Market survey : COP kit prototype

[polarbearforge]

In addition to lamellar plates, I've been considering adding a coat of plates kit based on one of the Wisby finds(type I). I know there are other patterns, and if there is sufficient interest, I would look at adding other styles.

Here's a picture of a test run. It's cut from 16g mild steel.


I'm trying to gauge interest in the kit, as well as interest in specific materials for the kit.

The options I'm looking for input on, are mild steel(16g, 18g, or 20g), galvanized steel (16g, 18g, or 20g), stainless steel(16g, 18g, or 20g) or aluminum(0.063, 0.080, or 0.090 inches thick).

Mild steel will rust, and would need to treated a little differently. This is the cheapest option.

Galvanized steel would have a zinc coating. The cost would be a little higher due to material costs. Due do the nature of laser cutting galvanized, there would also be a little dross(burr) on the bottom that would need to be removed before it was assembled.

Stainless steel would be a smooth cut and wouldn't rust. It would also be the most expensive option due to material costs. It would be the most durable of these materials.

Aluminum wouldn't rust. It would be cleanly cut. It would be more expensive than mild steel, but less than stainless steel. Each of the steels would have pretty much the same weight and the aluminum would be the lightest.

Is there any interest in a kit like this? Of the materials I've listed, what would be your top three choices?

To give an idea on cost, the 16g mild one in the picture would probably be about $60.

Jamie

[Tomburr]

Aluminum would be really nice.

What do you think the cost would be for that kit in aluminum?

[mattmaus]

I dig the lines on your prototype. They're subtle, but a notch or two better than par.

[Gethin]

I would suggest that, ideally, you would stock mild, stainless, and aluminum.Each is attractive to different needs: low cost, low maintenance, low weight.
I will be putting in an order when these are availible.
One thing to consider is a pattern for the shell. It would (in my opinion) make it very attractive as a starter kit.

[Ulric]

1. 18g stainless steel
2. aluminum (not sure on the the thickness.. probably .080 or .090 depends on durability vs weight)
3. 18g mild steel

[WendallVonDerEisenstein]

1) .063 alum
2) 18 g stainless
3) 18 g mild steel

I made a .063 alum COP with a 5-6 oz leather shell. It has seen 15 years of moderate SCA use and there is no wear or damage to any plates.

I think 16g steel makes too heavy of a COP.

If the wearer is going to put it over mail, then even 18g might be too much weight and protection for SCA.

[polarbearforge]

What do you think the cost would be for that kit in aluminum?

For 0.090 thick, probably close to $90.

I dig the lines on your prototype. They're subtle, but a notch or two better than par.

Thanks! But I can't really take that much credit for it. The lines are taken from this image.

I would suggest that, ideally, you would stock mild, stainless, and aluminum.Each is attractive to different needs: low cost, low maintenance, low weight.
I will be putting in an order when these are availible.
One thing to consider is a pattern for the shell. It would (in my opinion) make it very attractive as a starter kit.

Initially, if there is enough interest I plan to stock one or two materials, and add on if need be. I have considered patterns and plans. Once I have this going ahead as a full fledged product, I'll probably work on that.

I made a .063 alum COP with a 5-6 oz leather shell. It has seen 15 years of moderate SCA use and there is no wear or damage to any plates.

One of my test peoples will make one with this material. Have you had to hammer out dents through the years?

I think 16g steel makes too heavy of a COP.

I think so, too. I made this prototype from 16g because I had room left on a sheet and I had just finished the pattern. I also thought that it would make good loaner gear because of it's weight. I don't have it on hand to weigh, but I think this one weighed around 12 pounds.

Jamie

[Sergeant Marli]

I would be interested in stainless (but would settle for alum)

[Hamish Nisbet]

I would be interested in Aluminum.

[Swete]

well, mild should be fine for a COP as one can just paint it before installing it in the fabric cover to keep it from rusting.

[Gilebert]

I would be interested in a mild steel set..

[Eltz-Kempenich]

Jamie, I will come and find you at Warriors and Warlords and bring you my thoughts.

[polarbearforge]

Jamie, I will come and find you at Warriors and Warlords and bring you my thoughts.

I'd like to hear your input, but I won't be at WW this year. We're busy enough at work that I can't get the time off.

Jamie

[Adamo]

I think an 18 gauge mild or galvanized set would be really useful. I would prefer if the plates for the back more closely resembled the ones in the front and it closed on the sides though. I tend to prefer armor that I can easily get into and out of myself, plus it offers better spine coverage.

Adam

[Ciaran Gunn]

18g stainless or Aluminum 0.090 . I'd buy tyhe aluminum kit at $90

[polarbearforge]

I think an 18 gauge mild or galvanized set would be really useful.

18g mild/galvanized seems to be the most popular so far.

I would prefer if the plates for the back more closely resembled the ones in the front and it closed on the sides though. I tend to prefer armor that I can easily get into and out of myself, plus it offers better spine coverage.

Adam

The #22 style closes on the side. Style # 24 closes in the front. They have more plates, and will probably cost a bit more. If this style and a few other styles go well, I'll eventually add those as well. It's too soon to say for sure at this stage.

Jamie

[Tomburr]

Jamie,

I think it's safe to say that if you offered CoP kits for under $100 dollars in any useful metal, you'll most likely have fairly steady business from here alone.

[Duke Uther]

20g stainless or Aluminum 0.090 . I'd would buy the aluminum kit at $90.

I also would not mind waiting a week or so for it to be cut and shipped Fyi so ii could having the option I wanted. It is one of the things I love about your Lamellar

I would defiantly order from you as would many I know, Vers making my self. I would bet many would use metal over plastic if they could just order the plates. Although I would not use mild vers the other options.

Uther

[Richard Leviathan]

As someone who has been selling this same kit and making and wearing the complete kits for over a year now, I can tell you that the Aluminum in .090 is easy to work with, tough and weighs only around 9 lbs in a finished suit. It is not bad to run around in all day. I would avoid fabric in construction and stick with leather. My 18 gauge splinted stainless cuisses with a fraction of the metal that a coat of plates has are very very heavy. I would not want to wear a coat of plates out of 16 gauge steel, especially if you are old and out of shape. As for how well they sell I wish I was in in a 14th cent kingdom but alas I am surrounded by Vikings and Byzantines who wear chain or Polar Bear Forge lamellar plates.

Lord Richard Leviathan
www.leviathanmunitions.com
East Kingdom

[Grimkell the Dane]

I made this exact kit for myself in Aluminum and it's great. I second whomever mentioned it needing more spine coverage. I ended up adding a couple plates that run up the spine and cover the shoulder blades a bit. Doesn't change the look of it too much and after a good shot to my spine I am happy the trade the style for safety. You can keep the strapping style historic and be able to put it on and off yourself, just takes some practice.

[swansman]

Hey, I have one of your mild steel test pieces at a friends place. We are going to be putting it together this month and will let you guys know how it turns out. So far the only thing I can recommend is the leather pattern, but the plates look great. I will be painting them before I put them on the leather though. I was also wondering if I should you leather speed rivets or solid steel rivets.

[polarbearforge]

As someone who has been selling this same kit and making and wearing the complete kits for over a year now, I can tell you that the Aluminum in .090 is easy to work with, tough and weighs only around 9 lbs in a finished suit. It is not bad to run around in all day. I would avoid fabric in construction and stick with leather.

Thanks for the input! I had space on the 16g sheet, so I thought it would work well for prototypes. In my mind, it would also work well for loaner/beginner armour, since it would help motivate replacing the heavy armour with lighter armour...

As for how well they sell I wish I was in in a 14th cent kingdom but alas I am surrounded by Vikings and Byzantines who wear chain or Polar Bear Forge lamellar plates.

We're heavily populated with Vikings and Byzantines as well. There are enough, though, that I think it would help.

I made this exact kit for myself in Aluminum and it's great.

I've had a few emails and pm's that make aluminum one of the more popular choices.

I second whomever mentioned it needing more spine coverage. I ended up adding a couple plates that run up the spine and cover the shoulder blades a bit. Doesn't change the look of it too much and after a good shot to my spine I am happy the trade the style for safety. You can keep the strapping style historic and be able to put it on and off yourself, just takes some practice.

I haven't tried it myself, but could these existing plates be used(or maybe with one or two more for fillers) and instead of placing the opening at the back, make it close at the side? Might be something for my testers to try for me.....

Hey, I have one of your mild steel test pieces at a friends place. We are going to be putting it together this month and will let you guys know how it turns out. So far the only thing I can recommend is the leather pattern, but the plates look great. I will be painting them before I put them on the leather though. I was also wondering if I should you leather speed rivets or solid steel rivets.

I talked to him a little bit about it yesterday. Speedy rivets will be fine. Even if they don't work the greatest, this is still test run. I say paint them red, that way if the outside is ever damaged, it might like look you're bleeding.

Jamie

[Odd]

Hey Jamie.. you get my pm or emails?

Also, there is interest in the COP down here as well.

[Aryllyian]

Any chance for a Corrazina kit? Perhaps if there was enough interest?

[mattmaus]

I was also wondering if I should you leather speed rivets or solid steel rivets.

Speed rivets have their place, and in my opinion, this would be a good one for them.

Thing is, I don't care what you make your shell out of, the way this style armor works, it is going to wear.

Using speed rivets over a sturdier breed will give you some advantages. 1> You can hope that the rivet fails before the material get's totaly mangled. This won't happen with a 'real' rivet, it'll hang on for dear life and tear the hell out of the shell, rip right through it. 2> Speed rivets are hella easier to get out when you need to, and chances are good you will.

[polarbearforge]

Any chance for a Corrazina kit? Perhaps if there was enough interest?

There would have to be A LOT of interest. Otherwise I have never considered this before.

Speed rivets have their place, and in my opinion, this would be a good one for them.

Thanks for the feedback! I'll make sure to pass it along to my testers.

Jamie

[Thomas MacFinn]

How expensive would a 15th century brigandine be? I imagine evenly spaced precut rivet holes would be a godsend on a suit like this.

[polarbearforge]

How expensive would a 15th century brigandine be? I imagine evenly spaced precut rivet holes would be a godsend on a suit like this.

Unless I create a cad file, create a sheet layout, and then create the program, it's impossible to say. It's on my list of files to create if this (and subsequent versions) of the cop go well.

Jamie

[Vilhelm550]

I've had good success with 18 ga. galvenized steel Coats of Plate. I've build two of the defunct GAA Armouries CoP kits (18 Ga galvanized) and that material holds up well in a decent foundation. I would say stainless and aluminum are also good options. It's got great lines, and if I didn't have a set of your Lamellar, and a backup CoP already, I'd be on this.
I do have a question about the shoulder cops: are these going to be manufactured to be drilled and riveted/pointed to the foundation of the CoP, or might you be ofering them in different material with corresponding hinge plate (ala TOMAR; section on the Wisby armour, with spade-shaped shoulder cop and hinge plate). Perhaps already dished for an additional fee.
Not trying to complicate things, just curious....Newer fighters having access to kits like these would be awesome.

Keep up the great work, Jamie!

[Arrakis]

As a newer SCA fighter who built his first torso as a CoP just like this out of barrel plastic, this kit looks very nice. I would add a trio of upper-spine plates, like this:

... I can't find the pattern I used for my CoP that included a central spine plate ~3"x7" and two side plates for it ~3"x5" that underlapped it on either side to make it float. But, basically, that. It would get the kit the required spine protection and since you're selling it as a kit, if someone doesn't want the ahistorical spine plates, no big deal; they just don't install them.

18 ga. stainless or mid-weight aluminum sound most interesting to me.

[polarbearforge]

I've had good success with 18 ga. galvenized steel Coats of Plate. I've build two of the defunct GAA Armouries CoP kits (18 Ga galvanized) and that material holds up well in a decent foundation.

I encountered that kit in my research. It's part of what made me think this might be useful to people.

I do have a question about the shoulder cops: are these going to be manufactured to be drilled and riveted/pointed to the foundation of the CoP, or might you be ofering them in different material with corresponding hinge plate (ala TOMAR; section on the Wisby armour, with spade-shaped shoulder cop and hinge plate). Perhaps already dished for an additional fee.

I haven't determined that yet. I'm still verifying the pattern right now. Before I scaled it down, I think my original pattern would have fit an elephant! Once I have pattern a little further along, I'll concentrate on the shoulders and think about the spine plates. I'll dig out my TOMAR and take a look at that, too.

Jamie

[ChloetheEvenhardt]

Mild Steel, Stainless, Aluminum.

I would LOVE LOVE LOVE a set. My issue? The female form seems to be a bit more difficult to fit with a CoP than a male form. You figure out how to do it, and you've got a sale. Even if it isn't "formed" like a bra (actually, I'd prefer it wasn't), I'd be ALL over that.

P.S. ~ Love your work

[Albrechtthesilent]

The female form seems to be a bit more difficult to fit with a CoP than a male form.

Very true. Accomplishing good fit from a kit would be difficult as there are a lot more variables to consider. Not saying it can't be done with reasonable success. It seems like it'd take more effort than the spirit of a "kit" implies. If Jamie can't do it, try Cet. Winter Tree may be able to make a properly fitting, finished CoP as well.

Albrecht

[GuntherofOrkney]

personally from my experience i would use 18ga stainless,16ga mild and at least 0.80 alum. that would make these hold up to combat pretty good. i think this is a great idea,i like kits.

[Vilhelm550]

Oh, a coat-of-plates can be made to fit a woman! I made one for my wife that fits her quite well. Anatomical considerations applied properly, and it works. For hers I added darts into the arm open ign area of the foundation, and it gave the upper chest plates a little more outward shape and rgidity (She's got a healthy bosom, so it was important to provide comfort and protection, as always). I do have another one designed for her sister, also busty, who decided armored combat wasn't for her, but anyways, this one is designed with a heavy leather 'plate' to provide extra shape and interior space, and would be rivited internaly to the upper and lower steel plates.