SCA at an evolutionary cross-roads (A discussion)

[Dante di Pietro]

Every melee fighter I've ever met who doesn't also do combat archery, in Belegarth, Dagorhir, and the SCA HATES combat archery because it ACTIVELY undermines their fun on the field so some jerkoff can stand in the back and practice his target-plinkin'.

I like it. It doesn't undermine my fun. Since the fencing field had to deal with guns for a long time, we figured out that the way to handle projectiles is to 1) limit shot per person, and 2) only have them in resurrection battles. 10 shots in a 30 minute battle are tactically useful, but not overwhelming; I'll get way more than 1 kill every 3 minutes. I don't mind when people shoot at me because I move my head out of the way; arrows are easy to dodge because I can easily see them coming. Sometimes I bring a rotella.

What else is there? Are most of you NOT here to fight and get better at fighting?

If you're a brutal gangster on the field, other murderers will hear about you and seek you out, no?

People making snap judgments based on an award system they know is incredibly broken is not your problem... or is it?

There is a lot more to the SCA than fighting. If all I cared about was fighting, I'd join an WMA group like AEMMA or ARMA. Actually, the major selling point for me for the SCA over an WMA group like ARMA is all of the non-fighting stuff, just like the major selling point for the SCA over a LARP/boffer/etc. group is steel swords.

The award system is not "incredibly broken". It has advantages and disadvantages, most of which more or less balance out into something where 99% of people who have an award deserve it, and 99% of people who deserve an award have it. Exceptions do exist, but to act as if they are the norm is disingenuous.

Reputation alone is sufficient to possess influence, but reputation plus rank gives one greater reach than reputation alone. I'm not sure if this is something that one can fully appreciate without spending time on both sides of the line. I'm not interested in whether or not such a circumstance is "right" or "wrong", "good" or "bad", because it most certainly is.

[maxntropy]

Let me be more clear: awards exist, and because they do, your credibility and influence are directly linked to the awards you have. It's possible to develop a wide enough reputation so that your name recognition carries ahead of you, but that's not that easy to do. What generally happens instead is that people make quick and easy assumptions about you based on your awards because it's very simple to do so. It's fairly reliable as well, since it's a safe bet that a triple-peer probably has a good idea of how the organization works, for example.

I get a LOT more done as Dante-the-White-Scarf than I ever did as Dante-who-wins-a-bunch-of-tournaments. It's easier to be a leader and to exert influence, which in turn lets me encourage and excite people in the study of historical swordsmanship. In my own kingdom I'm moderately well-known, but at something like Pennsic, perhaps not. At Pennsic, because I wear some of my credentials on my arm, I don't have to go through the effort of proving my competence to others, which in turn allows me to spend my time on things that happen after that stage is reached, like teaching and learning.

That is entirely of our own creation with the increasing emphasis on awards (our courts have become nearly ENTIRELY about awards, with little interaction between the populace an royalty about anything else), and was NOT always the case.

If we've over-emphasized awards so that they become the symbol of worth and status, thus increasing our social stratification and hierarchy so that most now judge a book by its cover (regalia)... then we can likewise work to counter the trend by increasingly de-emphasizing them as the sum-total reason of our existence.

When it comes to leadership, the leading literature explains that there is positional authority (based on office and title) and personal authority (earned credibility and respect). Personal authority is more difficult and time-consuming. It requires setting an example through in action and words over time. Positional authority is instant -- state the right title or display the right regalia -- and one is instantly afforded the respect of that title or office. It is also, therefore, much cheaper (it is not, after all, directly yours... only that which comes from the halo of association to the office or title), and much easier to squander. I was also raised to consider the earned respect of personal authority as the only real means by which one can effect true change and engender true respect over anything but the briefest of timespans. Positional authority (the respect from offices and titles) may make the development of personal authority *easier* but providing an introductory platform based on a modicum of respect... but it can never *replace* personal authority as the true foundation for inspiration and leadership.

Perhaps I'm a bit biased based on the tradition in which I was raised, not to mention the fact that I have *no* positional authority (I've some non-Peerage type awards from a few Kingdoms... but I really try to underplay them and when it comes down to it, they are not really venues for authority in our game any longer), and since I lack any positional authority, I have always been forced to develop any and all respect I've had and any and all authority to lead change that I've had the hard way... through the example set over time through personal authority. Since I've actually managed to induce at least some small changes at various times and places through the years, I can assure any and all that positional authority is far from necessary to getting stuff done and fighting the good fight. You've just got to work harder and risk more.

But that's the way I see it.

Look forward to your disagreements, thoughts, and comments.

Max Von Halstern

[Giovanni_d'Alba]

As someone who's come from Atlanta, GA - an area that's had an extremely active LARP community and very little SCA activity in my experience - I wanted to point out some things the AA community might not realize.

First off, its should be noted that LARPs are very often doing a *better* job of creating stuff that looks like genuine medieval equipment than we do. Here's a "good" LARP sword these days:

http://www.by-the-sword.com/acatalog/fs007.jpg

You can argue about the "period" look, but there's little doubt that it looks a heck of a lot more like a sword than rattan does... or that the crafter could make something that did resemble period, if they wanted to.

With boffers, armor requirements go away. The need for sport armor goes away, too. Armour can be built strictly for "looks". Sometimes that leads to Renfaire monstrosities, but the same craft techniques that permit those monstrosities to be build would permit affordable period armor that could be worn at Pennsic without risking your health.

In short, technology's moved to the point where the combat sport of SCA heavy combat does not look like "actual" medieval combat anywhere near as much as a well-crafted LARP can. Heavy combat has its own virtues, and values, and lifestyle... but you don't have to hit someone hard to look like a knight anymore. Not by half. LARPs don't look like the "current middle ages" because they don't want to and don't have to. The absolutely could if they wanted to. An SCA that used latex weapons and lighter armor would look a whole lot more like what it - in theory - actually aspired to be.

Now, mind you, latex weapons don't handle anything remotely like a "real" sword. There's no weight to them. You can't parry effectively with something that bounces off your own blade and requires no recovery time. How much that matters to us in the Society is an open and relevant question.

But don't pat yourselves on the back too hard about looking more "realistic" than the LARPers. They can look just as good on the field as the average SCAdian - they have more technological options and play in a rules set that permit more realistic-looking stuff than heavy combat does. They simply choose not to, because it's not valuable to them.

Here's a mind-bender: what would a historically accurate LARP look like? Ditch the NERO and Amtgard rules - just think about the equipment, the resources, and the potential for a game set in a cosmopolitan section of the medieval world (Tunis come to the top of my head). What would it feel like to play a game where the swords looked like swords and you could be inside your persona's head for an *entire weekend*. Could that compete with your average SCA event for entertainment? I certainly think so.

[St. George]

But don't pat yourselves on the back too hard about looking more "realistic" than the LARPers. They can look just as good on the field as the average SCAdian - they have more technological options and play in a rules set that permit more realistic-looking stuff than heavy combat does. They simply choose not to, because it's not valuable to them.

Here's a mind-bender: what would a historically accurate LARP look like? Ditch the NERO and Amtgard rules - just think about the equipment, the resources, and the potential for a game set in a cosmopolitan section of the medieval world (Tunis come to the top of my head). What would it feel like to play a game where the swords looked like swords and you could be inside your persona's head for an *entire weekend*. Could that compete with your average SCA event for entertainment? I certainly think so.

I personally don't enjoy SCA persona play because the milieu is not set up for it. If I am from 900's wherever, I shouldn't be chatting with people from 1500's wherever. It's silly. On the other hand, if I want to LARP I'll make a persona/character and I can play in that world all weekend. That's just not what the SCA is about- anyone who says otherwise is wrong. To play in that world bringing non-contemporaneously associated cultures together would just make us another fantasy role play organization, which we are not.

What you bring up regarding ease of "looks" etc and the lighter weapons system is exactly why rapier is doing so well in the SCA. People can easily make a costume that looks great, and with less wear and tear, and certainly less fear, engage in a martial activity.

Rapier, therefore, already successfully fulfills the niche in the SCA that you describe.

g-

[Saritor]

...they have more technological options and play in a rules set that permit more realistic-looking stuff than heavy combat does. They simply choose not to, because it's not valuable to them.

Just a request for clarification on the part in bold above -- while the aforementioned rattan might not look the part, there's absolutely nothing that prevents one from having absolutely spot-on armor, and many of the rattan weapons can still be pushed toward having an accurate profile, if not an accurate appearance.

Then, of course, C&T, as it grows, will permit an even closer appearance.

I hadn't seen the swords, though -- those are pretty neat. The local Amtgard guys are still using the lower-tech stuff, and wearing tunics, jeans and sneakers mostly, so I hadn't seen anything that looked better.

[maxntropy]

First off, its should be noted that LARPs are very often doing a *better* job of creating stuff that looks like genuine medieval equipment than we do. Here's a "good" LARP sword these days:

Firstly, I've been doing this for some time now, and I'm pretty darn sure authentic appearance is not the primary objective the the vast panoply of folks involved in SCA martial combat (or, overall, the community, culture, and spirit of the game itself). I'm pretty sure that the primary objectives are some combination of the full-contact martial art of it along with the competitive sport of it. Remove the full-contact nature of what we do, and most of us wouldn't do it. Remove the competitive sport of what we do... same thing. It's not about dressing-up. It's about kicking ass. Dressing up in cool armour along the way is just a huge fringe benefit.

Secondly... that said, the armour and authentic "stuff" IS a component. But as Saritor states above, there is NOTHING preventing anyone from having rigorously authentic SCA kit (and many do... just go to the CotT at Pennsic) -- and some folks even go to great lengths to make their rattan swords more authentic (see, for example, Sir Vitus and the others on the Archive who do amazing art in this regards).

As Alaric stated, we already have a venue for folks who want more of the Cosplay (not saying it's Cosplay, per se... just that it's more costumey and dressy and fancified) and less of the full-contact kicking-ass but still want some of the martial art and competitive sport components... Fencing.

Which again, is getting back to the SCA as the "biggest tent" around -- if we choose to continue to embrace that aspect of our history and the attitudes and actions necessary therein. We don't have an era... we have them all. We don't have a region... we have them all. We don't have one martial art... we've got 'em all. Want to be a Romanesque kick-ass shieldman? Sure? Want to be a Renaissance Fencing Fop? No problem? Want to be a peasant siege engineer? Good to go. Want to hang-out drink all day and mock the idiots in the metal suits passing out in the heat? Got you covered.

That is, if we choose that direction. We CAN choose "small tent" and continue to get more exclusive and elite and inward-focused. Obviously, I hope not.

Max Von Halstern

[Giovanni_d'Alba]

You can get spot-on armor in the SCA. But the expense can be prohibitive, and the weight is dangerous in come circumstances (full plate at Pennsic is going to *hurt*.) And that same weight can also mean you're at a disadvantage against a guy in sport armor and a tunic. I'll have to hunt for good pics of "good" LARP armor - this is where things can fantastical, so I need to pick and choose. But with boffers, you can wear chain maille without having to add steel for protection, and you don't need grille bars on your helmet. (Of course, most boffer rules don't permit headshots... but targets below the knees are legal.)

[maxntropy]

You can get spot-on armor in the SCA. But the expense can be prohibitive, and the weight is dangerous in come circumstances (full plate at Pennsic is going to *hurt*.) And that same weight can also mean you're at a disadvantage against a guy in sport armor and a tunic. I'll have to hunt for good pics of "good" LARP armor - this is where things can fantastical, so I need to pick and choose. But with boffers, you can wear chain maille without having to add steel for protection, and you don't need grille bars on your helmet. (Of course, most boffer rules don't permit headshots... but targets below the knees are legal.)

Giovanni:

I don't know your background, but I think you've got some faulty assumptions. SCA fighters develop over time (years) -- and our skill and kit evolve as we develop. As a full-contact martial art, almost NOBODY leaps full-formed on the field (like Athena out of Zeus' head) as a fully-armoured late-period Knight and expects to be able to fight. Our armour, as with our skill, evolves. As a result, higher-end kits are pieced together over years. Almost everybody starts out with less expensive pieces and evolves -- over years -- to fancier and more expensive pieces. Consequently, the expense is not prohibitive, because it is spread over years.

A well-armoured fighter in full, well-fit late-period kit is simply not any more dangerous (as you suggest) than somebody in lighter-weight gear. Proper armour is well balanced and we PRACTICE in our armour, so we are quite familiar with what we can and can't do. Many folks have fancier kit for tourney and a lighter-weight kit for melee -- since we are often in heraldic surcoats and the like when in melee, anyway.

If somebody DOES want to pop full-blown on the field in top-shelf kit, with little or no training or experience, and have folks think the clothes make the man... then as you suggest, there are places for that.

In my experience, the SCA isn't one of them.

If you want to look like a supreme badass on the field... but lack the skill, talent, and training to back-up the threat implied by your kit... then you're gonna be a very unhappy well-armoured individual.

SCA combat is a character-revealing activity. You are what you have done and what you have accomplished -- and are weighed and measured therein. We do not tend to give credit where credit isn't due for a nice pair of threads.

Just my humble $.02 -- for whatever it's worth to you.

Max Von Halstern

[Effingham]

As someone who's come from Atlanta, GA - an area that's had an extremely active LARP community and very little SCA activity in my experience - I wanted to point out some things the AA community might not realize.

I can't speak to your experience, but I have trouble believing that there's little SCA stuff going on in the Barony of the South Downs -- one of the biggest and most active groups in southern Meridies.

[Arrakis]

I hadn't seen the swords, though -- those are pretty neat. The local Amtgard guys are still using the lower-tech stuff, and wearing tunics, jeans and sneakers mostly, so I hadn't seen anything that looked better.

Those kinds of latex swords are illegal in all contact LARPs because LARPs don't require eye protection and those points are NOT safe for eyes.

This is the cutting edge of appearance in Foamfighting:


A How-To with lots of pics:
http://www.dagorhir.com/forums/index.php?topic=15445.0

[JvR]

If you want to look like a supreme badass on the field... but lack the skill, talent, and training to back-up the threat implied by your kit... then you're gonna be a very unhappy well-armoured individual.

What if you don't plan on winning anything and don't mind getting killed a lot? I figured I will never play enough to get good but I still wanted a decent looking kit.

I heard my kit is pretty nice. Not "supreme badass" but still nice. If I showed up as a new fighter in a good looking kit, what do older more experienced fighters think? I dont want to be a dick.

[Kilkenny]

PS: CA? Who joins a game of knightly foot-combat to shoot people with a bow??? Go play paintball, damn it, and let us get back to whacking each other!

There, in microcosm, is the absolute heart of the SCA's problems.

People respond to another person's area of interest by telling them to go play somewhere else.

Whatever you're doing doesn't match my personal vision of what the activity should be therefore you should leave.

It's one thing when what a person is doing is obviously outside the bounds of the game OBVIOUSLY outside, like shooting people with paintball guns on the SCA melee field. That doesn't belong, don't do it here, go back to the paintball field. Or - stop doing that and start playing our game.

It's something else entirely when the person is doing something within the SCA's rules, but not according to my personal preference. When we start telling other people who are playing by rules of the game to go play somewhere else - because we don't like what they like - that is Actively Killing Our Game.

The problem is that CA should never have made it into the rules. Why in hell would a bunch of melee combatants agree to be turned into pincushions by nuclear arrows all damn day instead of enjoying their fighting?

Why? I just can't see the logic At All. Every melee fighter I've ever met who doesn't also do combat archery, in Belegarth, Dagorhir, and the SCA HATES combat archery because it ACTIVELY undermines their fun on the field so some jerkoff can stand in the back and practice his target-plinkin'. Yeah, woohoo, I guess that one jerkoff gets to feel like a god or a wizard just finger-of-death-ing folks with his ultra-armor-piercing-super-instant-death arrows, but it sucks for every single person he blindsides.

Coming from games with literally no award structure, this has been the most confounding part of Amtgard and SCA to me. Who cares what some other person hangs off the back of your name in a game that's mostly about hitting people with sticks? As long as the people you like know you're good at something, isn't that plenty?

Well, no, it's not plenty if you have any desire to accomplish anything other than being good at whatever it is you do.

What else is there? Are most of you NOT here to fight and get better at fighting?

If you're a brutal gangster on the field, other murderers will hear about you and seek you out, no?

People making snap judgments based on an award system they know is incredibly broken is not your problem... or is it?

You have no clue and really ought to stop writing and start seriously reading. Really. You don't understand enough of what the SCA is about and you are not prepared to contribute positively here.

What you are able to do is provide a poster-child for some of our failures as an organization when it comes to properly introducing people to what it is we do and getting them socialized in the SCA culture.

As far as I know, we have not met in person. You may not even know me by reputation. But you might think about using the titles that people have as signposts to inform you a bit about them. It's useful.

My titles won't tell you that I'm a much better melee fighter than I am singles, but they will tell you I'm good enough at singles to have a knighthood and a duchy.

As to never meeting melee fighters who don't hate CA - it might be because you are loud about hating it and people don't want to get into the pig slop with you arguing about it.

Look, if all you're really looking for is someplace to be a badass - - please don't try to use the SCA for it.

"brutal gangster"?? Sorry, wrong place, wrong time, wrong everything.

[Arrakis]

You have no clue and really ought to stop writing and start seriously reading. Really. You don't understand enough of what the SCA is about and you are not prepared to contribute positively here.

What you are able to do is provide a poster-child for some of our failures as an organization when it comes to properly introducing people to what it is we do and getting them socialized in the SCA culture.

As far as I know, we have not met in person. You may not even know me by reputation. But you might think about using the titles that people have as signposts to inform you a bit about them. It's useful.

My titles won't tell you that I'm a much better melee fighter than I am singles, but they will tell you I'm good enough at singles to have a knighthood and a duchy.

As to never meeting melee fighters who don't hate CA - it might be because you are loud about hating it and people don't want to get into the pig slop with you arguing about it.

Look, if all you're really looking for is someplace to be a badass - - please don't try to use the SCA for it.

"brutal gangster"?? Sorry, wrong place, wrong time, wrong everything.

Hah, okay, big pants. No, I don't know who you are. I don't particularly care. I'm new to the SCA and literally all I want to do is hit people with sticks. Every time I've talked to an SCA fighter about the fact that I play Dag and Bel and Amt I hear "Oh, well that's cool, but if you want to REALLY fight and have REAL fun you need to come play SCA!" so I'm trying to. No one is making it easy on me.

And I do know, from the other games I play, that I don't care for being shot at while trying to fight someone. Pardon me for extrapolating that I wouldn't enjoy it in SCA, either. I've discussed CA with some fighters I've met at practices up here in the East and no, they weren't positive about it, because, I guess they probably don't really dig getting shot either.

Sorry for using terminology you associate with us "whippersnappers" or whatever, too; I didn't think that would be so offensive to your sensibilities, considering that I sort of presumed that I was talking about hitting people with sticks with other people who like to HIT people WITH STICKS.


I'm really sorry that me asking questions and trying to get verification or falsification for the impressions I've been given of the SCA so far bothers you so much. Maybe you should address the questions so I can shut up.


PS: I don't think one way or another about the awards system being flawed or whatever; I'm literally going off of what I'm reading IN THIS THREAD. And no, I don't tie my entire judgment of a person to their titles in any walk of life, but I do, of course, consider them. Who doesn't?

[Kilkenny]

But I DO know how the SCA operates.
It operates without soliciting input from it's paying members on a large scale, thorough manner.
It operates with polling it's paying members.
It grants mostly subjective awards causing quite a bit of unseemly butt kissing that makes me cringe.
It fails to use even the most basic modern convenience like youtube to educate newcomers about how to get into gear.
etc.

No, you don't know. You have your perceptions, but they are, clearly, insufficiently informed and apparently resistant to becoming more informed.

You do realize that you have told us (the readers here, including numerous very long term members, many of whom have quite a number of awards from the SCA) that you hang out with your friends giving us the finger for having our awards, right?

You think that you are telling us something we don't know - because you don't know enough to know better.

For those who were watching all along, and perhaps for some who think that victims have been blamed, I give you the newsflash offered by Shinyhalo, that new members sit around giving long term members the finger for having been recognized for their work.

On any issue, there will always be jerks on every side of the issue.

[Kilkenny]

You have no clue and really ought to stop writing and start seriously reading. Really. You don't understand enough of what the SCA is about and you are not prepared to contribute positively here.

What you are able to do is provide a poster-child for some of our failures as an organization when it comes to properly introducing people to what it is we do and getting them socialized in the SCA culture.

As far as I know, we have not met in person. You may not even know me by reputation. But you might think about using the titles that people have as signposts to inform you a bit about them. It's useful.

My titles won't tell you that I'm a much better melee fighter than I am singles, but they will tell you I'm good enough at singles to have a knighthood and a duchy.

As to never meeting melee fighters who don't hate CA - it might be because you are loud about hating it and people don't want to get into the pig slop with you arguing about it.

Look, if all you're really looking for is someplace to be a badass - - please don't try to use the SCA for it.

"brutal gangster"?? Sorry, wrong place, wrong time, wrong everything.

Hah, okay, big pants. No, I don't know who you are. I don't particularly care. I'm new to the SCA and literally all I want to do is hit people with sticks. Every time I've talked to an SCA fighter about the fact that I play Dag and Bel and Amt I hear "Oh, well that's cool, but if you want to REALLY fight and have REAL fun you need to come play SCA!" so I'm trying to. No one is making it easy on me.

And I do know, from the other games I play, that I don't care for being shot at while trying to fight someone. Pardon me for extrapolating that I wouldn't enjoy it in SCA, either. I've discussed CA with some fighters I've met at practices up here in the East and no, they weren't positive about it, because, I guess they probably don't really dig getting shot either.

Sorry for using terminology you associate with us "whippersnappers" or whatever, too; I didn't think that would be so offensive to your sensibilities, considering that I sort of presumed that I was talking about hitting people with sticks with other people who like to HIT people WITH STICKS.


I'm really sorry that me asking questions and trying to get verification or falsification for the impressions I've been given of the SCA so far bothers you so much. Maybe you should address the questions so I can shut up.


PS: I don't think one way or another about the awards system being flawed or whatever; I'm literally going off of what I'm reading IN THIS THREAD. And no, I don't tie my entire judgment of a person to their titles in any walk of life, but I do, of course, consider them. Who doesn't?

mm. I'm sorry you don't have the good sense not to be rude and insulting to people you don't know.

You would find much better reactions from people if you were not.

This really is the wrong thread for this discussion. Perhaps if you would read the CA threads, you might find that opinion on that issue is highly polarized and strongly divided. That might help you develop some understanding that there are multiple perspectives on that subject, among people who do like to hit one another with sticks.

It's also well worth noting that while this thread is in the combat and fighting forum, the organization that is being discussed is much, much more than a place where people hit each other with sticks.

Understanding that is critical to every aspect of the actual subject of this thread.

And please, stop waving your dick around. It's not making the impression you would like it to make.

[Arrakis]

I believe you have adequately illustrated the very problem that is at the root of this thread.

Thanks.

[audax]

Which is what, in your analysis?

[Kilkenny]

People respond to another person's area of interest by telling them to go play somewhere else.

Whatever you're doing doesn't match my personal vision of what the activity should be therefore you should leave.

Your Grace,

I have unformed thoughts about that personal vision screwing about with people's methodology of self-improvement, and that's why people get all punched in the nuts and shouty about leaving. "I'M TRYING TO MAKE MYSELF BETTER, STOP SCREWING WITH THAT!"

What some people need to do is stop shouting long enough to hear that the other guy is saying the exact same thing

But, on the big picture front, nothing hurts the SCA as much as the divisions within its ranks, with people picking their personal ground on all sorts of different issues and instead of putting their energy into doing the things they love, wasting it fighting with others for not loving the same things.

[Kilkenny]

I believe you have adequately illustrated the very problem that is at the root of this thread.

Thanks.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that with help from a couple of unwitting volunteers, I have done just exactly that.

[Kilkenny]

An SCA that used latex weapons and lighter armor would look a whole lot more like what it - in theory - actually aspired to be.

Using latex swords and "armour look" costumes would be nothing like what the SCA combat I participate in actually aspires to be. Precisely because it would be all about appearance and not at all about the experience our predecessors went through.

I'm a very long way from being alone on this one. A major part of the purpose of doing the fighting is to try to connect with the life experience of warriors 500-1000 years ago. An experience that involved sweat and effort and pain. Without those elements, you can't think of getting inside their heads, even a little bit, for a moment.

With phony armour, you lose all the people recreating the craft of the armourer. Not the modern plastic molder - plenty of that around today. The people like Robert MacPherson who are re-discovering elements of a complicated and far-ranging science that has been pretty completely lost in the 21st century, outside of crazy groups of medievalists

And again, there's a fundamental premise failure. The SCA's goal isn't to look like a medieval society, but to learn about medieval society. Using a bunch of modern technology to produce lookalikes generally doesn't get you very far in learning how it was really done.

[Kilkenny]

You can get spot-on armor in the SCA. But the expense can be prohibitive, and the weight is dangerous in come circumstances (full plate at Pennsic is going to *hurt*.) And that same weight can also mean you're at a disadvantage against a guy in sport armor and a tunic. I'll have to hunt for good pics of "good" LARP armor - this is where things can fantastical, so I need to pick and choose. But with boffers, you can wear chain maille without having to add steel for protection, and you don't need grille bars on your helmet. (Of course, most boffer rules don't permit headshots... but targets below the knees are legal.)

But - here you are suggesting that Baseball would be more popular, so you should change your rules so you're playing baseball, to a stadium full of football fans.

This isn't a big-tent sort of suggestion. This is a fundamentally change your game suggestion. And you're suggesting we change it to be more like things that already exist, where people can already go if that is what they want to do.

You're here on an Armour forum, a place that selects for people who actually do want to get out there in historically accurate gear, suggesting that they should stop all that wasted effort and do something ever so much easier.

It might be worth considering that the people who choose to go out and fight in full plate (or chain, for that matter) at Pennsic, are doing exactly what it is that they want to do and have spent a ton of money, time and effort to be able to do so.

Taking that away from them isn't doing them any favors.

[Kilkenny]

If you want to look like a supreme badass on the field... but lack the skill, talent, and training to back-up the threat implied by your kit... then you're gonna be a very unhappy well-armoured individual.

What if you don't plan on winning anything and don't mind getting killed a lot? I figured I will never play enough to get good but I still wanted a decent looking kit.

I heard my kit is pretty nice. Not "supreme badass" but still nice. If I showed up as a new fighter in a good looking kit, what do older more experienced fighters think? I dont want to be a dick.

Most of us would think "who's that guy and where is he from?" So we would talk to you and discover that you were new, but had taken the time and effort to put together a decent kit. That you did that would make a positive impression. What you did in it would tell us whether or not you were "a live one".

[Giovanni_d'Alba]

I hadn't seen the swords, though -- those are pretty neat. The local Amtgard guys are still using the lower-tech stuff, and wearing tunics, jeans and sneakers mostly, so I hadn't seen anything that looked better.

Those kinds of latex swords are illegal in all contact LARPs because LARPs don't require eye protection and those points are NOT safe for eyes.

Not at all true. The weapon I linked to is safety-approved for NERO, a nationwide LARP that's got a pretty strong following. And there are several independent LARPS like Red Button Productions in Atlanta that use them.

[Giovanni_d'Alba]

Taking that away from them isn't doing them any favors.

Granted. And I don't seriously want to take anything away from anyone. But I am suggesting that the rules of the game for heavy combat aren't necessarily condusive for creating the best-looking equipment. It hasn't escaped my notice that most Kings do not take the field in historically accurate armor. It's a lot more common to see the top competitors in sport armor disguised under a tunic. Sport armor offers a competitive advantage, and the rules as they stand reward speed more than historical accuracy.

The centerpiece of the SCA - the tool by which we choose the figureheads of the Society every six months - is a contact sport that doesn't look as historically accurate as a lot of venues that don't pursue the Society's mission. It's a glorious, beautiful, thrilling combat sport, but if we're seriously about recreating "The Middle Ages as the Ought to Have Been", there are better ways of doing it. Cut and Thrust does it well, ever rapier does it well. But these are "niche" sports, which don't have the same pre-eminence as heavy combat. If heavy combat is going to remain one of our primary selling tools for the SCA, we need to recognize that the competition for new players is doing a better job of looking like what we aspire to - and some of that is because the demands that the rules of heavy combat impose upon our equipment.

[Giovanni_d'Alba]

As someone who's come from Atlanta, GA - an area that's had an extremely active LARP community and very little SCA activity in my experience - I wanted to point out some things the AA community might not realize.

I can't speak to your experience, but I have trouble believing that there's little SCA stuff going on in the Barony of the South Downs -- one of the biggest and most active groups in southern Meridies.

I imagine it had a lot to with my own circles, but I could never find group that met more than once a month, if that, in Atlanta. And at least one group my wife went to never even bothered to say "hello" when she came to a meeting... time change things, I'm sure, but I can remember going to the crown tournament for Meridies and thinking how small it seemed.

This in comparison to NERO, Chimera Interactive, Wildlands, and SOLAR - four 50+ strong playerbase games in the area. Wildlands has gone, but these days you can add Forest of Doors to the mix. A lot of the people who play these games are kids in socks and t-shirts, but there are also lawyers with disposable income and their wives who play. Some of these people would potentially be SCAdians in other venues... or not. But the door to entry for those LARPs was a whole lot easier, and they kept their member's attention.

[Josh W]

Why? I just can't see the logic At All. Every melee fighter I've ever met who doesn't also do combat archery, in Belegarth, Dagorhir, and the SCA HATES combat archery because it ACTIVELY undermines their fun on the field so some jerkoff can stand in the back and practice his target-plinkin'. Yeah, woohoo, I guess that one jerkoff gets to feel like a god or a wizard just finger-of-death-ing folks with his ultra-armor-piercing-super-instant-death arrows, but it sucks for every single person he blindsides.

While I don't necessarily oppose combat archery, I have to admit, there is truth to this, too. I hates me some finger-of-death-ing, ultra-armor-piercing-super-instant-death arrows, and yet nearly every game has them. Why? Just to make the archer feel useful, I guess.

I still think "Plate is Proof"--as played in the West--is the answer.

It hasn't escaped my notice that most Kings do not take the field in historically accurate armor.

This is also, regrettably, all too true. I remember the very first time my little backwater shire was visited by our king (at least, the first time since I had started playing...), sometime in the early '90s. The other locals had built it up in my mind that this was supposed to be some momentous occasion and we should feel honored. But when the guy finally arrived, he was dressed in a badly-maintained kidney belt, a motorcycle jacket, and a rusty spangenhelm. Needless to say, I was shocked and deeply disappointed. I knew most of the local guys looked like total ass, but our shire was out in BFE, right? I always figured that, somewhere over in the next shire, or in one of the big baronies in my kingdom, there must be people--all those dukes, and knights, and counts that everyone talked about all the time--who actually cared about looking like they were what they pretended to be, and wore real armour instead of the mish-mash of road signs, lumber strapping, and carpet that my local guys wore. And I was supposed to accept that this guy, whose kit looked even worse than that of my locals guys, was my king?!? When I got old enough to venture out on my own and start attending kingdom-level events, I soon learned the ugly truth. But at that time, I knew of no other outlet for my medieval armour interest...

And I still think "Plate is Proof" would help solve this problem, too...

[Sasha_Khan]

If I die to an archer, it means that **I** was not paying enough attention - especially since most of them aren't very good shots at range.

[JvR]

If you want to look like a supreme badass on the field... but lack the skill, talent, and training to back-up the threat implied by your kit... then you're gonna be a very unhappy well-armoured individual.

What if you don't plan on winning anything and don't mind getting killed a lot? I figured I will never play enough to get good but I still wanted a decent looking kit.

I heard my kit is pretty nice. Not "supreme badass" but still nice. If I showed up as a new fighter in a good looking kit, what do older more experienced fighters think? I dont want to be a dick.

Most of us would think "who's that guy and where is he from?" So we would talk to you and discover that you were new, but had taken the time and effort to put together a decent kit. That you did that would make a positive impression. What you did in it would tell us whether or not you were "a live one".

Cool. Only thing I would be doing is listening to instructions, and getting killed ,a lot. I am definitely not a cocky type of guy and definitely wont rely on my pretty Armour to get me by.

I am a pretty humble dude, I think I will be ok going by what you told me. Thanks for the info. Gonna try and make the next practice and make a good looking corpse.

[randver]

sorry did not read all 12 pages.
but here's my 2 cents.
the same people wanting every one to have period encampments and armor started playing in earth pimples and carpet armor. they would have never joined and stayed if they had to deal with the requirements they want held now.
also are local wars are no longer as fun or draw as many people, do to camp fire curfews here in southern California. and noise curfews being put in place by the same people that used to party all night but are now older and have family's. but don't want to sleep in the areas that have always had them for the people that don't want the noise all night.
if it will legally/safely get you on the field then lets fight and HAVE FUN. save the crying for it to be period for tournaments. wars are supposed to be fun for everyone.
i started fighting in a helmet that looked like carp that someone helped me make. a sheet with a hole in it for a tabard over hockey shoulder pads. i now have over 2k invested in my armor. if i had had to spend that much up front to play i would never have joined. i have a period 14 foot viking A-frame that i bring when i go to wars by my self. but when the family comes i bring are earth pimple cause it; takes up less space in the truck, works better for the family, is easier to set up and hall around.

if we want more member we have to make it fun. have your period encampment setting the example and let me have my earth pimple. we all like parting at wars but no one wants it in there camp every night, since where all getting older. then encourage the fringe groups like pirates cause they tend to throw the most partys and we all end up there to party anyways, since there the only nightly party at the war.

[Aaron]

Have we become the Knights of Badassdom?

-Aaron

[Kilkenny]

Taking that away from them isn't doing them any favors.

Granted. And I don't seriously want to take anything away from anyone. But I am suggesting that the rules of the game for heavy combat aren't necessarily condusive for creating the best-looking equipment. It hasn't escaped my notice that most Kings do not take the field in historically accurate armor. It's a lot more common to see the top competitors in sport armor disguised under a tunic. Sport armor offers a competitive advantage, and the rules as they stand reward speed more than historical accuracy.

The centerpiece of the SCA - the tool by which we choose the figureheads of the Society every six months - is a contact sport that doesn't look as historically accurate as a lot of venues that don't pursue the Society's mission. It's a glorious, beautiful, thrilling combat sport, but if we're seriously about recreating "The Middle Ages as the Ought to Have Been", there are better ways of doing it. Cut and Thrust does it well, ever rapier does it well. But these are "niche" sports, which don't have the same pre-eminence as heavy combat. If heavy combat is going to remain one of our primary selling tools for the SCA, we need to recognize that the competition for new players is doing a better job of looking like what we aspire to - and some of that is because the demands that the rules of heavy combat impose upon our equipment.

Giovanni, serious question. How much time in SCA harness do you have?

Because I'm getting the impression that you've read a bunch of threads here on the Archive and formed an opinion about how it all works, but don't actually have much experience in the gear.

I'm entirely sure you really aren't in a position to talk about "most of the Kings", considering I've been around 35 years, a knight for over 31 of those years, and I would not try to speak of what "most of the Kings" wear. Oh, and I've been one of those Kings My harness has run quite a gamut over the years.

But let's get back to some of your observations. You are trying to define the game for others. Frankly, that's the opposite of the "big tent" concept. The fighting is the showiest thing we do. That doesn't make it the most important thing we do. In the opinions of a good number of people, it detracts from what we really ought to be doing and has far too much importance attached to it. You won't see those opinions here - the people who feel that way don't wish to spend their time on a forum that's dedicated to something they at best do not appreciate. At worst, they don't have any tolerance for stick jocks and define stick jock as person who fights in the SCA.

The whole thing with the big tent is that the people who fight with sticks accept the people who fight with car antennae accept the people who don't fight at all accept the people who shoot things and vice versa all the way around. The people who make fantastic clothing accept the people who make "an attempt" accept the people who redact recipes from manuscripts in the original language accept the people who bring a snack tray from the grocery store, etc. The 10th century Saxons accept the 16th century Bolognese accept the 14th century French accept the 12th century Burgundian.

The SCA is Calahan's Cross-Time Saloon for the middle ages and renaissance. It can be muddled and confusing, but it can also be brilliant. But - fundamentally what it is is a broad spectrum of world history, with occasional peaks of really intense focus in a time and place, that provides a vast array of people with multiple skills and interests a place to share their passion.

And as long as we share, instead of trying to tell those whose passions differ from ours that they should leave, it works fantastically well.

[maxntropy]

What if you don't plan on winning anything and don't mind getting killed a lot? I figured I will never play enough to get good but I still wanted a decent looking kit.

I heard my kit is pretty nice. Not "supreme badass" but still nice. If I showed up as a new fighter in a good looking kit, what do older more experienced fighters think? I dont want to be a dick.

Johannes:

It was great meeting you yesterday, and I fervently hope you'll be coming around more often, hanging out, and maybe letting us teach or reteach you how to fight some more.

One-on-one and at practices and the like, folks who show up or who show back up with nice stuff SHOULD (and often, if not always, are) be treated as new folks with nice stuff -- and then talked with to determine if they've been playing for years and "levelled-up" to the good stuff, or if they just started out in the right direction.

A melee is another thing entirely... you usually don't have a chance to talk with a person to determine if they're a newcomer who has focused on the quality of kit beyond the norm, or a supreme badass whose spent years getting their rig to where they want it. As a result... it's usually safest to assume the latter and treat somebody on the field in a melee with a nice gettup as a veteran who has been fighting for years.

Come out to practice, suit-up, and I assure you will be fought and trained appropriately.

Max Von Halstern

[maxntropy]

the same people wanting every one to have period encampments and armor started playing in earth pimples and carpet armor. they would have never joined and stayed if they had to deal with the requirements they want held now.

also our local wars are no longer as fun or draw as many people, do to camp fire curfews here in southern California. and noise curfews being put in place by the same people that used to party all night but are now older and have family's. but don't want to sleep in the areas that have always had them for the people that don't want the noise all night.

i started fighting in a helmet that looked like carp that someone helped me make. a sheet with a hole in it for a tabard over hockey shoulder pads. i now have over 2k invested in my armor. if i had had to spend that much up front to play i would never have joined. i have a period 14 foot viking A-frame that i bring when i go to wars by my self. but when the family comes i bring are earth pimple cause it; takes up less space in the truck, works better for the family, is easier to set up and hall around.

if we want more members we have to make it fun. have your period encampment setting the example and let me have my earth pimple. we all like partying at wars but no one wants it in their camp every night, since where all getting older. then encourage the fringe groups like pirates cause they tend to throw the most partys and we all end up there to party anyways, since there the only nightly party at the war.

Good old plain-talk from an Orkney. Trust me when I tell ya that when I was hanging out with all y'all back in the 90's, there was absolutely no lack of partying and such.

I absolutely agree. The old-guard (now the majority -- and sadly, I suppose I are one) have naturally aged and largely forgotten or choose to forget what they themselves were like when they started -- and have largely lost patience in the young whippersnappers and their unwholesome ways of fun. Throughout my first three Pennsics I had a pup tent and cooler of bologna sandwiches which were almost my sole sustenance for the duration (and my first legs were bright yellow shag carpet). We all need to be aware and respectful of the SCA participant life cycle and do what we can not only to progress and improve the "elite" tail-end of authenticity, but also pull newcomers and participants at all stages of the life cycle forward with patience, understanding, welcoming, example, and guidance. This is exactly what I mean -- in practice -- when I talk about the choice about being a "big tent" and inclusive organization (being broad and open at the front-end of the life cycle) versus being a "small tent" organization that's more exclusive and primarily for the "elites".

Max Von Halstern

[JvR]

What if you don't plan on winning anything and don't mind getting killed a lot? I figured I will never play enough to get good but I still wanted a decent looking kit.

I heard my kit is pretty nice. Not "supreme badass" but still nice. If I showed up as a new fighter in a good looking kit, what do older more experienced fighters think? I dont want to be a dick.

Johannes:

It was great meeting you yesterday, and I fervently hope you'll be coming around more often, hanging out, and maybe letting us teach or reteach you how to fight some more.

One-on-one and at practices and the like, folks who show up or who show back up with nice stuff SHOULD (and often, if not always, are) be treated as new folks with nice stuff -- and then talked with to determine if they've been playing for years and "levelled-up" to the good stuff, or if they just started out in the right direction.

A melee is another thing entirely... you usually don't have a chance to talk with a person to determine if they're a newcomer who has focused on the quality of kit beyond the norm, or a supreme badass whose spent years getting their rig to where they want it. As a result... it's usually safest to assume the latter and treat somebody on the field in a melee with a nice gettup as a veteran who has been fighting for years.

Come out to practice, suit-up, and I assure you will be fought and trained appropriately.

Max Von Halstern

It was great talking with you as well and will try and make practice Wednesday.

[JvR]

ok topic related.

Couple things I see as hindering growth. From my perspective of course.

Media relations. The SCA or its members for the most part, fear the media. When I was deputy Hospitaller, most anytime I mentioned media, newspapers, TV, anything even remotely connected. It was met with what I would call fear and was shot down pretty much immediately as a universally bad idea.


In my area, HEAVILY populated South Florida, the SCA had and still basically has a few handfuls of people while my Kingdom in Adria had almost 200 members in the county alone along with 2 other thriving Duchies with numbers over 50 each. Biggest things I noticed were. They were not afraid of the media. Whenever they did a demo, they made sure the media was present. At a Crown War, there was reporter and his photographer. They definitely got the word out about themselves often. SCA? not hardly.

It isn't hard to get a local reporter to do a piece about your group. It wont be a huge article but it will be covered. Why is the SCA so afraid of that? (might be different in your area)

Now the Media Relations officer for my Kingdom is a different person from back then and I understand she is pretty good but I haven't been very active so I should check to see what can be done now she is in charge of it.

I know some areas are probably good with media relations but I know there are some that sees it as a taboo or does not even bother to use it.

I have seen some very good stuff on YouTube (the gulf wars one called SCA TV Spot covered was done well and was flattering). We need more.

Max thanks for starting this topic as its helped relight the spark. It motivated me to go the the event yesterday and after talking to you and your enthusiasm, I definitely want to get more active again. It also made me realize what it is in the SCA that is my thing I guess. I know everyone have their thing they prefer. I guess mine is seeking out others and showing the the society. When I joined I originally told myself I wanted to get 10 people to join or rejoin. Some came and went but the number was reached.

Just yesterday, I was elated to find out a few folks were there because they found us on the Meetup page I created a while back. It definitely helped to see the rewards of my previous labor and am so glad the Shire decided to keep the page and use it to their well being and growth. Its money I do not regret spending. Actually the recent ones are not my credit, our Marshal stepped up as Hospitaller and has been running the Meetup page since I handed the page off to the Shire and has been doing a great job at it.

While I dont want office or award (seriously, my persona would never be addressed as "lord" anyway)Having local events with hundreds in attendance will be reward enough. I do hope to still help the SCA and my local Shire grow. I am not organized or active enough to keep it up, but I can certainly find stuff for us and give it to the outstanding Hospitaller and his deputy. I know if I find us a golden opportiny, they will work it right.

Johannes

ok I feel better, here is to the SCA's growth and health.