New bits of armour - have a look

[wcallen]

Most of these are not all that interesting, but I just came home from a trip and I have taken some pictures of some new pieces I have.

This one image of most of the new bits:



Bigger picture:
http://www.allenantiques.com/images/Jul ... arsons.jpg

I also have a box full of rusty bits of a Turkish "mail and plate" shirt (I think it is actually parts of 2 of them, but no idea how much is really there). I don't know how I will catalogue them.

The other pieces are on the web site in appropriate places with bigger images.

The most interesting are probably:

http://www.allenantiques.com/A-186.html
http://www.allenantiques.com/A-200.html
http://www.allenantiques.com/A-185.html
http://www.allenantiques.com/A-199.html

Have fun.

Wade

[Otto von Teich]

Nice score Wade! Some rare stuff, the crusty one with the compression lames covering the inside of the elbow isnt seen very often. And the early peices...wow!

[wcallen]

That was the stuff from 3 sales. I consolidated all of them. I still need to take some pictures of one of the gauntlets.

And yes, this pile is atypical. Finding anything pre-1550 is hard. Pre-1500 is really hard.

This was a pretty good set of sales for me.

The early arm and 2 of the elbows are from Claude Blair. The arm has H. Russell Robinson (of the Royal Armouries back when they had an armour shop in the Tower) restorations. A completely whole one with no restorations would be better... but if I have to have restorations, I will take them marked and with a known name.

Wade

[Galfrid atte grene]

Wow, that 1430 arm! Fantastic, thanks for sharing.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

(HHR almost certainly represents H. Russell Robinson)

HHR=HRR typo?

[wcallen]

HHR, HRR, yea, a typo. Fixing it in the source for the web site. I will try to remember to regenerate and upload. I bet that there are other typos, I was sitting on the bed in the hotel tossing info into the descriptions. A few more pictures and a careful edit are in order.

Anyway, have fun with the new stuff. Once I decide how to clean up the nasty black arm with the inner elbow plates I think I will have a pretty good assortment of stuff for studying how arms are supposed to work. A real change from a year or so ago when I had very few arm pieces. Now I can't find good places to put all of them. A problem I am sure I can handle.

Wade

[Otto von Teich]

Well Wade, if you run out of room, I'm prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice, and store a portion of it for you...for free!

[Pitbull Armory]

Wow nice new items Wade. I wonder why they put the stopribs on the outside of the arm and not the inside to protect the exposed inner joint?

I love the leg armors center ridge on the cop and the way the lames are all the way under the cop, Even with 4 lames they dont seem to touch each other on the inside in a straight position.

I wonder why the bottom edge of the demi greave is only rolled on the inside.

I cant wait to see closeups of the inside on the enclosed arm **( Those really interest me.

thanks for sharing

Have a good week

Andy @ Pitbull Armory

[Keegan Ingrassia]

I -love- how that Spanish leg has that raised ridge, strengthening the transition from cop to wing.

And that gorget/almain collar? I -want- that!

[wcallen]

Wow nice new items Wade. I wonder why they put the stopribs on the outside of the arm and not the inside to protect the exposed inner joint?

The modern inner lame appears to be a pretty good interpretation. The upper edge near the elbow is just flaired out - forming a stop-rib from the material of the plate. This serves the same function pretty effectively.

I love the leg armors center ridge on the cop and the way the lames are all the way under the cop, Even with 4 lames they dont seem to touch each other on the inside in a straight position.

The lames are pretty narrow. Real ones often are. In this case there are 4 total so they don't have to move all that much in each one. These don't come close to touching. Several of the real arms I have actually have lames that overlap.

I wonder why the bottom edge of the demi greave is only rolled on the inside.

I have seen the same thing on the archer's knees in the Musee de L'Armee in Paris. I have no idea why they did this, but it seems to be something they did. It certainly doesn't fit with our modern way of thinking.
There is actually a little bit of a flair on the outside that helps it fit to the expansion of the calf. Other than that, it is plain.

I cant wait to see closeups of the inside on the enclosed arm **( Those really interest me.

These are a pretty rare thing. They appear to have been used on some early 16th c. pieces, some mid-late 16th pieces and some 17th c. pieces. Not common, but not unknown.
Don't put them on a 15th c. or 14th c. arm. They did do some with a few plates, but they weren't done this way. They just extended the main plates a little.
I have now played with several of them. The general idea seems pretty straightforward. A central wider plate and a series of narrow arched plates going in both directions. I will try to get inside/outside shots of this one pulled out of the arm. I think that they will be better after the paint is cleaned off. I don't know when I will get around to that.

Most of the ones I have seen appear to be directly attached to the arms at the end. This one is different. The plates are actually (or were, most are gone) secured by leathers to the upper and lower cannons of the vambrace. Some of the leathers are still there and all of the rivets are still there to secure it. This means that the whole thing really just floated in the arm and wasn't really solidly attached to anything. This seems atypical. None of the ones I have played with were actually attached to the cop in any way. They are secured in some way at the ends and float in between.

thanks for sharing

Have a good week

Andy @ Pitbull Armory

No problem, happy to share.

Wade

[wcallen]

I cant wait to see closeups of the inside on the enclosed arm **( Those really interest me.

Take a look now:

http://www.allenantiques.com/A-195.html

The new images should give a basic idea of how the inner elbow plates actually work.

Wade

[Pitbull Armory]

Nice thank you. Its funny you brought up earlier arms having short extensions that collapse on the vambrace. I was just playing with an idea last week on my newest set of arms that had a compression lame on the wrapper. Can you suggest any names I could search to see any originals like this?

The pics of the cased arm are awesome thank you for posting. It looks like the compression part works alot like some of the sabatons ive seen. Can you tell me the approximate width of the center plate at the widest part?

It looks like the first lame on both sides of it are hinged on the same rivet through the center piece yes?

Last question (for now:o) are the outer articulation rivets (on the compression part) hard riveted together or were they on leathers?

thanks again for your time and info


Take care

Andy @ PBA

[Otto von Teich]

I cant wait to see closeups of the inside on the enclosed arm **( Those really interest me.

Take a look now:

http://www.allenantiques.com/A-195.html

The new images should give a basic idea of how the inner elbow plates actually work.

Wade

Thanks Wade, those pics answer alot of questions! Secured by leathers to the inner plate of the lower vambrace! Wonderful that there are still bits of the old leather.

[Johann ColdIron]

Nice trove there Wade! The next armour study just got more subject matter.

Could I use the articulated gorget for Pennsic?

[wcallen]

Nice trove there Wade! The next armour study just got more subject matter.

Yup, I think so.

Could I use the articulated gorget for Pennsic?

Nope. But you can look at it to make your own.

Actually it has a nice thickness and look. The leathers are all there and appear sound. It is probably quite usable as-is unlike most of the armour I have.

But even I wouldn't do something like that to real armour.

Wade

[Benedek]

Nice score.....I'd be really interested in seeing the Turkish maille-n-plates. I've not been able to see real good close ups of actual pieces.

[wcallen]

You won't like the plates from the mail-and-plates....

try this:

http://www.allenantiques.com/images/A-192-part.jpg

They are ... rusty and fragmentary. There are a lot more plates where they came from, but no more interesting. just more plates. All pretty rusty.

If you look closely at the small one near the bottom center you can see etching all over it. The rest may have looked that way at some point too.

Wade

[Benedek]

You won't like the plates from the mail-and-plates....

try this:

http://www.allenantiques.com/images/A-192-part.jpg

They are ... rusty and fragmentary. There are a lot more plates where they came from, but no more interesting. just more plates. All pretty rusty.

If you look closely at the small one near the bottom center you can see etching all over it. The rest may have looked that way at some point too.

Wade

Now that is a great set. What other info do you have for it? I've been looking at creating something very similar to this for my kit. Especially the "collar" and the spade shoulder cops.

Thanks
Benton

[Johann ColdIron]

Nice trove there Wade! The next armour study just got more subject matter.

Yup, I think so.

Could I use the articulated gorget for Pennsic?

Nope. But you can look at it to make your own.

Actually it has a nice thickness and look. The leathers are all there and appear sound. It is probably quite usable as-is unlike most of the armour I have.

But even I wouldn't do something like that to real armour.

Wade

Pennsic is indeed hard on things! As a museum professional I couldn't, in good conscience, actually do it.

After Pennsic I would love to pick your brain and trove for a good articulated gorget pattern that would work with my Burgonet and late period gear. I have some issues with my shoulders that will make it challenging.

[wcallen]

John,

As long as you are willing to have a Gorget from Augsburg, I think the pattern on my new one is actually a very good and practical one. It is pretty small in the base and has good movement in the upper plates. It even opens up pretty nicely.

You could do up a nice burgonet to match with the nice sweepy comb instead of the well-defined angular one. Nah, that is going to far in the purist direction.

Just ping me and we can use it as a discussion tool. Someday soon Tom will wander by and he will probably decide to work from it too.

Wade

[Johann ColdIron]

John,

As long as you are willing to have a Gorget from Augsburg, I think the pattern on my new one is actually a very good and practical one. It is pretty small in the base and has good movement in the upper plates. It even opens up pretty nicely.

You could do up a nice burgonet to match with the nice sweepy comb instead of the well-defined angular one. Nah, that is going to far in the purist direction.

Just ping me and we can use it as a discussion tool. Someday soon Tom will wander by and he will probably decide to work from it too.

Wade

Cool! That kind of detail is what I need. My clavicle(s) moves up before my shoulder completes it's range of motion so there is a smaller shelf to rest the collar on. Still want steel there for impact resistance and to act as a bit of a cervical collar. New burgonet is in the future as well. I'd like to do it as a two piece riveted as we talked about last time I was there. It'd be a nice fall project. I"ll ping when Pennsic has subsided.

[Jason Grimes]

"not all that interesting", he says.

On the German couters, I know these were attached to the arms by pins on leather straps. Have you ever seen an extent pin/leather survival? The holes look very large so the pins must have been pretty large themselves. Or do you think that these went on over fan-less couters? Thanks for showing us your cool new toys.

[wcallen]

"not all that interesting", he says.

On the German couters, I know these were attached to the arms by pins on leather straps. Have you ever seen an extent pin/leather survival? The holes look very large so the pins must have been pretty large themselves. Or do you think that these went on over fan-less couters? Thanks for showing us your cool new toys.

I have seen what appear to be possibly original pins. Yup, just pins attached to the leather that bridges between the upper and lower. They are pretty big, but they don't have to be quite that big. a little slop is OK as long as the thing used to secure the pin is big enough. They can be done with either a slot for a cotter pin or a sprung wedge. I don't honestly remember which the ones I have seen used. Both are used on Spaulders/pauldrons for the same thing.

I have several other similar holes in elbows.

Wade

[Jason Grimes]

Thanks Wade,

Do you remember if there was some sort of plate/metal interface between the leather strap and the pin? I know that more pauldron/spaulder pins were attached to a hinged metal plate that was riveted to the gorget. Did they attach the pin to a plate which was then attached to the leather, or did they just attach the pin directly to the leather? Thanks again.

[wcallen]

Thanks Wade,

Do you remember if there was some sort of plate/metal interface between the leather strap and the pin? I know that more pauldron/spaulder pins were attached to a hinged metal plate that was riveted to the gorget. Did they attach the pin to a plate which was then attached to the leather, or did they just attach the pin directly to the leather? Thanks again.

Well.... Not sure.

What I do know is what I did when I had to make a similar fitting for a pair of munions.

First - You can see a full pair of arms like this in CH S116 on page 329 of the new volume of the new Churburg catalogue. It has spring pins on the pins.

Anyway... What I did was put a little steel plate on the base of the peg to keep it lined up and so it would sit up straight, then the leather, then a washer so I could pein the pin. so it was sort of just 2 washers sandwiching the leather with the back of the pin as the rivet. It seems to work.

There are other elbows with the same big hole on page 279 of the same Churburg volume.

Wade

[Jason Grimes]

Thank, that is kind of like what I was thinking. After thinking some more, I think I remember a pair of spaulders in the Negroli book that had some leathers and pins attached? I will check when I get home tonight and see.

[Jason Grimes]

Thank, that is kind of like what I was thinking. After thinking some more, I think I remember a pair of spaulders in the Negroli book that had some leathers and pins attached? I will check when I get home tonight and see.

Well I looked but it was not spaulders, but a pair of couters from the palm-branch garniture. They didn't use pins, but were instead tied on.

[wcallen]

I don't have any more really useful information, but I uploaded a few more pictures.

file:///C:/data-wade/allenantiques/tmp/A-196.html

and more of the rusty bits in a completely annoying display:

http://www.allenantiques.com/A-192.html

Wade