Shishak -style helm with spade nasal?

[Wulfgar Davinsson]

I like Shishak style helms, and I personally find the spade nasal to be a convenient way to to cut down on the appearance of the bar grill on an SCA helm, without having to use a full face visor.

That said... for what period would such a helm be appropriate, if any?

[Konstantin the Red]

12th through 16th centuries, per one source.

shishak - 14th, and probably earlier -
One of the most widely used helmets, the shishak had high top in the form of a tube where the unit commander could insert a red pennon. The shishak could be covered, or fluted vertically or in a spiral. (Stamerov)
A conical helmet with a knob on top, called zischagge in the west. It was introduced from Turkey, but may have had a Hellenistic origin. It differed from the shelm and kolpak by having a very long pointed top (shish) ending in a sharp point. In some types, the section between the cylindrical lower ring and the spike was hemispherical and ribbed or fluted, while it was more conical in others. A barmitsa was frequently attached to the lower edge. (Sloan)
The shishak's shape was similar to the traditional onion-dome shape of Russian churches. It is formed from a rounded dome that, near the center, reverses its curve to rise sharply to a point. (Finkelshteyn)

From here.

Fourteenth through seventeenth if you believe the timeline here.

http://steppes.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=board21&action=display&thread=999

The point, if you stick closely to the historical model, would present you quite a problem in the SCA game: easy to hit, hard for you to tell if such a strike were aimed so as to direct the incoming at your actual skull: that has a very large target area for cuts from either side. Plus what your KM would say of such a pointiness and how far it passes through a legal eye-slot. Wouldn't want that kind of freak accident, right?

Did you not discover these refs by googling on "shishak helmet" as I did? Shishak by itself gets you lots of hits on a biblical pharaoh rather than reference to a pointy hard hat.

[Wulfgar Davinsson]

Agreed. The shishak is not suitable for SCA combat, unless modiifed to the point that it would no longer be a shishak.
I guess the direction I am leaning is a helm that hints at the shape and form of Kipchak helms (sans facemask, not a fan), Shishaks etc... straighter sides, more conical top... lower and more rounded than either of the above, so as not to pose a threat to anyone else. It IS just a game after all.

So, I suppose, in that respect... what does it matter if the spade nasal is appropriate, as I plan on playing fast and loose with the style anyways?

I've chased the period perfect thing before, and if I'm going to get back into this, I'm coming in a lot more casually... gonna tear apart my current kit, salvage the lamellae, and build myself a generic Turkic/Rus/Steppes-esque kit. Let the stones fly where they may. I've already paid my dues.

[Konstantin the Red]

How 'bout the less, er, CB-capable forms of Turkish turban helmets? Kept down to just kind of pointy, w/twin eye cutouts in the bottom edge -- of the visible skull? Or would an Ottoman hat like that be too removed from their steppes origin?

[Norman]

Period: I don't think I've seen the sliding nasal anytime prior to 14th cent (maybe even 15th)

Style: I think Shishak is a general type description which may even change with time.
There are many generaly Onion-dome-style shapes depending on the precise period and nationality.

I have certainly seen the Kipchak proto-Bascinet used in SCA realy with no compromise on shape.
Pretty sure Dmitry Shelomyanin uses one. Or used to - haven't heard from him in a while.

But if you're worried about it -- the "Turban helmet" does not have a point. it has an inverted tube into which one could set feathers or streamers.

Or you could go with the Yerihonka style -- essentialy the same as the European Zichage.
it has a low point often ending with a ball or a blunt or tube.
it also has backplates, cheek plates, is properly fitted with the sliding nasal you are looking for...
just add some unobtrusibe bars to the whole and you're "SCA ready"
For that matter - if you look into British Civil War munitions Zichages -- some have bar grills, just a wee too sparse for SCA.
You could start with a Brit Civil War helmet and move backwards aesthetic-wize to the origin.

[Hanko Kal]

A few armourers have done some of the Shishak style helms. The only one I know of that did one with the spade nasal was Mikael from Armstreet I think. I have a chainmail aventail to cut down on the profile of the bar grill for mine, so the aventail is attached at the second rod.

[Benedek]

Here's a few pics of something along the lines your looking for. It's kind of an amalgamation of a few different period helms.

I'm portraying a mid 15th cent Ottoman. Missing from those photo's are my stainless bazubands and the maille. I'm saving up for a riveted maille drape for the helm.









I don't have my material sources with me at this time but I think it's easily doable to have a "spade" if done right, especially with a maille drape. Here's a few pics of the inspiration for this one.



I think it would be awesome to make a wire frame or skull cap and cover it in maille and plates like this one suitable for SCA with a few minor adjustments.

[bernie]

Nice helm Benedek , who's it made by?

[Benedek]

http://www.shamrockarmoury.com/


Jackie is a pleasure to work with.

[Malek]

I think Sir Rodrigo's helm is styled like a Yerikhonka



He does have a dress helm that I think closely resembles the Shishak style, but not remotely usable for SCA combat.

[Sasha_Khan]

One problem I see in this thread is people disagreeing over terminology - and using various ethnic terms interchangeably, without regard to the item's actual ethnic origin.

Sir Rodrigo's helmet, being a prime example of an Ottoman helmet of the type the Turks refer to as a chichak - may be called something else entirely in Russian, or Polish, or Hungarian.

The same for the helmet that Benedek owns - it's a Turkish helmet.