14th Cent. man’s shoulder opening cloak

[Jess]

I am going to make a calf length, wool, faux fur lined version of one of these. I am just in the planning stage at this point and am trying to gather all info before I cut into my expensive faux fur. I am nervous because I have never worked with faux fur before, never made a cloak, and have never made a lined cloak. So I am well outside my comfort zone.

Has anyone made one? Do you go with the Boksten half circle shape or use some other shape? Any resources or lessons learned that you are willing to share? Thanks!

[Keegan Ingrassia]

I will be watching this thread very closely. No input for you, unfortunately, but this is on my list of projects.

Progress pics are our friends!

[Tracy Justus]

I've made several of the Boksten style cloaks. I make mine to button at the shoulder rather than being a slip-on as the Bocksten cloak was. (Bliiy and Charlie make a jumbo button that is good for this purpose.) If you are new to cloak making I suggest you do a mock-up (an old sheet works well) to establish the size of the neckhole, the shoulder dart and shaping and the overall length. Then use the mockup for your pattern.

When I work with fur (real or fake) I mark my cutting lines on the back side (chalk, pen or sharpie) of the material and cut from the back so I can avoid cutting the hairs of the fur. When cutting real skin I use a sharp razor knife. For fake I use scissors, going slowly and making sure I'm only cutting the backing. I sew with a narrow seam allowance (about 1/4" for fake, less for real) and zigzag the pieces together, right sides together, trying to keep hair from being sandwiched in the seam. Any fur that gets caught in the seam can be teased out from the right side- I usually use a seam ripper but a comb might be easier.

No matter how careful you are fur will make a mess.

HTH, Tracy (Clare de Crecy)

[Luca Sogliano]

Do you already own the fake fur? Because you can get the real thing for not too much money. http://www.hideandfur.com/inventory/Dressed.html?Google

[Jess]

I will order it tonight. I want faux vair and I dont want to pay for the real thing or sew them all together. This is going to be enough of a learning experience as is.

[Rana]

Where you getting faux vair from, if you don't mind me asking?

I've only worked with Persian lamb, but I followed exactly the same methods as Tracy Justus with great results.

[Jess]

http://www.mendels.com/furswatch/F62gylg.jpg

I was going to use this. It was the only faux squirrel I could find on the net.

[Rana]

Interesting! Looks like they have a potential ermine substitute as well:



Good luck, I'd love to see how your cloak turns out!

[Gregoire de Lyon]

When I tried making a side button cloak everything went swimmingly until I tried adding a hood.

The hood - to - should transition just doesn't seem practical, as you end up with flaps every which way to prevent gapping.

I think that Bertus's hood under cloak approach is a very elegant solution!

[Jess]

What shape was your cloak? Were you trying to sew an attached hood? Or just wear with a hood? Was the cloak lined?

[Gregoire de Lyon]

What shape was your cloak? Were you trying to sew an attached hood? Or just wear with a hood? Was the cloak lined?

I believe it is a full circle cloak for fullness and luxury. I was trying to attach the hood to the cloak, as this appears to be the style for the mid-late 14th century side buttoned cloak. Ultimately, this did not work out for me. The pattern that we came up with (Costuming Laurel, my wife and I) just didn't work. At all. I've decided to finish it without an attached hood and wear a separate hood with it.

[Jess]

Are you able to offer any theories about why it didn't work?

[Gregoire de Lyon]

Are you able to offer any theories about why it didn't work?

I am, but it would probably be easier to show you. Are you going to be at Coronation or TOC?

[Jess]

See you at Toc. thank you!

[Tailoress]

I've decided to finish it without an attached hood and wear a separate hood with it.

This is what I would recommend. You can wear the hood over or under; either works. The Bocksten Man had both on at the time of his death, though it's unclear whether the hood was under or over the cloak. The top portion of his clothing was a bit scattered when he was exhumed.

[Karen Larsdatter]

I believe it is a full circle cloak for fullness and luxury. I was trying to attach the hood to the cloak, as this appears to be the style for the mid-late 14th century side buttoned cloak. Ultimately, this did not work out for me. The pattern that we came up with (Costuming Laurel, my wife and I) just didn't work. At all. I've decided to finish it without an attached hood and wear a separate hood with it.

Apologies for the clumsiness of this reply; I posted something longer, but our internet access went out just as I clicked the Submit button, so now I'm typing this on my phone.

In any case - I have found (iirc) no evidence for attached hoods on shoulder opening cloaks (nor any evidence to indicate a full circle instead of half circle, fwiw). See www.larsdatter.com/cloaks.htm and www.larsdatter.com/hoods.htm

Of course, if you have images/evidence for attached hood + open at shoulder, I'd be happy to revise the linkspage to add 'em.

Attached hoods do appear on outerwear like the gardecorps - see www.larsdatter.com/gardecorps.htm for examples, though this is neither shoulder-opening nor prevalent in the later 14th century (though there are related occupational robes iirc for doctors).

[Gregoire de Lyon]

Hi Karen-

Here are some of the pictures that I referenced when designing my cloak:







It looks to me that the hoods are attached in these images, especially in the first picture - the depiction of the sins -with the styling hat on top of the raised hood.

In others images not linked here, there are buttons going up the throat, which at least to me, would indicate that it is something more than a simple pull it over your head style hood, and we extrapolated some sort of integrated hood since two sets of buttons would be required to integrate a hood anyways.

The depictions here do not seem like full round cloaks, I agree. However, I wanted fullness in my design, so seem to recall cutting it out as a very large circle that opened up one side. I'll double check when I get home tonight, because now I am curious!

[Tailoress]

I see where you went with it Gregoire, but I'm not convinced of the utility of a full, pull-over hood integrated with a cape that buttons on the shoulder. If the same effect could be achieved by a hood worn under the cape, why not do it that way? It's less clumsy than managing the heavy folds of the cape while trying to pull the hood over your head, and then buttoning the shoulder closed. And hoods were versatile and utlitarian. Why waste the time sewing one up that can only be used with the cape because it's attached to it, when you can wear it around in less cold circumstances sans cape and then wear it under the cape when needed?

The examples you posted have the added question evoked by lack of artistic color palette variety (grisaille, etc.). Also, those hoods are all portrayed rather tightly. Why would the artist portray the shoulder buttons but not also portray closures for the fronts of the hoods too, if they're as tight as shown in those images? Just some thoughts. Interesting subject though, and thank you for posting those images. If you are able to post any with two sets of buttons, that would be cool to see, and I'd agree with you that it could be good evidence for your theory.

-Tasha

[Gregoire de Lyon]

If the same effect could be achieved by a hood worn under the cape, why not do it that way?

Absolutely agreed. In addition to how awkward it is to get closed, there are "flaps" (for lack of a better term) that need to be tucked and folded away to make the integrated hood work. Ultimately, it is very non-functional which is why I've decided to finish the cloak without an integrated hood!

If you are able to post any with two sets of buttons, that would be cool to see, and I'd agree with you that it could be good evidence for your theory.

Happily! (Hmmm... I thought I had more....)

[Gregoire de Lyon]

The image of the Wool Merchant from Karen's site also shows the front throat buttons...

[Tailoress]

Thank you, Gregoire! Of course, just to be contrary, I also need to point out that it could still be just a separate hood under the cape -- one that buttons up.

[Gregoire de Lyon]

Thank you, Gregoire! Of course, just to be contrary, I also need to point out that it could still be just a separate hood under the cape -- one that buttons up.

Absolutely. That possibility had never occurred to me when I started designing mine (and when I say "I" started designing, I really mean that I was working closely with people who know how to do that sort of thing...)

In fact it wasn't until I saw Bertus' fantastic impression that it ever even crossed my mind that you could wear a hood under the cloak!

[Karen Larsdatter]

In fact it wasn't until I saw Bertus' fantastic impression that it ever even crossed my mind that you could wear a hood under the cloak!

There's actually a few like that in http://larsdatter.com/cloaks.htm IIRC - aha! BNF Nouvelle acquisition latine 1673, fol. 90 (early 15th century Tacuinum Sanitatis) is one such example, since here the hood and cloak are actually different colors, but there are a few others listed there from the same manuscript where the hood is worn on top of the head (like a chaperon).

[Charlotte J]

What shape was your cloak? Were you trying to sew an attached hood? Or just wear with a hood? Was the cloak lined?

I used the Bocksten style half circle cloaks for side opening cloaks for the boys. On them, the cloak is always turning to the front, but it's probably because this time around I didn't bother doing the shoulder shaping on the side opposite the opening.



I've also done some work with fur lining. Tracy covered a lot of what I'd say, but I'll also suggest that you can just bind the edges of the lining, and then tack them into the garment. If you expect to get the cloak dirty and want to take the fur out for washing, just tacking the lining in makes that a little easier.

[Starn]

I used the Bocksten style half circle cloaks for side opening cloaks for the boys. On them, the cloak is always turning to the front, but it's probably because this time around I didn't bother doing the shoulder shaping on the side opposite the opening.

Out of curiousity what sort of shaping did you do to the shoulder opposite the opening Charlotte? Do you form it somehow or was it done with a seam somewhere. Can never get cloaks to wear on me properly.

[Charlotte J]

Sorry if this was already posted, but here's a diagram of the bocksten cloak:

http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-ca ... kclok.html

You'll notice there's a slight slit on the neck directly opposite the opening. If you cut that out and shape it there, it'll sit on the shoulder better and not twist around.

Here's how I do it for women's cloaks, which open in the front:
http://wp.bymymeasure.com/501/quickie-on-cloaks

Might give you an idea.

[Starn]

Thats great info, thank you Charlotte! Will definately put that into effect on my new cloak.