Question for two-handed sword fighters...

[Glaukos the Athenian]

I just had a little clarification from my knight on something, and I wondered what other people are doing.

The rules of Atlantia indicate that even a gauntleted hand cannot hold the blade of a sword without becoming "injured" and therefore out of the fight. The suggestion was that a fighter interested in using the Talhoffer style of halfswording ( one example here http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... er_066.jpg ) would need to build the sword with a "ricasso", in other words omitting the edge tape on the lower part of the blade, or marking the blade in such a way as to make it clear that its lower part is not a striking or "sharp" surface and can therefore be held safely.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... in_219.jpg


While our rules do not allow us to use the hilt or pommel to strike, the figure on the left is using a pretty advanced technique.

The question is then, how much of the lower 1/2 of the blade of a greatsword or bastard sword is actually used to strike, as opposed to blocking?

Would the loss of the lower part of the blade be so important as to negate tactical the option of halfswording?
Notice this Wikipedia article on half-swording:
Half-sword, in 14th- to 16th-century fencing with the longswords, refers to the technique of gripping the central part of the sword blade with the left hand in order to execute more forceful thrusts against armoured and unarmoured opponents. The term is a translation of the original German Halbschwert. Equivalently, the techniques were referred to as mit dem kurzen Schwert "with the shortened sword."
Page of the Codex Wallerstein showing a half-sword thrust against a Mordhau. (Plate 214)

Half-sword is used for leverage advantage when wrestling with the sword, as well as for delivering a more accurate and powerful thrust. Both of these are critical when fighting in plate armour, because a slice or a cleaving blow from a sword is virtually useless against iron or steel plate. Most medieval treatises show armoured combat as consisting primarily of fighting at the half-sword; the best options against an armoured man being a strong thrust into less-protected areas such as the armpits or throat or, even better, the same against a man who has already been cast to the ground. Some weapons may have been modified specifically for this purpose, sporting what is called a ricasso. Some longswords had a short ricasso, usually too close to the cross and hilt of the blade for practical use in half-swording except as a point of extra leverage in a thrust. The ricasso on larger swords, such as the two-handed sword, provided a longer area more fitting for gripping during half-swording. Filippo Vadi suggests that a sword be sharp only at the tip. It has been suggested that some swords were left unsharpened in a part of the sword a hand's breadth wide about half-way down the blade in order to facilitate this technique.

In Italian and English, "half sword" refers to a crossing of the sword in the middle of the blade, and by extension the relatively close range at which this takes place. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-sword

I ask this because I used half-swording successfully this past Pennsic at the Tuchux tournament, and am also in the process of finishing a bastard sword for this weekend, and I would like to try different options.

Any comment and advise is most welcome.

Thanks!

Glaukos

[Thomas MacFinn]

I will leave it to others with more experience than I to answer your question. For them here's some background.

Atlantian rules:

3.5.2.4 Weapon Regulations. Atlantia uses the SCA regulations with the following additions:

3.5.2.4.2 Great swords
3.5.2.4.2.1 Greatswords must be 6' or less in overall length.
3.5.2.4.2.2 The grip must be 18" or less.
3.5.2.4.2.3 The portion of the great sword above the quillons (called a ricasso) may be left without edge markings and therefore can be grasped.

3.5.2.4.5 During combat, the blade of the sword may not be grasped. Also the striking surface of a mass weapon or thrusting tip may not be grasped.

I believe many kingdoms are currently experimenting with halfswording rules (without requiring a ricasso) but had a little difficulty finding them on the few kingdom webpages I scanned. Here's a comment I found on the forum:

Don't know how they do it in Aethelmaerc, but for our experimental half-swording rules in Caid, it goes like this:
1. If you have both hands on the hilt (or one hand on the hilt and the other empty), then it can only be used like a normal SCA bastard/great sword - cut or thrust with the blade, butt-spike but no lateral strikes with the pommel, no using the quillons.
2. When you go to half-sword, you can't cut with the blade, but can still thrust, you can use the quillons, and you can do both lateral strikes and thrusts with the pommel.

Personally, I don't see any valid safety reason for not being able to use all parts of the weapon at all times, but them's the rules.

[Glaukos the Athenian]

Well that kinda of does it I guess. I completely ( and embarrassingly) forgot to look at the Atlantia marshals page and looked only on the society one...

I guess I can build a ricasso into my sword, but only be able to do half-swording outside of Atlantia.

According to the experimental rules in Caid, I imagine one would have to pad the quillion and pommel of a two-handed sword before using these techniques for striking. Still it is a step ahead.

There is a long tradition of advanced sword techniques, and it would be cool to be able to incorporate them into our fighting in a safe manner.

That sort of answers my question.

Thanks!

Glaukos

[Thomas MacFinn]

The question is then, how much of the lower 1/2 of the blade of a greatsword or bastard sword is actually used to strike, as opposed to blocking?

^ That was the question I didn't feel qualified to answer.

[Kenwrec Wulfe]

I do not know Atlantian rule, but the standard "half swording" rules are that a fully gauntleted hand can grasp YOUR OWN blade, without injury.

[white mountain armoury]

I have been half swording for about as long as I have been fighting.
I have the entire edge marked, no ricasso.
I ask my opponent before the match if they mind, some do, some dont.

[Dietrich von Stroheim]

Glaukos,
I wrote you a nice long reply, but the interwebs appear to have devoured it. Anyway. I will strike with the bottom half of the sword in certain situations. If an opponent with a big shield gets in close on me, I shift my body to position my right elbow pinning the shield, while my sword shifts over into a left vom tag. I'll parry the standard wrap shot that gets thrown from here, than twist into a backedge shot (zwerchau) that usually hits with the bottom half of the sword (at this range and angle, anyway).

There are a few other situations where striking that low on the blade is appropriate, but generally the top half is the way to go.

For SCA purposes, the most utility I get out of halfswording is against a polearm fighter, to maintain control of the centerline long enough to close to my ideal range. There is a video or two on my youtube showing how that works.

As far as this ruling re: halfswording, I'm not going to put a ricasso all the way up to the point where I would actually grasp the flat of the blade.

But taking halfswording out of the toolbox really isn't a cause for concern. The greatsword is still a very versatile weapon that allows us many, many tricks in our arsenals.

Have fun with it!

~Dietrich

[Jonathan Baird]

Build a polearm that looks like a great sword.

[Kilkenny]

A kingdom ruling that says you cannot grasp the blade is a kingdom ruling that halfswording is not done in that kingdom. The historic truth of the matter certainly appears to be that people grabbed their own blades to engage in halfswording (and even grabbed their opponents' blades but we'll pass on that as obviously grappling related for now).

So declaring that you can't grab your "sharp" blade without losing use of that hand is a way of banning halfswording without having to say so.

[maxntropy]

Glaukos:

The answer to your question depends to some extent on the style of greatsword that you employ. Some fight greatsword in a more "cowboy" style out at range. Often employing more thrusting and arm-shots and looking for ideal opportunities for quick blows to momentarily less guarded areas. Others employ greatsword in a more in-fighting and aggressive style. More frequently closing to the inner-baseline with opponents (regardless of opponent weapon type) and more often using leverage and "sticky-weapon" techniques to control the opponents weaponry. If you are that more aggressive style of fighter, then I believe you will find yourself using the lower part of your weapon much more often then you might otherwise surmise for zero-stem and short-stem two-handed blows.

Hope that helps!

Max Von Halstern

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Build a polearm that looks like a great sword.

Gideon is correct.

If you want to half-sword with your GS and grab it beyond your kingdom's 18" limit, you must make the striking surface meet the requirements for a PA. You may want to check with your KEM to see if he will allow you to use it as a GS with the entire blade a striking surface if you are only using the 18" grip, and the PA compliant part of the blade as the striking surface if you grip it outside of that 18".

[jester]

Well that kinda of does it I guess. I completely ( and embarrassingly) forgot to look at the Atlantia marshals page and looked only on the society one...

I guess I can build a ricasso into my sword, but only be able to do half-swording outside of Atlantia.

Glaukos

You've lost me. The Atlantian rules state that you may have a ricasso and may grasp it. That would allow you to strike with the portion of the weapon that is still marked as a blade. You can still do half-swording techniques, at the cost of giving up the lower portion of your great-sword blade. (Note: Just a few days ago the Atlantian KEM announced a new ruling prohibiting half-swording was coming soon. So this might be changing.)

I can't answer your original question: how often is the lower portion (forte) of the greatsword used to deliver a blow to an opponent in conventional use in SCA combat.

[Baron Eirik]

The first foot or so above the guard rarely comes into play, even in close, unless you are almost on their shoes. At that close to the guard you run the risk of hitting with the ends of the cross guard (a period practice, but pretty much unusable in SCA combat). That foot could be left un-marked and used for half-swording.

[Glaukos the Athenian]

Well that kinda of does it I guess. I completely ( and embarrassingly) forgot to look at the Atlantia marshals page and looked only on the society one...

I guess I can build a ricasso into my sword, but only be able to do half-swording outside of Atlantia.

Glaukos

You've lost me. The Atlantian rules state that you may have a ricasso and may grasp it. That would allow you to strike with the portion of the weapon that is still marked as a blade. You can still do half-swording techniques, at the cost of giving up the lower portion of your great-sword blade. (Note: Just a few days ago the Atlantian KEM announced a new ruling prohibiting half-swording was coming soon. So this might be changing.)

I can't answer your original question: how often is the lower portion (forte) of the greatsword used to deliver a blow to an opponent in conventional use in SCA combat.

Now I am confused as well, but I think the issue is the apparent contradiction between these two entries:

3.5.2.4.2.3 The portion of the great sword above the quillons (called a ricasso) may be left without edge markings and therefore can be grasped.

3.5.2.4.5 During combat, the blade of the sword may not be grasped. Also the striking surface of a mass weapon or thrusting tip may not be grasped.

If the ricasso is considered part of the blade, then one one cannot grasp it, if the ricasso is considered not a part of the blade but a separate part of the sword, then one should be able to be grasped. We will wait for the interpretation and/or new rule from the KEM to figure this one out I guess.

Thanks!

[Sir Guy]

Sir Theron is the Kingdom Combat in Atlantia. Glaukos, I recommend you get on the Atlantian Marshal list at- marshalls@seahorse.atlantia.sca.org, I am sure you can get there through the Kingdoms Website. Sir Theron does a great job of getting stuff out there and there is also discussion.

Correct...armored combat only.. also riccaso's are perfectly legal as long as they are marked clearly as a non edged surface. (or probably more appropriately clearly NOT marked as an edge)

Sir Theron Andronikos
Atlantia
>
>
> On 10/10/11 6:38 AM, Tom Conti wrote:
> > To the populace of Atlantia;
> > After a lengthy discussion His Majesty, with counsel from his Order
> > of Chivalry, has determined that the technique of halfswording will
> > continue to be banned in Atlantia. A marshal policy banning grasping any
> > blade (including your own) will follow soon. If there are any questions
> > feel free to contact me off this list at Sir_Theron@hotmail.com
> > <mailto:Sir_Theron@hotmail.com>; .
> >
> > Sir Theron Andronikos
> > DEM Armored, Atlantia
> >

[Glaukos the Athenian]

Just sent him an email, to clarify whether the ricasso is or is not "any part of the blade" and whether the use of the ricasso under those circumstances would be included in the Atlantian ban.


Thank you!!!

[Vladimir]

I will, of course, abide by the rule. But I cannot understand why half-sword would be banned.

Unless, they have fears that people will use it as an excuse to use checking blows to the face or attempt a murder stroke with metal quillions on the sword. Both of these would seem horribly irresponsible on the part of the fighter doing so.

Aside from those, I can't see any difference between the use of a half sword longsword or greatsword and a short spear (which are perfectly legal).

As for grabbing our own blade, as opposed to other's blades I think it is an attempt to keep people from gaming the system. Talhoffer states that you can grasp a blade as long as it is not "drawn through the hand".

No fighter in his right mind would draw the blade through the palm of his own hand, so grabbing your own blade is safe.

But, with rattan we can grasp our opponents blade so tightly that it cannot be drawn through, though a real blade might be. So, we simply don't grab their blades.

[Glaukos the Athenian]

Ok.

As I get it from Sir Theron, AS LONG AS THE RICASSO IS MARKED, or rather as long as the ricasso is NOT MARKED AS BLADE, then you can grab it. It is the marked blade that is not allowed for grasping. In other words, as suggested above, the sword becomes as sort of a short polearm with better thrusting capability and two hand blocking option at short range, at the cost of whatever section of the blade you choose not to mark as "sharp", and therefore killing section of the blade.

I think this is works experimenting a bit. (Probably I'll go back to a full blade after getting my butt served on a platter a few times, but still worth the experiment)

Thanks!

Glaukos

[Baron Eirik]

Glaukos, I have a ricasso on my greatsword. I don't use it often, but in a close press, choking up has been useful. But it is mainly when you engaged body-to-body, or nearly so, with your opponent.

[jester]

I will, of course, abide by the rule. But I cannot understand why half-sword would be banned.

Unless, they have fears that people will use it as an excuse to use checking blows to the face or attempt a murder stroke with metal quillions on the sword. Both of these would seem horribly irresponsible on the part of the fighter doing so.

Aside from those, I can't see any difference between the use of a half sword longsword or greatsword and a short spear (which are perfectly legal).

As for grabbing our own blade, as opposed to other's blades I think it is an attempt to keep people from gaming the system. Talhoffer states that you can grasp a blade as long as it is not "drawn through the hand".

No fighter in his right mind would draw the blade through the palm of his own hand, so grabbing your own blade is safe.

But, with rattan we can grasp our opponents blade so tightly that it cannot be drawn through, though a real blade might be. So, we simply don't grab their blades.

Half-swording is not suited to the nature of SCA combat (one shot kills, no grappling or unbalancing) and the Society level rules made very little attempt to implement it in an historically correct fashion. As an example: they allowed you to strike with the blade while half-swording, this allowed you to do the 'crosscheck of death' which, naturally, led the spear and polearm fighters to ask why they couldn't bludgeon guys to death with the haft of their weapons.

I would prefer that kingdoms allow it under special circumstances (a good pas comes to mind) rather than simply outlawing it, but I've come to accept what the Marshal of the Society and the Kingdom Earl Marshal of the Outlands told me back in 2003: If you want to explore historically accurate combat, the SCA is the wrong place to be. Go somewhere else.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Half-swording here is limited to thrusting, which is why my suggestion included padding a section near the tip to function as a PA so that strikes AND thrusts could be done.

[Cuan]

After a discussion with the chivalry of Atlantia (including the DEM for armored combat) the decision was made to continue to prohibit half-swording. There are two reasons for the rule. First, Society rules prohibit the grasping of an opponent's blade. To allow the grasping of an opponent's blade opens the fight up to the possibility that folks will try to grasp a swung bastard sword. I see no good coming from that. So until we have a ruleset to allow the grasping of a blade without reference to whose hand is holding the weapon, things are just cleaner (and arguably safer) this way. Second, I was a high school and college athlete, as were several of our fighters, and I do not want to cross check, or be cross checked, to the chin with a great sword. If I am allowed to hold a length of blade between my hands, it is difficult to legislate a ban on cross checking and seem consistent since this would be the only area in which we have a rule that says you may not strike an opponent with your blade. Cross checking is banned in hockey for a reason. Before anyone raises the point that cross checking is banned in hockey because of the speed of players on skates, let me say that cross checking was also banned in lacrosse (where I once played crease defense with a 6 foot hickory shafted stick). Half swording (if I may use the term generically as a stand in for several highly developed sword play traditions) can be great fun, but it represents a whole system of combat involving grappling,hip checks, trips, throws, pommel and quillion strikes that are not easlily adaptable to our rattan combat rules system. Once you take out all the elements that our rules disallow, half swording isn't really half swording any more. So, in Atlantia, if you want a wider grip, or you want better control on a thrust, or you want a thrusting tip on the grip end of the sword to simulate a pommel strike, then put a ricasso on it and pad up the pommel. But your opponent can grab your ricasso too! Of course, in SCA tourney combat, if your opponent grasps your weapon, there is no need to fight about it; simply let go of the weapon. The marshals will call a hold and make your opponent give you your weapon back.
I hope this clarifies things as to the current situation in Atlantia regarding half swording. I concede that reasonable people may differ on this issue and that our approach creates a bright-line rule that some interested parties will find overly simplistic. Still, as hard as it tries, the SCA cannot, nor will it ever be, all things to all interest groups.
I look forward to your comments.

[Dietrich von Stroheim]

Thanks for the detailed explanation, Your Majesty.

I fight quite a bit of greatsword and have used halfswording in the past, but this ban doesn't take that away very much at all from the weapon form--halfswording in SCA is only useful in certain situations and there exist other options for controlling the center line or thrusting vigorously.

I agree that the halfsword cross-check is not something that should be part of our sport--in my definition, this bit of silliness is automatically banned by the rule that says weapons shall be used in the manner intended (paraphrasing here). But, not all will interpret that the same way I do, so the ruling on halfswording does remove any doubt or confusion.

Bottom line, not being able to halfsword just isn't that big a deal. If you are learning the greatsword weapon form, learn how to do a good zwerchau that goes along the top of the opponent's shield. Learn to aim a rising thrust that comes over your head, down to your left shoulder and strikes horizontally into the opponent's right hip.

There are just more useful and important greatsword techniques than halfswording, to spend your time on.

[Vladimir]

Out of curiosity, has any seen a crosscheck with a sword in any historic manual?

I know there are plenty of historically valid techniques we cannot do, and many we can do that are not historically valid. This is simply to satisfy my own curiosity. Do we have any documented examples of a crosscheck being a technique actively taught to students of the sword?

[Vladimir]

snipped for brevity

--in my definition, this bit of silliness is automatically banned by the rule that says weapons shall be used in the manner intended (paraphrasing here). But, not all will interpret that the same way I do, so the ruling on halfswording does remove any doubt or confusion.

This is true, there have been plenty of arguments on the proper and intended use of particular weapons.

Weapons shall be used in accordance with their design. For example, spears may only be used for thrusting, axes for striking along the edge of the blade, etc..

[Saritor]

Out of curiosity, has any seen a crosscheck with a sword in any historic manual?

Small figures at the top left: http://www.higginssword.org/guild/study/manuals/meyer_illustrations/meyer_longsword_n.jpg

It's not quite a cross-check as described, but it's definitely the same school of halfswording "Oh no you don't!"

At the top on both sides, sort of: http://www.higginssword.org/guild/study/manuals/meyer_illustrations/meyer_longsword_e.jpg

And here in the center: http://www.higginssword.org/guild/study/manuals/meyer_illustrations/meyer_longsword_c.jpg

None of them are exactly what you're looking for, but what I'm going for is saying that what you're thinking of as a cross-check existed in period, but as a jostling precursor to grappling, or just a sudden check to your opponent's weapon (generally by way of the forearms).

Other texts might have some deliberate cross-chequery that doesn't lead to grappling....I'm not sure.

[Glaukos the Athenian]

Thank you, Your Majesty.

Now as one with an accent who has not been raised in hockey or lacrosse, I had to look for the precise definition (Sorry Sir Bryce!) of cross checking and found this: Hitting an opponent with the shaft of the hockey stick, while holding it with both hands. Punishable by a minor penalty or major penalty, depending on the severity of the infraction. I fully agree -for whatever my agreement is worth- that this practice is a tad off for our sport.

But from the example images above, what I see is an upper block and not a cross check.
In other words, cross checking an opponent's weapon while holding yours in both hands is a parry, or a block, not a real cross check.

In particular on the upper left of this image.
http://www.higginssword.org/guild/study ... word_e.jpg
That gentle's is a block, not a strike, since the objective of the grip on the blade is to prevent the opponent's weapon from striking you, not to strike yourself.

As in this picture http://www.taishikai.com/weapons5.JPG the lady is not hitting her opponent, but blocking his attack.

In fact I used this precise blocking technique to good effect at the Tuchux tournament this past Pennsic, which got me thinking about the legality of some aspects of half-swording in our standard type of SCA fighting.


Thanks to Your Majesty and all that took the trouble to explain this to me.

Respectfully,

Glaukos

[jester]

I agree with Glaukos, I don't consider any of those illustrations to be examples of a cross-check.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

Is it possible for every single position one would find their body in, with every single position of their weapon to be represented in a book?

[Therion]

Um ... guys?

The whole point of historical half-swording was that striking with the sword was relatively ineffective against the plates of 14th and 15th century harness; and that by gripping your sword mid-blade it could be used for locks and throws and for accurate thrusts into areas not covered by plate: inner elbow, groin, throat, palms, visor openings, etc.

Locks and throws are obviously out for SCA, and (I repeat myself loudly) THERE"S NO POINT IN HITTING SOMEONE IN ARMOR WITH THE HALF-SWORDED BLADE.

Thusly, with locks and throws out of the equation, the only reason for half-swording is to turn the sword into a very short-range spear (and yes, one can safely grasp one's own sharp blade - no need for "unsharpened ricasso extending midway" rules.)

Ergo, for SCA use, allow grasping of one's own sword so that the sword can be used for thrusts to lightly armored areas only.

(insert "but the SCA presumed armor standard is 11th/12th century maille and leather and doing X would/would not be effective" argument here; lather, rinse, repeat.)

[jester]

Is it possible for every single position one would find their body in, with every single position of their weapon to be represented in a book?

Ah, so we're back to the 'you can't prove they didn't use it' argument? I actually give that argument more weight than most people I know. But we have to admit that absence of proof to the contrary does not constitute proof. We can't prove they didn't use it. And we know that not every technique is represented in the manuscripts because they explicitly tell us so.

But, by the same token, I am unaware of any representation of the crosscheck in martial documents of the time. Further, I would argue that the Society level rule that allows for implementation of half-swording is flawed because it makes the crosscheck with a greatsword a 'killing blow'. Did they crosscheck with weapons? Almost certainly. Was it part of the body of material we have for half-swording? Not that I'm aware of. And if you're going to let the greatsword guys cross check, then why not the polearms and spearmen? It's the same rattan. If the intent is to simulate a stunning blow that would end a fight then it's even the same technique.

[raito]

Thusly, with locks and throws out of the equation, the only reason for half-swording is to turn the sword into a very short-range spear (and yes, one can safely grasp one's own sharp blade - no need for "unsharpened ricasso extending midway" rules.)

I mostly agree, so this comment may be more in the nature of clarification.

Besides the obvious use of halfswording to support a thrust, I have found it useful defensively, to put my weapon in a sturdy position between myself and my opponent's weapon. But I can also do that with a spear, I suppose.

And if Fiore is to be believed in that all weapons are the same, and Jeu de la Hache is to be believed in that pushing your opponent with the demi-hache is useful, it would follow that the cross check is useful in a fight, though not as a maneuver for damaging the opponent.

[Donal Mac Ruiseart]

I understand that ricassos were sometimes covered with leather. I approximate this by wrapping the ricasso area of my great swords with grip tape.

[Baron Eirik]

While we can not use locks & throws in SCA combat, I have found half-swording to be useful in close to control their weapon or shield while positioning for something that IS legal.

[Leo Medii]

Half swording is too advanced for rudimentary combat.