Comparing Metals Strength

[Ancient]

First - I know this has been debated hundreds of times.

Can anyone comment, or point me to a source or previous topic that compares the strength of stainless steel with carbon steel and possibly tempered carbon steel.

Specifically I am interested in gauge (thickness) and weight comparisons.

I will be ordering a full harness shortly. With all the excitement of "High Carbon Tempered Steel", I would like to compare the benefits (gains) of going with something like that, or with stainless. (Does the cost justify the benefit)

[Frederich Von Teufel]

::whew:: I hope you don't mind my simplifying the question a bit, so I don't have to bother with things that aren't applicable to armour re-creation (tensile strength, specific alloy composition, etc. If you are interested in that, pick up a copy of the "Metals Handbook" or "The Building Materials Evaluation Handbook".)

Now I'm going to assume that you are buying this harness for SCA combat recreation (or something similar.) For that usage, you have these things to consider. How much maintenance is required; how much does the finished peice weigh; how easy is it to dent; how much will it cost.

Carbon Steel: This is the most commonly used material for armour creation. It is the base-line by which all other armour is compared. It rusts easily; if it gets wet, it will rust, no question. One can give it rust-resistance by keeping it waxed and oiled, but you must be sure that maintenance is _always_ done, or you will be removing rust. Rust however, is period. It's actually much more common for armour to be rusty/oxide-coated, than for it to be bright and shiny. It is possible to get armour that is built heavily enough so it is pretty much dent-resistant, but it will be heavy (due to the fact that it will be built of thicker metal.)

Hardened Carbon Steel: This has all the drawbacks that normal carbon steel has, except it's harder and more springy. You can therefor build a peice out of thinner metal while keeping the same strength and dent-resistance. It will be more expensive than regular carbon steel due to the work required in heat-treating the metal. Expect a 50% increase in price. One other drawback to consider is that, if the peice does rust, you have less metal to start with and less metal to sand away. Too much rust removal may destroy your armour.

Stainless Steel: will not rust under normal conditions. Has the same benefits as hardened carbon steel in the category of strength, since the addition of chromium to the alloy makes the steel springier. In my experience, a peice made of stainless steel has the same strength/dent-resistance as a peice made from carbon steel 2 guages thicker (i.e. a 18 guage stainless elbow cop is equal to a 16 guage carbon steel elbow cop.) Stainless steel is more expensive as a material, and is harder to work, making it a finished peice usually 50% more expensive than regular carbon steel.

As to the weight/thickness differential between the three: that is negligble. It's all steel. 1 square foot of stainless weighs about the same as 1 square foot of carbon. It's only when you get into things like aluminum that there is a significant difference.


Frederich

[Sinric]

From the work that I've done it seems like Stainless Steel is about 20% more dent resistance then mild steel of the same thickness. The (water quenched) Heat treated 1050 carbon steel armour that I've make is about 100% more dent resistance then mild steel of the same thickness. I've just started working with oil quenching instead of water quenching and it seems that I will be able to get the increase in dent resistance up to at least 120%. However the cost increase for hardened high carbon steel is likely to be between double and triple the cost of mild steel armour. Please keep in mind that I don't make armour as a business and am not taking any orders.

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Craig Nadler
cwn@nh.ultranet.com http://www.eskimo.com/~cwn/

[This message has been edited by Sinric (edited 10-06-2000).]

[Lukas the Smelly]

The know all source is www.matweb.com you can find the specific density, tensile strength, brinell hardness, melting point, etc etc etc for just about any alloy of mild, stainless, titanium, plastic, berylium, etc etc etc.

[Ancient]

Thanks for the info guys. So if I have a suit made of 16 gauge stainless, it would have the same strength qualities of say ---
14 gauge mild steel?

Would this be considered strong enough for rattan and possibly live steel combat?

What about jousting?

Would I expect any denting from any of these activities?

[Noe]

A guy in our group is using a breast plate of dished 18ga. mild steel with rolled edges. He has to beat out some dents occasionally, but it is a great savings on the weight. If I were you, I'd get hardened 18ga. (a very period thickness) and enjoy wearing armor that is closer to the same weight as period armors.

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The defining characteristic of fanaticism is the inability to understand why everyone else is not a fanatic.

[Frederich Von Teufel]

Yes, yes, maybe, and almost definitely.

If you want something more specific, i.e. actual recommendations from us as to what you should get, then please do tell us what you are planning on doing with the harness. Is it just for costume? Are you going to be doing SCA combat? If so, what kingdom? Are you going to be doing live steel? Do you do jousting? What are you looking to spend on this harness in the first place?

We can generalize, but without something specific for us to go on from you, the generalizations may be way off.


Frederich

[white mountain armoury]

Glen, who posts here on occasion does full contact joisting, he wears an illusion suit made from stainless, i hate to speak on his behalf, but having spoken with him about it in the past it seems to hold up quite well.
It would also be fine for sca combat, like the others stated it wont rust from just looking at it like mild.
On the flip side i think polished stainless looks atificial when compared to carbon steels.
Mild would be the most affordable but would also need the most maintainance, if you went with an aerly transitional suit the used brigandine parts like vambraces cuisses and breast your rust maintainance, and in my humble oppinion armour from this period looks wonderful.
High carbon steel will cost the most, especially if it is polished, carbon steel needs to go through a heat treating process that will leave a black scale on the surface.
the removing of the scale, plus the polish added to the heat treating make for more expensive armour due in part to the extra steps and the higher cost of the steel which i believe is almost 4 times the cost of mild.
to help with the rust the scale can be left on, it looks quite sharp, and areas can be polished for contrast, look for black and white harnesses to get an idea.
ive only made 3 piece elbows and knees from high carbon so ill defer to sinric for more accurate information, but the weight savings is amazing.
good luck with your choice.

[Ancient]

Currently, I do not belong to the SCA or any others with the exceptions of Rapier practice.

I am looking to form a group (loosely clad) for fighting. The fighting would consist of generally wooden wasters or rattan for practice, and eventually progress into live steel utilizing Del Tin swords (no edge). The armor will consist of hauberks and Plate.

At this time, I have been accumulating the arms and armor (and padded clothing) that will be needed. This consist of an early 1300-1325 harness which is constructed with 16 gauge stainless (splinted arms, legs, gauntlets, coat of plates and 14 GA Helm) riveted and welded chain mail hauberks (1 each), gambensons (3), surcoats (2), shields (2) and swords (many) and other stuff. --- I damn near got enough stuff to fully suit up two guys (with the exception of a 2nd harness - which is coming).

As of yet, I still have not fought in any armor - so I don't know what the limitations are from personal experience. Because I need a 2nd harness to pretty much complete my set (and actually convince another human being to come play), I am looking to get one made.

I am looking into a the Burgudian Harness. I do appreciate the benefits of stainless (no rust), and I don't like my stainless polished (I prefer a satin finish). I am not one to obsess on historical accuracy of materials used - I feel if we got better, more durable - why not. And I do very much like a period look.

So what I really want to know is…Is 16 gauge stainless going to do it for me (with these combat parameters in mind) - should I go with 14 or will the extra weight kill me and the overall benefit not be worth it. The hardened steel - not many people do it, it is costly and more period - there is the possibility of plating, but I would think that it would eventually scratch off.

Once again - thank you for your responses, you all have been very informative

[Gundo]

Given what you describe, and assuming you don't want to beat out dents more than occasionally:

I'd go with, in stainless: 14ga helm; 16ga bevor; 16ga for all the cops [the main section] of knees, elbows and spaulders; 18ga for the lames associated with those cops; 16ga cuisses and tassets; 16ga plackart; 18ga for the rest of the body armor including the faulds; 18ga for the greaves, sabatons, and gauntlets.

This assumes that the armorer rolls the edges that would be rolled on a high-quality historical harness.

In hardened steel, you could swap 18ga for the 16ga above, and use 16 for the helm, and virtually never get a dent. You would need to maintain the harness to inhibit rust. I'd paint the inside [that's what I'm doing with the spring steel stuff I'm selling] and do a spray&wipe with turtle wax after each use.

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<B>Gundobad, Wise Ogre Armory
Wise Ogre Pic of the Day</B>

Nothing needs reforming so much as the habits of others - Mark Twain

A position worth taking, is worth defending.

[Frederich Von Teufel]

Gundo beat me to it. About the only thing I'd change is to drop the gauge of the elbow cops down to 18 ga stainless (and that's purely personal preference.) Everything else I'd leave the same.

Since this will mostly be for live-steel, and pseudo-SCA combat, these specifications will work fine.

As for dents, really don't worry about them too much. Remember that dents are an historically accurate thing to happen, and that the rare one that shows up will be more of a battle scar than an ugly blemish. There is one dent in my Low-gothic German breastplate that I refuse to knock out, even though it's been there for years. Every time I look at it, I'm brought back to the day I received it and am renewed with fond memories of old friends and sword-brothers.


Frederich

[This message has been edited by Frederich Von Teufel (edited 10-07-2000).]

[Dwarlock]

For live steel I'd go with the stainless, it'll chew up your swords less than hardened steel.

[Ancient]

Thanks once again guys - you have given me what I needed to know.

[JJ Shred]

"Turtle wax" eh,.. I've never tried that. I have 18 swords & people always freak because I never "oil" them. I keep them clean, and buff them with white rouge, which lasts longer than oil, which seems to collect fuzz and dirt and pits quickly.