WMA study group in the SCA

[deflagratio]

So I'm looking to form a WMA study group within my local shire. The question is how best is it to organize? Since it involves swinging stuff around does it fall under the Marshallate? Since I want to be able to grapple can I squeeze it in under A&S? Or would it be better for me to just have it as not actually related to the SCA at all thing? What is everyone else's experience.

[jester]

http://www.sca.org/officers/arts/AandS_ ... oposal.pdf

Do it under these rules.

If you want to do anything beyond this, run far, far away from the SCA before you do it.

[Saritor]

The stuff we're doing as a backyard practice is nominally billed as a C&T practice.

Essentially, I treat it as A&S, so I can include grappling (once they get there!) and incorporate slow work for the techniques.

The sparring section does not include grappling (though blade-grabbing was set up as an experiment), but is fought using the Outlands C&T rules.

[deflagratio]

Thanks for the article that is great. Anyone have any advice on running a study group? Also where is a good source for tips for a handwei hand and a half practical sword?

[Blaine de Navarre]

Check out the Caid unarmored combat rules: http://marshal.sca-caid.org/pubs/uc-handbook1.1-20070416.pdf.

I also sent a link to this thread to Duke Guillaume on FB, so he may chime in.

[Marco-borromei]

I did this for 2 years with good success by sticking to these ground rules:

1. This was a SEPARATE, PRIVATE group, not an SCA meeting.
2. The first your members were limited to 10 [my personal limit for the # of students I can fairly manage] and by invitation only
3. I chose only people who [a] had expressed an interest and [b] had some OTHER martial arts experience [non sca]
4. Second year students [to replace a few losses] were voted in by the group
5. Everyone was warned up front that this was intended to be a "dojo" like experience, not an SCA practice/social event
6. 20 minutes of serious stretching every time, mandatory, lead by the members with serious stretching experience [yoga, ballet, hs sports coaches, etc].
7. Detailed curriculum planned out a few weeks in advance [I failed to keep up with this after the first 9 months]
8. Anyone can question, everyone should try to find the answer
9. Skills, techniques, tactics, strategy... build the each step before jumping to the next

We started with Fiore and planned to work through the unarmed, dagger, and longsword sections over a year. We began with the Schola St George manual but quickly outgrew that [2 weeks] and started planning directly from the source text and translations [Tom Leone's is the bomb].

Week 1, stretching, unarmed guards, how to throw a punch, and 8 sword guards
Week 2, stretching, unarmed guards, blocking a punch, 5 more swords guards and 3 cuts
Week 3, stretching, 6 plays from the unarmed section, sword cutting from one guard to the next through all 13
Week 4, stretching, cutting drills [instructor led], unarmed drills to break balance
Week 5, stretching, cutting drills [instructor led], new unarmed drills to break balance
Week 6, stretching, cutting drills [group led], first 6 plays of the longsword

and so on...

What worked well... almost all of the first yearfolks were deadly serious about this and put forth a humbling effort. Switching between 2 or 3 different topics each night kept us from burning out on an entire night of cutting drills or whatever. Being able to link material now to cool things later helped justify some of the early skills. Most of all, having so many diverse martial/sport backgrounds made it possible for us to figure out stuff that wasn't obvious, sometimes by linking to to what other martial arts had taught people to do.

What didn't work as well... 2 of the original group were, um, quitters. Bad choice on my part. We were using free space at a library, with a limited ceiling height and thin carpet when we really wanted a gym with floor pads so we could start throwing each other. We didn't all have the same armor or weapons, so when we got to actual sparring, the pairings were limited. Half the group had rattan gear, half had fencing gear and were building C&T gear. Getting proper safety gear and weapons is where some people ground to a halt. Real life meant a few had to work or study on our regular night. Family issues seriously disrupted my lesson planning time, so some weeks I was just stretching last weeks work. Scheduling problems with the library bumped us a few nights and eventually we had to move to a member's back yard where we were subject to weather and darkness.. By 18 months, we'd turned more into a small SCA group and a few other members tried to re-inject some new direction and excitement. As it was an experiment in teaching for me, I probably missed a lot of opportunities to keep the group together. We'd relied on membership with another WMA school for insurance coverage which turned out to be questionable later.

It was a great success, because everyone went away with new skills they used in either rattan or C&T within the SCA. Everyone enjoyed their time and worked hard. Everyone asked about keeping it going.

I would do a few things different next time. I would pick out a set of basic sparring gear, probably using some of the poly sword simulators available now, and buy 4 sets. That would be enough to keep 2 pairs sparring at a time, rather than rely on people to cobble together stuff on their own.

I'd list out the equipment to get that would get them each SCA C&T ready, and encourage them to invest.

I'd frame out the first year curriculum with break points [you can only get THIS far and then you need your own poly gear, THIS much further and you need your own C&T gear].

I'd layout the entire year lesson plans in advance[ well, I have that now, having developed it through the 2 year experiment].

I'd buy my own martial arts instructor insurance policy and recoup the costs by having the students pay the $40/yr we paid someone else last year.

I'd buy a set of these http://www.getrung.com/24mm-info.html so we could have a grappling floor anywhere.

I'd bribe the previous members to join me as a teaching team, so we could grow this thing.

The point on which I'm still stuck is space. We just couldn't find anything free that was better than the library, even with its limits... but I'd like somewhere that we didn't have to babysit the reservation website to make sure we usually got the room. We didn't find anywhere really cost effective at the time even if we HAD budgeted for the expense. There are lots of empty strip malls that I might be able to lease for space, but I'm in no position right now t take on the startup business risk without a solid marketing plan to get more than 10 students.

Right now, real life stuff keeps be from doing this all again. I still want to.

If any of our wma group is reading this, I'd honestly appreciate anything, good or bad, you'd like to add.

[Aussie Yeoman]

What in the world does A&S stand for?

D

[maxntropy]

Reach out to folks in our WMA in SCA group.

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/wmainsca/

Max Von Halstern

[mackenzie]

Base your study on historic sources

The study group I belong to follows a path similar to Marco-borromei, I am somewhat jealous of his group's better structure and planning.

Guy Windsor is working on an excellent source for Fiore at http://www.swordschool.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

Freelance Academy press is an excellent source for translations and interpretations http://www.freelanceacademypress.com/

You can get Tom Leoni's translation of the Getty manuscript at Darkwoods http://www.darkwoodarmory.com/index.php ... cts_id=166

Participate in events such as http://www.wmaw.us and WMA classes at Pennsic and bring that knowledge back to your group.

some useful maxims:
Don't break your toys (practice partners)
Practice slow to learn fast.
Practice makes permanent.
It takes drilling to build muscle memory
Old muscle memory seems to gets in the way of new muscle memory
KISS
Many of the best teachers and most knowledgeable people on historic fencing are not in the SCA.
The guy who wrote about this in 1409 knew what he was talking about, so if it's not working for me, I am doing something wrong.

(A&S stands for Arts and Science. In may opinion, much of the study of Historical Western Martial Arts inside the SCA falls under the umbrella of A&S because it is not a sport and therefore does not fit well with sport safe rules, but can be studied and taught as a Martial Art as long as no one ends up too broken or perforated)

[jester]

You'll notice a common thread in these messages: Do it outside the SCA.

On another notes, I prefer a study group format rather than an instructor/student format. In the study group format one person takes the lead in organizing classes, but each participant picks a portion of the material, studies it, and presents their findings to the class. Everyone participates.

[geeome]

The SCA's combat rules are, by necessity, geared to make their armored combat safe for everyone - from the "twice a year" beer-drinking war fighter, to the "three times a week" serious athlete. WMA-style activities require A) control and B) trust - and there are an awful lot of SCA fighters I wouldn't trust to control their blows or their techniques enough to do things like grappling or wrestling. If we want a group that can field hundreds of competitors in armor all at once, we're not going to have a group in which WMA is realistic.
That said ... in Caid we're running an "unarmored combat" program that incorporates some WMA-style techniques and activities. We use fencing masks and minimal padding (a gambeson is pretty much maximum protection), and fight to a standard of "blows draw blood through a linen shirt" rather than "blows must be lethal through chain mail and leather." We started using modified shinai, but are now shifting to the Rawlings synthetic swords. We try to focus on techniques from fighting manuals, without being a rigid A&S historical combat research activity (which is to say, there is "free play" involved in our activity as well as study and interpretation). Among the more advanced participants, we are willing to engage in some non-standard, experimental techniques by consent - which is to say, a bit of actual hand/body contact, without going to the extreme of throws, joint locks, or grappling.
Check out the Caid marshal website to download the Unarmored Combat fighting manual (although it's a bit outdated - they're working on a revised edition now):
http://marshal.sca-caid.org/pubs.php
If you have any questions, feel free to write me directly at SirG(at)ChivalryToday(dot)com
Guillaume

[Leo Medii]

What Scott said.

I have found it is easier to study outside the SCA and then try to get the stuff to work inside the SCA. Learning a new set of skills certainly made me a better all around fighter, AND has given me some new insight on SCA combat as well.

[deflagratio]

I just want to thank everyone for your input and let everyone know how it went. We went over a little of everything: the guards and some of the meisterhau. I had a great turnout of aproximately 7 people. I think about 5 of them will continue. Many of them were interested in getting their own steel simulators. Without a rapier marshal practicing within the SCA will be a little difficult so I am working on a time to have an outside the SCA practice and an inside the SCA practice. Everyone was really interested in applying the techniques to armoured fighting so next week I'll be teaching them while in armour so they can do everything at speed.