What time frame might this helm cover

[bernie]

Anyone know what time frame this helm falls into? I'm shooting for circa 1350 transitional German, splint limbs with a CoP. I know the helm is not 100% historically accurate but it's what I have to work with. If not, what time and region would be correct for this helm.

Thanks in advance for any ideas or help you may be able to provide.



Bernie

[Fearghus Macildubh]

Effigies and Brasses dot com search. I didn't have a chance to look through all of the results, but there are a couple which show the knight with a greathelm. Most are obscured because it's a pillow or foot rest, but you may see a clear shot. I would widen your search parameters until you find what you are looking for. Your helm looks like a riff on the Pembridge helm. http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments ... &view=list

[ushumgal]

Like Eckhart said, it seems to be (loosely) based on the Pembridge great helm. The file name says "bascinet", but it is certianly a great helm and not a bascinet.

The proportions are somewhat off, but great helms with significantly rounded crown pieces seem to be generally mid to late 1300s (the Pembridge helm is ca. 1370 iirc). The lack of a nasal crossing the ocular is a rather later feature, though. Great helms were certainly used in Germany in the 1350s, so it should work for your kit. One thing to remember is that by 1350, great helms were beginning to be used primarily on the tournament field, while the bascinet became the war helmet par excellance. You may note that in most effigies from this time, the knight will wear a bascinet, but rest his head on a great helm like a pillow. There are depictions of great helms being worn in battle, but they are not so frequent. So when you have a chance, you may want to upgrade to a bascient.

For more general info on great helms (and their evolution over time), check out the myArmoury feature on great helms as well as this page on the evolution of great helms (though it generally focuses on 13th century and early 14th).

[bernie]

Thank you for the links they are most helpful. I may indeed upgrade to a bascinet after I do more research on the various face plate types.


Bernie

[Konstantin the Red]

Which maker built that helm?

[Wulfgar]

I am fairly certain that Clang made that helm

[bernie]

It's a Clang in 14 gauge stainless.

[Sir Digby Chicken-Caesar]

I thought that the early non visored bascinet(and camail) goes under the great helm, doesn't it?

[Kenwrec Wulfe]

I thought that the early non visored bascinet(and camail) goes under the great helm, doesn't it?

Correct.

[Galfrid atte grene]

I'm curious, what evidence is there for that practice?

[InsaneIrish]

I'm curious, what evidence is there for that practice?

Open faced Bascinet under a great helm?

TONS of effigies. Almost all have an open faced bascinet with camail on and many have a greathelm seated somewhere next to the body.

[Galfrid atte grene]

I'm curious, what evidence is there for that practice?

Open faced Bascinet under a great helm?

TONS of effigies. Almost all have an open faced bascinet with camail on and many have a greathelm seated somewhere next to the body.

Just because a greathelm is nearby on the monument doesn't mean it was worn in conjuction with the bascinet. Even in the 15th century, helms are placed on the monument when the subject is wearing a great bascinet, etc.

[RandallMoffett]

I agree with Galfrid, we just cannot be certain. The fact it shows up little in other art makes it even more complicated.

RPM

[sir nigel darby]

What about the great helms on effigies that show a suspension lining in them? Some of those helmets look like the suspension is too far up on the inside of the helmet for the ocularium to line up. Would a fair assumption be something else goes in between?

[Sir Digby Chicken-Caesar]

I'm curious, what evidence is there for that practice?

Open faced Bascinet under a great helm?

TONS of effigies. Almost all have an open faced bascinet with camail on and many have a greathelm seated somewhere next to the body.

Just because a greathelm is nearby on the monument doesn't mean it was worn in conjuction with the bascinet. Even in the 15th century, helms are placed on the monument when the subject is wearing a great bascinet, etc.

I agree with Galfrid, we just cannot be certain. The fact it shows up little in other art makes it even more complicated.RPM

Damn them for not making see through great helms and for their lack of cut away drawings

With the later 15thC/great bacinet effigies there is a chance that the practice of putting a great helm on the effigy has become a heraldic/ artistic practice?

[InsaneIrish]

I'm curious, what evidence is there for that practice?

Open faced Bascinet under a great helm?

TONS of effigies. Almost all have an open faced bascinet with camail on and many have a greathelm seated somewhere next to the body.

Just because a greathelm is nearby on the monument doesn't mean it was worn in conjuction with the bascinet. Even in the 15th century, helms are placed on the monument when the subject is wearing a great bascinet, etc.

Good question. I refer you to MyArmoury.com:

http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_spot_bascinet.html

http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_spot_ghelm.html

I know that is not a direct resource. But, their conclusions are pretty spot on.

[Mac]

I think that there is enough evidence in art that shows great helms worn over basinets that we can conclude that it was common, if not universal.

Here is Geoff Luttrell about to put his on.....



Mac

[Mac]

Likewise, many of the guys in this Lancelot manuscript are wearing great helms over basinets. (note the helms on the ground, beside their former owners)



Mac

[jarlragnar]

Likewise, many of the guys in this Lancelot manuscript are wearing great helms over basinets. (note the helms on the ground, beside their former owners)



Mac

There's one in particular showing a dude stealing a crown or something. The helm is hanging off his back by a strap.

[Tomburr]

Could it be possible that the great helm was worn for added protection when on horseback only? Is there any evidence that the bascinet was ever exposed for fighting on the ground?

[RandallMoffett]

Mac,

I think the Luttrel Psalter is likely one of the best evidences for this practice. I am not sure we can assume what is being worn under all these gents in the second picture but I agree it does show that those gents on the ground seem to be doing such but I'm not sure either way for the other gents in helms we can say.

We have many inventories for the 14th century and most, at least of those I have seen, do not list more than one helmet throughout the period for war or peace. One specific example is in the black princes register in the 1360s none of the men he outfits for a joust are listed as having both bascinets and healms, all but one simply given healms. I am more than willing to accept it as one of several common practices but as far as more/most common or universal, I do not see evidence of this. There are far to many examples of other systems of use with healms.

Digby,

The real issue is assuming that even f we cannot see inside the helmet that there is a helmet under the helm. See through helmets in the medieval period might not have worked well. This is one of the limitations of art. I never assume indirect evidence (thinking I can see through a drawn or sculpted helm) to trump direct evidence (inventories or other work showing something else).

RPM

[Mac]

Randall,

I agree, that we can never really be sure what is being worn under a helm in a work of art. On the other hand, I think it extremely likely that the other clones in green and pink, whom Lancelot has not yet defeated, are wearing the same thing as their deceased brethren.

Here is an incontrovertible example from the same manuscript, of the practice or wearing a helm over a small basinet.



I think it is important to note that in this manuscript, there are two distinct types of basinet represented. There are pointy ones which sometimes have visors, and there are round ones. The round ones are shown on the heads of men who also have helms, like Galahad (?) above, or the defeated guys.

I would also like to draw your attention to folios 14 and 18 of the same MS. I could not find them on the web, but I can scan my copy of the book if you don't have access to it.

Mac

Mac

[Mac]

I think that there is enough evidence in art that shows great helms worn over basinets that we can conclude that it was common, if not universal.


Mac

The above statement of mine is not as clear as I had hoped about my opinion on this subject. I have failed to write in a way which makes it impossible to misunderstand. It sounds as though I was arguing in favor of the universality of this practice. That was not my intention.

I do *not* think that the practice of wearing a basinet under a great helm was ever universal. I do think that there were times when it was common or even typical.

Mac

[RandallMoffett]

Mac,

Hey that MS illustration is great. Look how clear the attachment of the helm to the back of the armour is.

I agree that the system of wearing a helmet under the helm took place. Way too much evidence to confirm it. My feeling is there are likely at least three systems, perhaps four depending on how it is divided.

RPM

[Galfrid atte grene]

Very interesting discussion, thanks folks. By the way, you can view all the relevant images Français 343 of here: http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/ ... s-francais

[Konstantin the Red]

Galfrid, thanks very much for that link. I've been trying to find more about that MS for years, since taking a pencil and copying off several figures from the scene of Lancelot receiving that book, or swearing upon it or whatever he's doing, with Arthur and the Round Table all looking on.