just breaking the skin.

Uhh.. in a real sword fight it wont kill with the shots we throw, anyway. a sword? THROUGH a helmet? Really?

The point is, our "game" means we have to transfer impact directly to the other guy in such a way that he goes "good". A good sharp SNAP is just as effective to do that as moving him halfway over.. and in some cases, more effective.

Maximum transference in shortest time.

[paulb]

My technique is designed to break what it hits. You break something by accelerating part of it faster than it can rebound to it's original position. The "least time" application of power is what does this.

It's like the difference between breaking a persons jaw or knocking his head back. The same amount of power is delivered, but the one in which the energy is transferred more quickly does the most damage.

Regards,

[audax]

I cannot throw a shot worth a damn and remain mobile without moving my heel. Trying to keep my heel down leads to flatfooted stance and another dead squire which I find boring as hell. Blame twenty years of karate if you like.

[AwP]

How far past the surface are you encouraged to aim?

It's not that I don't aim past the surface. I aim an inch or two in. However, if the target is not there when my blade arrives, it will effectively stop, unless I choose to let it move past into the return. The sword strike is thrown more like a punch than a swing.

The main power generation in my method of swinging occurs during the initial part of the swing, so most of the energy is there on initial contact. I do not continue to apply power after contact.

I design all of my techniques so that they can be used effectively by fighters who are on the low end of size and strength. I doubt if this applies to his Excellency.

Again, there are also the other considerations that I mentioned.

Regards,

The one that stands out in my memory is to aim for the spine, I forget which MA specifically teaches that, but I was able to notice a big difference when doing that unarmed.

Bah, 2 people posted while I was typing and I can't edit in this forum... Ok, I see what you're saying Duke Paul, I can see how that can be advantageous in the sport we play, but it also seems like gaming to me since in a real sword fight you won't kill anyone by just breaking the skin.

Uhh.. in a real sword fight it wont kill with the shots we throw, anyway. a sword? THROUGH a helmet? Really?

The point is, our "game" means we have to transfer impact directly to the other guy in such a way that he goes "good". A good sharp SNAP is just as effective to do that as moving him halfway over.. and in some cases, more effective.

Maximum transference in shortest time.

Fair enough, against a helm it wouldn't really make much difference, in general principle though it makes sense. Yes, I can see how it might work well for the game, but I'm of the school of trying to be as realistic as possible without the "bad realism". I look through the manuals, test cut with sharps, etc.